Army Guy

I personally see the sale as a good thing for Canada, I do however find it ironic that the governments present and past would welcome with open arms the sale because it provides jobs and employment for Canadians....And yet we can not arm our own military from the same company and do the same thing, with the added bonus of equiping our own military.

So it is alright to pay cancellation penalties because of a campaign promise such as EH101, but not because of some moral obligation. My comments was directed at current and previous governments.

Yes real change indeed , it is OK to allow another nation to purchase war materials because to keeps employees employed....at yet we can not invest in our own nations military to do the same...

I am truly amazing , but let me ask you this would this info not be more valuable if the government educated the public on all the areas of the survey, describing what is the current condition of the forces, why we are in our current defensive agreements, and what are the consequences both good and bad, on each topic.... or do you believe right now that Canadians are prepared to give educated answers to those complex questions being asked...So the info being collected is some what useful....

I agree with you 100 % that it is up to the serving government to make any policy it wishes while in office. Over the last 40 years Canada has had a reasonable Defense policy, be it a standing white paper, or Defensive agreements. Where the Danger lies is while they may have had those policies in place on paper.....Most serving governments have chosen to do little or nothing to ensure they live up to them. Where I disagree is your point on Canada having no foreign interests, Freedom of movement is one, such as protection from pirates or other nations on Canadian shipping, or aircraft traveling the globe. or part of an alliance that depends on Canada to move troops and equipment to protect others sovereignty IE NATO defensive agreements for example. By keeping outdated equipment past it shelf date, does not make sense for several reasons, It actually cost more to keep running, and to maintain. there is a high chance that it will be easily out class by our enemies, It puts our nations soldiers at greater risk...If Afghanistan showed us anything, it was this point how many soldiers would be alive if they had the proper equipment. And in knowing all that our government still decides to take on more and more missions. Missions that involve combat or placing soldiers lives at risk.... The fact that they are not equipped to do the job means squat to them, and to be frank, it means squat to way to many Canadians.... Now I would agree with downsizing the military if there was some control measures put in place to keep our government from sending them on missions beyond our capabilities...but there are now... What we do know already from previous surveys is 65 % of Canadians believe our forces are under funded, and only 35 % of them believe they are under equipped....This info has been presented to the current government.... But what the public does not know is the true state of our military, where vast fleets of older equipment sit rusted out and unusable, with no replacements in sight, the condition of it's logistical wheeled fleet is devastated, with perhaps 3 out of 10 vehs in operational condition, again no replacements in sight, LAV armoured vehs parked because there are to expensive to operate. Things only get worse as you look at the other elements..... It is in my opinion that if the public knew of this today, I think your survey would show very different results....And for a government that claims transparency , one would think it would atleast educate the public so they can make informed decisions on the survey....But if the entire project is to just get an uneducated results it is a waste of time, money and effort....which brings up the question WHY would a government not want an uneducated opinion ? why ask a survey that gets deep into the weeds and not want the public to atleast have a working understanding and know the consequences good and bad of each of their own choices....What value would you claim to gleen from this....

Perhaps I misunderstood your orginal post then..... "Then we shall make it so and bask in the glory of doing what the voters want." which sounds like hey if we want to stay in power let the voters make the hard choices....like national security, and let them live with it, if the complain we'll hold up the survey..... My question is do we solve complicated issues by what is popular....and what issues in this country are off limits....how about how much politicians are paid, and when do they get raises.....wait a minute, that would not go over very well would it...cancel last....because they would not leave their fate to public opinion would they.....just our national security....or what ever is next on the survey list....

Moonlight Graham : Hit the nail on the head, With the withdrawal of so many NATO countries from the region, along with they're funding....things are not looking good, even when they had the funding their government was very tardy on paying their troops.... Being a soldier in Afghan offers steady employment that is desperately needed in the region, but if they don't get paid regularly, and the bad guys offer a better pay check, that they need to feed their families...

lets run with your idea for a second, if 90 % of all Afghanis are killed by Taliban forces....and im using your logic here would there not be a massive uprising again'st them..... As for the younger generation not knowing the struggle, they have been in conflict for 40 plus years, every man, women, child, dog, goat, has known nothing but conflict.....

That's right big guy because that has been Canada's military secret all along to take over the country and run peaceniks up trees..... Then put your money where your month is, Answer the survey , with informed answers that could or might be policy, and publish it here.....Also if you may add the consequences for each action or comment...Or just take some of the harder questions to start.....

Sure if that's your idea of good governance, have at it.....Why even have a government, why not just a couple of guys that make up surveys.....cut back on all those wages..... Have you read the survey ?, can you answer all the questions, and provide response that could be turned into policy ?

Well, perhaps it your time to step up to the plate then, and try something....anything except chirping on how bad the other guys did.....I know... not how you role....

The point is NOT the giving Canadians opinion on any matter.....The point is what value would the info be, if the general public is not educated on the topic.... It is a waste of time if the government is not going to take 5 mins and explain or educate the public so they can make an informed opinion. Why is that such a hard idea to wrap your mind around..... If NASA based it's space program on the public opinion we would never made it into space...... Instead you and everyone else is pissed because someone has called a spade a spade....the General public are not educated on the topic to make any valuable input.....And if that is the case why bother with the Survey, if anything it will prove that fact Canadians are not prepared or educated enough on the topic to answer...... we will find out in the future on how much weight the current government puts on this survey.

He wasn't trying to get rid of tanks, The government would not fund new tanks, it was trying to keep that capability with the MGS veh....which were much cheaper.....

What Big guy is failing to do is provide an answer that stays within the time lines. Gen Hillier Was selected as Chief of land staff from May 30 2003 until Feb 2004. And from there assume Command of ISAF Afghanistan from Feb 2004 until Aug 2004 Then was given back the role of Chief of Land staff from Aug 2004 until promoted and handed the CDS appoint in Feb 4, 2005.... But here is the catch Gen Hiller suggests in His book A soldier First that Planning to move NATO operations into southern Afghanistan was in the works as early as 2003, BY NATO commanders , and our Government at the time..... As early as 2003, But Gen Hillier was only the Chief of land staff at the time....This fact is not only presented by Gen Hillier in his book, but is confirmed by CDS Gen Henault , at that time period, and then again by Gen Henualt who had moved onto Chair of the NATO Military Committee in Brusels.....at a later date while Gen Hillier is CDS. But also by this article below, dated Sept 27 2004, One month after Gen Hilliers return from Afghanistan from being ISAF commander.....he returned to be the Chief of land staff....and posted to the time line of Afghanistan: A Canadian Story available through the link below....or the National post. Which is more proof that planning was going on.....before Gen Hillier was CDS..... http://www.afghanistanacanadianstory.ca/whats-new/afghan-mission-timelines-news/ NATO had been pushing Hard for a PRT team to be sent into the Heret province in western Afghanistan, However the Government of Canada which included Department of foreign affairs, CIDA and National defense team at the time.......all where looking at Kanadar region during the 2004 time period....who was CDS at the time...Gen Henault .....NOT gen Hiller he was already up to his ass in Afghanistan commanding the ISAF mission....Not only are these facts proven by Gen Hiller, and Gen Henualt , but also verified by several reports who ran those stories which where run after Big guys source book came out.....and of course before the book came out....funny how history works. But that's not all, Big guy and his book wants us to believe that in the very short period of time Gen Hillier is CDS, He must not only develop the political contacts in Ottawa to "As BIG Guy's" book describes bully not only the PM staff, and ministers but the very PM himself.....He must plan and set in motion a vigorous 6 month long training cycle for military pers before deploying, but also plan and move soldiers and equipment from Kabul, to Kandahar ....one would need just 6 months of planning to plan either......this would have to be down in 2004....which it was....amazing.... Big guys book is written by one author that had a dislike for Gen Hillier after he had set her straight on the Myth of Canada's military role as UN peace keepers, in front of her peers, In Gen Hillier style he laid it out to her so their was no mistakes the truth ....she was embrassed and held a grudge....so she does not paint a very faltering picture of Gen Hillier.....in fact she spends page after page on the same topic painting him as a bully.....And Gen Hillier's book it rates barely a couple of pages.... the other co author was one of the PM 's bag boys and was interested in cleaning up his bosses reputation.....but feel free to read both books and judge for your self......Big guy has a man crush on both of them, because if it is written it must be true..... Later in 2005 Gen Hilliers recommends 2 options a rest and recoup time for the troops and equipment, he also advocates for remaining at the Inter National Airport to clean it up and perhaps rebuild most of it which was damaged in the fighting.....But those idea did not get any traction.....So once the government has told him Kandahar it is, he does what he is told, and starts preparing..... So when Kandahar was chosen, by Foreign affairs and CIDA, and DND back in 2004, Canada's commitment was for a PRT or province reconstruction team made up of a couple hundred troops....Gen Hillier took a look at the plan and Advised changes to be made......He insisted on a full Battle group accompany the PRT for security reason....Kandahar after all was the Taliban home town, and although US operations had pushed them out to the fringes , Canada would later engage them in force Operation Medusa.....So the Taliban was there in force..... Lets not forget Gen Hiller had just left Afghanistan as the Commander of ISAF, so he knew most of the country and the security threat levels.....Kandahar would prove to be a major threat area....... So lets recap, I have already explained this to Big guy but he does not read posts longer than 300 words, or so says his monogram at the bottom of his posts....We have established the time line for Afghanistan, who was where and when, we have established that more than one person agrees with Gen Hilliers part of the story, the previous CDS, and the media all confirm planning was being done, and they were looking at other areas of Afghanistan to increase or roll in the nation... WE also establish as part of those plans NATO was pushing for the Heret area, in western Afghanistan....that Foreign affairs also recced the Heret area in the west and the Kandahar in the south....and had recommended Kandahar area....which was approved.... Once Gen Hillier was read into the plan he agreed , providing we could send in a full Battle group for PRT protection, or 2200 soldiers in total..... I also want to point out that all of these final choices where made by the PM, and it is him that bears the full responsibility for those decisions.....Some how Big guy and his source document or book tries to hang or pin the Afghan conflict on the top soldier is beyond me.....

Big guy; This is a public forum, the people that use it, use it for many different reasons, to vent and rant, to express or share opinions, to debate topics and learn from those debates, or just to create chaos. there are no winners or losers crowned in this forum. One of the reason I joined this forum many years ago was their was so much misinformation being spread about topics I had first hand knowledge of, and my goal was to attempt to dispel that misinformation, along the way I have ran into many other posters that I have learned something from or have forced me to take a look at topics from another point of view. And in doing so I have become more informed...While I may not agree on all their positions, I do respect their opinions, well most of them... and will continue to engage with them because one never knows what or from whom you can learn something from. One does not do something for 34 years and not have a passion for it, like I have said before it is not just a job it is a completely different way of life...And sometimes I forget to control that passion, and allow emotions into my debate. and am after only human...if you are offended tell me and I will apologize... I have spent hours upon hours discussing many different topics with you, hoping one day you will see the light, and not judge DND as whole by a few legion members you have meet. But you refuse to, and continue to paint all within DND with the same brush as muscle bound jocks with a Macho attitude. I won't blow sunshine up your ass, and say your remarks are not true to a certain extent, I have worked under a few of those types of people through out my career. In fact you'll find many different types of leaders within the forces, the micro manger types where everything must be as their plan done according to their plan, there are others that let the subordinates do the thinking and acting while they take the credit, both of these types of people don't normally do well through out their careers.... Leadership is always reasonable to someone, and eventually they will atone for bad decisions or failures. I will also tell you there are times when orders can not be discussed, 1/2 way through an assault on a enemies position is not the place to stop and clarify orders or intent....most combat situations would be covered under that....as well as most training for combat situations , there is however a period of time after the event when things are discussed and other solutions talked about for the next time.....one must remember most of this situations we have drills for, drills that have been tested in combat and work successfully....So everyone opinion does matter, and good leadership will listen to most credible ideas on how to solve issues and tasks. But like any large institute you are going to have good leaders, and bad leaders, the bad ones will get weeded out in time. Just because your legion has a few bad apples does not mean the entire military must follow suit..... The military does not make foreign policy decisions ever.....it gets consulted and advises one how that might reflect upon the military, but it does not ever make those decisions......So i'm not sure where you picked that info up.... Canadian citizens are not going to decide anything, just like the military does not decide anything, Canadian citizens are being asked for their advise.... Once your advise is captured , that is it, that is all, your voice stops there....the government is under no obligation to follow any of that advise good or bad.

Maybe this is his way of sulking.....normally when he is not doing well in a debate he just stops responding ....but today not sure....Big guy you need a hug.....

what jumping ship again....

When taken into context of his whole post it was not a cheap shot but rather a reasonable question. But I don't think it stops there I think Big guy has a fear of what a government might do, or be tempted to do if they had a military capable of carrying out it's job. He has a fear that own government can not be trusted.

My point here is and always will be, the first step is to educate the public, on all the topics in the survey, be it by documentary, or another document attached to the survey. Why comment on something with out knowing what it means or the consequences of changing it...... For instance Under our current defensive treaties what is the minimum force Canada must be able to field, what our the consequences if we decide to drop out of NATO...Which has been the main talking points of myself and derek.... I truly see where you are coming from, and I once upon a time I had those same visions. But any document that comes of this is just a piece of paper. and can be changed or canceled at any time, be it by it's creators, or the next elected party. that includes turning the document into law, or adding it to the constitution, although each step requires more effort, they all can be changed...with that in mind nothing is binding...I can remember a White paper being created that had a vast and sweeping changes, talks of nuclear subs, larger air, land and sea forces...it was passed and approved, until the costing , then reality set in, 100 of bils would only scratch the surface...that paper sat as a living document a white paper on defence...it sat and collected dust, it was not amended nor canceled just filed never to be seen again... Any action taken involving troops are taken out of the defence budget...the first couple of years of Afghanistan DND's budget was in the red, and while most seen this as a simple transferring of funds that is not what happened. Back home all training and activities stopped DND was broke, and the transfer did not happen until the end of the fiscal year. Same goes for the rescue of Canadians out of Lebanon, all of it out of DND budget, it does not matter that it was a foreign affairs lead mission...it involved troops DND is down to bare cabinets years ago, and does not budget very much for these things.....Taxing the citizens would bring more awareness to the conflict and hold more people accountable, but that is not how our system of spending works...One can not bank funding , once it is budgeted it must be spent within that year or that dept turns it back into government coffers. You've seen our procurement in action it is almost imposable to get a contract in place then have the material delivered by end fiscal year... I think you mean the swiss, right because

We already have a well defined Military strategic doctrine, one that has been whittled down to the basics, one that DND struggles with daily. but can not accomplish all at the same time...we continue to look for ways to decrease our nations military based on cost...and cost alone...This is my concern if we are looking at the bottom dollar then disband the entire department instead of killing it with a thousand cuts, like what is happening right now.... We are asking the people of Canada to assist in creating documents that will have tremendous impact on this nation...many of those impacts are not discussed in any form...What our government has done is puked up a bunch of questions to a subject that the public has not been fully educated on....kind of like giving the test out before the class has been taught...And these results will be used how.....to gauge how little the public knows about our security apparatus....or to justify a renewed Strategic doctrine... Even you must be able to see the results will be skewed....Educate the public first.....then by all means create a document that will be useful.....right now all it is doing is dividing the country into, pro military or anti military camps....with neither side really knowing the who, what, where, and how of the problem....does that make sense.... Shit we can not even find consensus here on this forum, at yet we are going to take this on a national level.... It has been my experience that when our government sits down and talks about anything military, it results in one of two things, lots of broken promises, then reductions when the cost come back.... or lots of reductions...So when Liberals talk about re defining our roles all the alarm bells start ringing....

So your not concerned about our soldiers health and welfare, your primary concern is nothing more than optics.... Our government has never looked at how small our nations military is, before sending it off to the worlds holiday spots.....But I guess that fact blows right by you....as all the rest of the facts.....

Your worried about the conditions in which our forces are sent, but is that not putting the cart before the horse....lets ensure they are equipped before we send them any where.....

Maybe this concept is to big for you to swallow.....paying taxes has nothing to do with any of your rights within Canada.....Not everyone pays taxes, You've agreed to this in your statement....so are you suggesting that they are not allowed to enjoy any freedoms or rights as you do, they are not allow to voice their opinion.....which one is it only tax payers have a say or everyone has a say...... So where does your rights and freedoms originate from......I'll help you, our constitution....and laws.....No where does it say in those documents that if you don't pay taxes you loose your rights....nor does it say any where that paying your taxes gives you any right or freedoms..... Your right we do have a representive Government, every 4 or 5 years we as a nation gather at the polls , where every citizen is free to vote for any party that is registered..... As for your power to fire a government....I'm assuming you mean after they have finished their term your free to vote for another party....that suits your needs.......But to fire a government takes more than a one person voice .....it would take shutting down the nation....something that has not happened, so serving a 4 year term is pretty much guaranteed unless they do something illegal..... You can also voice your opinion to our elected government anytime you want, and if you can convince them of your issue then you might spur change within the government.....but as I already pointed out to you....their is no guarantee....if the government does not like your proposal....such as ending the conflict in Afghanistan.....Not only did they not listen but won another term.....

Your portraying some Hollywood image to reality and they are not the same, being tough does not mean you have to look like the incredible hulk, being tough is being 160 lbs and expected to haul your weight into combat, day after day, with a rucksack weighing in at over 110 lbs while carrying over 40 lbs of wpns,body amour, strapped onto your body and do that in the most hostile terrain know to man the mountains of afghan in plus 50 degree heat....and then once you've reached the objective your expected to close with and destroy the enemy.....Now that is tough...and to do that one has to not only be able to surpass your physical limitations, and all the pain that goes with that, but you also have to be mentally tough as well, to see the horrors of combat process that , then forget all that and carry on.... Leadership in the military is not only about all the above, but leading by example, living through every moment and being able to give orders to your men under incredible stressors such as enemy fire, enemy arty, RPG attacks, and watching some of your soldiers being wounded or killed....Making instant decisions that save lives, and win battles....but before you even get there a leader has to plan every move his soldiers make, right down to the last detail, he must study the map, know every feature around you, right down to an 10 figure grid reference...and the higher your command level the further out you have to plan ahead....being the CDS that would be months in advance for the entire military , planning every units move, resupply, enemy contacts, .....You don't become the CDS unless you've mastered this art.....it takes a life time to master..... When I first joined the Military, I did know exactly what I was joining , i'm 4 th generation to do so, So for me everything was already mapped out. But I did have some expectations, one was my country would provide me with the tools to do the job...and in the 1980's we had most of the tools, but things have slipped from that point to where they are today, and I hang my head in shame ....Our nation is sending our troops into conflict zones with equipment that is older than most 3 rd world nations, and what we have there is not enough to go around so it is shared...I don't want you to feel sorry for me....I want you to be concern for the next generation of soldiers.....Why would we as citizens of this country have the balls to ask our soldiers to stand up and defend this nation or it's interest, and not even bother to equip them for the job......it's not just shameful, its disgusting.... And you know what.... our soldiers would stand up if you gave them sticks and a bag of rocks, and be proud for the honor to fight for this nation .....because they believe in this nation, and what it stands for...They believe it is worth the sacrifice....to bad most of our citizens don't think so....This government just spent 40 bil in a blink of an eye.....no questions asked, and then told DND sorry no more money for you...when our forces lay gutted, rusted out, not enough to go around gutted.... Funding is so tight some units have parked their vehs to save funding by not spending it on fuel.....you can't train a mechanized outfit in school busses.... DND is not looking to become some new world power, it is not asking for equipment because it wants it, they are begging for equipment , and once again we turn our backs on them .....and when this government gets a chance they will send our forces to some shit hole in the world, they always do....our nations soldiers will have to die.....I say again die..... before someone wakes up and decides to purchases some of the equipment they need.....it will get national attention for a couple of days then poof.....Canadians will breath a sign of relief and say we dodged another one..... We are not looking for your pity, we are looking for the tools to do our jobs so we can return from those shit holes and see our families......And if that is to much to ask.....then disband our forces, until someone comes to the conclusion they are needed again.....And history will repeat itself once again....

I glad you brought up the attitude towards "you know the people how pay for the entire show", and the wave of ignorance....just for a second. you and others seem to think that because you pay taxes it entitles you to an opinion or a say in how or what the government decides....when paying ones taxes is law, it is the bill our government gives each and everyone every year for the services it provides to it's citizens....it gives you no rights or say in anything....In fact there are Canadians who don't pay any taxes but still have the same rights as you have to express opinions, not because of tax collection but through other means.....Your argument is that your opinion is more valuable than mine, because you pay taxes, here is a surprise most people pay taxes, including federal employees, that includes everyone in the military....at the same tax rate as you are billed.... Those rights are given to us through the constitution and Canadian laws, two separate issues....one does not have to pay taxes to be entitled to use all the freedoms under those charters.... Personal income taxes generate less than half of our total taxes collected, so they or in this case "the people you pay for the whole show" don't pay for the whole show as you suggest, I get the point we also pay other taxes collected as well, but once again those are bills we pay for services available to all Canadians.....Like your sears, Canadian tire, phone, power bills. only in this case you share those costs with all tax payers incurred for all services available to all Canadians....paying them does not give you any rights or privileges, they are just bills.... So i'm sorry, for bursting your bubble or debunking the myth that some how the military works for you because "you pay for the whole show" and i'm entitled to have a say in how our government functions, because it is not true...All that being said if enough Canadian citizens gather together and voice their opinion load enough you may get the attention of our government who desperately wants to win another election, but there is no guarantees.... an example of this is the Afghanistan conflict, 2 years into operations there it no longer had the majority of peoples support....and yet the conflict went on for 8 more years plus 2 years of training Afghan soldiers. why is that ? It is just one example of the government not listening.....or the power of the people not being strong enough....there are plenty more.....it also shows that the government if they have the will can do what ever they want within reason.... Every aspect of the Afghanistan conflict is controlled not by the experts but by government, you seem to think the PM handed control over to the CDS and said go crazy....kill those scum bags.....but in reality that was not what happened everything not at the tactical level was controlled, approved by our PM at the time......nor was it approved by US ground commanders, All Canadian operations were approved by the PM.....You know the guy in charge of the country..... The CDS at the time the military expert , told the PM, the CF was not ready for any overseas deployments, it was under manned, and under equipped. That he suggested putting the entire forces into a rest and rebuilding period, lets not forget we were coming out of Yugo, and the equipment we had required major overhauls ....The decisions you talk about where made by the PM .....against the CDS advice.....and like Big guy so elegantly puts it, DND is paid to follow orders , and said yes sir pack your bags we are leaving for Afghanistan.....