Army Guy

Not sure where the problem is Big Guy, the military already is held to two different standards, and always has been hence Military and civilian laws, which more the most part hold members to higher standards in conduct, performance, physical fitness, and also covers things like unlimited liability, meaning you may be told to do things that will take your life. So there is already an established 2 tier system....in most cases these rules, and regulations are meant to keep that higher standard.... I have already clearly stated that I agree with the general outline of both laws, both military and civil laws, Rape is a federal offense, and should be investigated relentlessly, if the accused is military they should be tried in a civilian court, which is happening and has always happened....if found guilty member should be released from forces...which does not always happen, but things are changing under the new CDS.... Sexual harassment, is the one I have a issue with, I agree is a member is being sexually harassed by another member it should be fully investigated, and if found guilty member and given jail sentence, member should be released, if not given a sentence then should have military discipline action as well..... But where I draw the line is here, the use of course language, major rule changes within the military are ongoing, and the use of course language is no longer tolerated, and can be a career ending incident.....now I was not born yesterday, course language is now more common in our society than it ever was....just look at prime time TV for examples, or video games, or listen to conversations at the local timmies.....the F bomb is flying around like there is no tomorrow.....and yet these people, civilians people are subjected to the same laws, I have not heard of anyone losing their jobs over a conversation at timmies, or local bar, or at home.....there may have been warnings given, but I have not heard of any one losing a job or ending a career over it....and yet this is what is happening.....within DND now.....the first couple of instances were charges, ending up with pay deductions.....next where recorded warnings which stay on file forever and a day.....after that other administrative actions are taken..... Now I not talking about sexual harassment, i'm talking about course language ....which is hidden in the term Sexual harassment, and so broad that it has in the definition, anything an individual believes to be harassment.....that is a large paint brush.....Now while this may all be part of the attack on getting rid of sexual harassment in the work place , for which i fully support....but they are dragging in more than that.....to comply with that female judge that first brought all this to DND's attention, because she attended a military Exercise, and was offended by some of the language used during simulated attacks.... DND is being held to a higher standard, while the civil laws are on the books they are rarely upheld....now I could be wrong, but has the civil work places ever deducted pay for swearing, or brought to any court for use of foul language..... Now while I may have a potty mouth while on military operations and exercises, most military members are complete ladies or gentlemen when it comes to dealing with outside military organizations or off hours.....I have never used course language when dealing with the outside world...nor have I degraded a man or women in uniform.... You continually attack a few governmental departments on they're handling of harassment issues....and while I agree with most of what you say, I have said time after time, that these issues are not limited to those 2 departments, but rather a National issue......there has been no talk other inistutions such as our higher education areas, high schools , universities, collages. which have far worse records per capita than most anything....these are where our kids go ....but for some reason, we are fixated on the Military and RCMP..... RCMP do have issues with harassment, but do you have proof that these issues effect their investigation/ bringing to justice/ prosecution of sexual related crimes, maybe i'm wrong but are you suggesting yet another civilian organization handles these type of cases, because our police force is inept ? The CDS new program has created a new agency that reports not only to DND but also to civil authorities....remaining anonymous is not an option, the Chain of Command still needs to account for this persons time, it is also held accountable for it's actions, for instance keeping the victim employed in the same environment would be a bad choice, it would have to remove someone, victim or accused...., there are medical or health issues that come into play, counselling appointments that would need to be arranged or attended....SO DND would need to know what the issue is, to take action.... we need to let the new CDS plan take effect, before we slam it....or take it apart...

I just want to add a few things here there has been Female soldiers on the battle field that have done exceptional well, some of them have paid that ultimate price , some have risen through the ranks, in fact it was rumoured that 2 RCR was going to have a female commanding officer, She is an Infantry officer, and those that I have talked to have said she earned every one of her strips.....and was an exceptional officer and soldier..... And while the females in the Armed forces are from a diverse back ground, I have been in combat with many, and would gladly do it all again.....they are as professional as any man I have served with, their roads to success are often a little more rugged than the typical mans.....due to the environment they serve in....The army has always been considered a mans world, with a lot of the old school still thinking females have no place...they however will be gone soon enough..... I've also know many men to go out of their way to skip a deployment, or operation as well....While I do not work in a trade that has many women in it, I have worked with plenty of support trades , and have seen both sides of the fence, they're will always be MIR commando's men or women, that is a fact....

WestCanMan: I think the macho attitude stems from a coping mechanism, trying to cope with the horrors of war, or fear itself from taking part in combat or it's related operations...and it comes in many forms, the incessant use of course language, the use of physical threats to get people to comply to orders, by it your own soldiers or enemy combatants, becoming cold or unresponsive to things surrounding you, such as the dead, the suffering around you, the conditions around you...the excepting the fact you could die at anytime, and when it gets really bad excepting the fact you are already dead, death no longer scares you , in fact you welcome it, to escape everything.... It also helps in controlling some very powerful emotions such as fear, which if left unchecked can cause total shut down, unable to move, loss of all or some of your senses, loss the ability to think....loss control of your bodily functions....you never can have total control over fear, while you still value your life....it is what keeps a soldier alive, having enough fear to keep you from doing something stupid.... Controlling that basic instinct to flee, which comes when there is to much fear....These are a daily struggle, even veterans have lost this battle at one time, you need to control it every time , and it is exhausting, both physically and mentally.... The macho attitude also comes from someone that's has been there down that, to the point regular everyday choices are nothing more than mundane, although you enjoy life more , you take more risks now, such as extreme sports, to try to get that rush of adrenaline back, it is very addictive.... you also become more confrontational, you are the man.....especially in front of your peers at work....you don't back down from anything.... you don't let things slide like you once did, you adapt the life is to short motto, deal with it quickly, violently and move on....it is what the military has trained us to do, only now that control you once had about separating work with home life is gone.... Today the government is attempting to get rid of the macho attitude, and in typical government run programs they have adapting the extreme left or right side of the choices.....instead of tackling the really problem, they decide to tackle the little problems..... Don't get me wrong I fully agree with, and support the prosecution of Rape, true sexual harassment of all members. there is no place for these in any dept that lives are at risk...., trust,loyality, honor is an important part of doing any job, including where your life is on the line, Policing, fire fighters, EMT techs, soldiers, sailors and airmen....Those found guilty should be removed form those depts , shown the door, never to return.... But that is not exactly what is happening, the terms of Sexual harassment now include any course language that describe a body part, or gender trait....example calling someone guy a P****y because he can't do something is sexual harassment, or another one would be you run like a little like a girl. but not just to the individual your talking to, if anyone hears that conversation and disagrees , they to can claim it to be sexual harassment.... I get it you have to watch what and to whom your talking to....but these charges are career ending....despite what others have said...But it does not end their ....there is the regular harassment charge....here anyone can charge anyone for saying something that might offend them, a simple word as Shit may be offensive to some, while it is common practice for the person being offended to say "stop " that offends me, it is not the hard fact, and charges or complaints can be raised without warning.... Now some of you are saying , there is nothing new here this is been Civilian practice for many years.....and your right.....but this is coming from an organization that " regularly using profane language to drive home a point.....Such as "Charge that F****ing machine gun nest"....instead of gentle men when you have time could you please eliminate that Machine gun nest.......it is part of the culture, it is part of that macho persona....that is part of a coping mech.... there needs to be a balanced government approach....and it needs to be implemented or designed with all sides sitting at the table, not just what some judge that knows very little of the culture thinks is offensive......

Not just the RCMP, Wilber but the entire country has the same issue, sure we can point out various organizations within it, as we expect a higher code of conduct, but these organizations are made up from the general population of our nation. This is a national issue, one that has gone untreated for a long time.....to fix it , it will have to have a national solution.....not just a few from a couple of depts. within the federal government.... While the RCMP may have some issues within the dept , that does not mean they do not do proper investigations of these crimes.

What a crook of shit....at what point in time, is our mission in Afghanistan going to stop being held accountable for deaths long after our departure....one could just as easily say it is because of our departure that these deaths have gone up.....11,000 thousand deaths who is to blame for them....let me guess NATO bombers, Drones....maybe just maybe it's the terrorists.....Nah can't be....we don't point fingers at terrorists.....we don't hold them responsible....or what's the other one oh ya it's big corporations and their lust for resources and oil...... Or maybe , I know this sounds crazy, but maybe the military was right, we should have stayed and finished the job.....

I am not aware of any women submariners as of yet, but while I don't have any experience in things navy, I don't think service on a sub is based on gender equality, but rather a cramped ves with little hygiene available on a regular basis...I'm not even aware of any female volunteers.....I don't think the submariner trades as a whole would even attract any female service members....

Come on Big guy, lets make some sense here, how do you not report this to chain of command, after all they are the first links in the employer chain. So lets just say you have a female employee, how has gone through a sexual incident, be it rape, or harassment etc....how does one explain the changes in this employee such as attitude, emotional, job performance, constant trips to see medical, or mental health pers....or do we just try to forget that link....how does the boss evaluate/ treat said employee without knowing some of the story behind it....While they do not have to know everything they do need to have the outline, it is common sense..... DID you just say that the RCMP are not to be trusted because they have some of the same issues....If we can't trust the police, our national police force I might add , then this country is in sad shape....I wonder where the rest of Canada is suppose to report these type of problems....i'd be curious who do they go to big guy....the post office, a lawyers office , to the hospital....oh wait since it is a criminal act and it is the law...that medical and mental health professionals have to contact the police when it is suspected that the victim was raped, or violent sexual act ....etc etc....After all it is the police that do the investigating in these matters right....they are the ones that actually charge and arrest people for it..... I think maybe you need to think about the issue then post something.....

From what I have read of her works I do get the impression she is anti military....those comments are very clear in her work, hardly bias opinion. and to place a lot of the blame on DND leadership, and way for the main characters in this conflict, one of those is the PM and his direct office.... it was not my intention to engage in character assignations , but rather to show you her bias. I did use my example from the military Journal, but if you read the entire article they gave it an average review, and thought it could have concentrated on some of the other portions of the conflict and establishment...the review is better than I expected...considering it is a CF publication...I could have used the other organizations but they totally discount her work, and it would not of furthered discussion....

Vance said the centre's creation was significant in that it offered those who have faced misconduct an additional option — beyond the existing chain of command — to report incidents and find support.

It already has that in place and has for along time....any military member can report these type of crimes directly to the RCMP....who will look after investigating, laying of charges etc etc...just like regular citizens in Canada do...

And that is the major fault of the article.......launching a ballistic missile from a vessel brings about a whole host of complexities....launching a ballistic missile and being able to deploy a thermonuclear device into low Earth orbit to generate a NEMP is even more complex .......as I said, you can count on one hand the nations States that are able, and can afford, to do this. I know that you can get EMP from a nuclear wpn going off, and well i'm not an expert, but I thought there was already a device out there that produces EMP without a nuclear explosion.....with out a thermal nuclear device.....

I'm hoping that it won't come to that, but if it did i'm hoping my military training will give me a slight edge over crazed joe citizens.... Don't get me wrong I am not out in my back yard digging a bunker, I will be taking my preparations a look over, and seeing if they can be tightened up alittle...

First off I do want to admit that I have not read the entire book, I have however read dozens of reviews on the book itself, here is what they have to say.... it should also be noted that the book itself was published in 2007, and im sure was not written over night so still very early in the Afghanistan conflict... here is some of there comments: Canadian Defence and Foreign Affairs Institute, Royal Canadian Military Institute, Canadian Institute for Strategic Studies, defence lobbyists and corporations, and academics in some way affiliated with defence issues. It seems to be the common theme in most of the reviews I read....a lot of finger pointing and all it of leading to diplomats and the CDS, I makes one wonder who was running what, the PM or the military....and for an organization that was suppose to be calling the shots, it did little to further it's own budget or properly equip it's troops.....One has to make the assumption that their power is very limited as the CDS was always lobby for more funding and better equipment...So the book is to lead us to believe that the entire conflict was run and controlled by the above mentioned people....that is quit a leap for the reader to take.... You claim that the entire book is an insiders look as to the afghan conflict, that Eugene Lang had a seat at the table of most meeting involving the MDND and the CDS or even the PM....I agree he had a seat at the table...but as the books reads , once again it points fingers as if making excuses for the Guys that where suppose to be in charge....of the entire nation...and all of its workings including the foreign policy and workings of the military. Even Eugene had influence over matters in the books, it fails to explain what he did he owns as his and what direction he pushed for.... The information and conversations have been challenged some of them written off completely, but then again it becomes a dick measuring exericise ....so everyone is free to make their own opinion.... some more insight to Janets way of thinking http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/letters/no-such-tradition/article4156716/ SO while Janet gross stein is a professional in her field it does not mean that she is the absolute knowledge of the topic at hand, some of her views point towards are of an anti military stance, that is the message prevalent in this book, where fingers are pointed away from the men who where actually in charge , who we elected to make those tough choices....she makes no mistake in singling out retired Gen Hillier, as he was the author of displacing that vicious rumour that Canadian military had a long standing history as peace keepers....more so than the warriors they have always been....

Now us older guys could adjust pretty rapidly to no power, infact I love going to the cabin , as it has no modern anything, water is drawn from lake, toilet is an outhouse out back, and no power............it's the kids today that would have a mental break down in any such event....last power outage we had was 3 days and I thought I would have to put down my son, and daughters because they were driving me crazy...could not use their phones laptops nothing.....I could not imagine losing everything of power, vehs ,generators, as well.... shit i'm lucky my son knows how to use a shovel....but if they had to walk, or do things by hand....I think I would have to shot myself rather than to listen to their bitching and moaning....

I found your article interesting Argus....which promoted me to do some more reading, seems that it does have some traction with the US government as they have produced some alarming reports as well, in fact it was the them who produced the 90 % death rate..... I remember taking some classes on EMP and it's effects part of my NBCW course a while back, never really paid much attention to EMP portion, as I was concentrating on the stuff that killed you in milliseconds... It is the US governments report that has spun up the prepers and cash in on the latest scare that concerns me....a lot of bad info out there... For what I understand it is not just EMP from a device that is the concern, it also mention solar flares , such as the one that happened in 1924, apparently it was the worse one on record, however at that period of time there was no real reliance on electrical power as there is today....it was said to be of enough strength to seriously knock out most of our todays power grid.... The report goes on to say even the largest device today could be packed into a rocket and launch off the coast....but as everyone has said MAD would be in effect if anything such as that happened, problem being is not with nations, but radical groups with no nation attached to them....that would be a problem.....like a dirty nuke situation....Yes they would cease to exist as every one brought their militaries to bare....but the damage would be done.... from what I have found, is that an EMP burst travels so fast that any equipment such as surge protectors could not react fast enough to stop the massive surge....it would fry everything with the blast radius, plugged in or not, unless shielded by other means , such as a complete electronic shield... not only does it destroy the sensitive electronic components but also fires the wiring as well, to include telephone , power lines, plug ins to all our devices such as toaster, or dvd.....as the wiring acts like an antenna of sorts.... Now they did said it would be impossible to cover the entire US of A, and the effects would decrease the further you traveled from the point of impact , but the entire grid would come down, due to over loading etc....those grids further out would be able to reset....but those that were in the radius would have to rebuild from scratch, replacing all the infra structure such as power lines telephone lines etc.... I do agree that the death rate is way to high, but I can also see our society as we know it knocked to it's knees.....not out but US and Canada would need some help for sure.....it would take some time to bring back law and order....over all I think US citizens would fair a little better in a man eat man world....as they take that prepper thing very serious in a lot of areas....I think what scared me the most about the whole EMP thing is lack of mobility, not being able to get out of the danger zone , unless we walked.... It has made me at least take a second look a at my families preparations for natural or man made disasters.....at least on the food, and water front, along with camping and other survival goodies....I do have a full weeks of food in the house, and 2 weeks of water, but not enough... don't get me wrong still have a lot of military gear around the house, military maps, compasses, clothing made for survival....but way to under prepared for my liking....

I hope so to, I also hope that it carry's across the nation to other depts. and industries...

There is when you paint all of it's members as sexual delinquents, ya there is going to be a problem there....and given the job we ask them to do, yes there is going to be a macho attitude.....you have said you have served where you a sexual delinquent yes or no....I have and I no for a fact that I am not one either.....such much for that theory.... In case you missed the interview....the creation of a new reporting cell, ensures there will be no repercussions....that every report will be investigated and action will be taken.....

There is a new process in place and the CDS has made a commitment to clean it up....it does not happen over night....so before you ripe it apart, give it a chance to work.... This talk of old boys club is not just a military issue, in fact it spans the entire country....every industry, corporation, work place....but once again we have to point fingers at someone.....and this time the military was a standing target....

That's on of the side effects of war Topaz, and it does not matter where the conflict is, what it is about, good or bad, war destroys everything, it brings out the worst in people....The average human being is not built mentally for killing, so it takes a toll..... Yes I would agree many soldiers continued to fight this war because of their brothers in arms.....but their are many reasons, Soldiers took this mission on and called it our own ....because we felt our own nation forgot about us....they could not have been bothered to help us in our time of need.....when we did speak....They brushed us off as governmental puppets......and when you hear it as often as we did, then you start to believe in it....everything we pleaded for , beg for came at the cost of Soldiers lives...uniforms, equipment, more troops, everything that Canada finally agreed to relent to Canadian soldiers had to die , not one or two....but dozens....everything has a price we the soldiers learned that very early....and tax payers dollars has a steep price.... Hard to come to the conclusion that many Canadians were on our side.....Hard to come to the conclusion when many Canadians can't even point to Afghanistan on a map....hard to come to that conclusion when Canadians are not very informed about the mission..... For you it may of been a waste of your portion of your tax dollars, or your time ,having to listen to the endless debates on the mission, how much it cost, how long it was going on, etc, etc you see while you and your family discussed it over the supper meal, myself and thousands like me we on the ground, trying to survive day to day, trying to bring a little piece of Canada over there, improve some lives, make small villages a little safer, ....but for me it was not a waste, for me all that sacrifice will never be a waste....It cant be , because of our small military most soldiers had to serve multi tours, in fact in is more common to see guys with 5 tours than 2 or 3 ....think about what that means to them....and their families, their kids and their spouses....away for 3 years of their lives....so that we could come back and have the citizens of this country slap us in the face and tell us it was all for nothing .....nothing but a waste......of time, money, sweat, blood and tears.... I post this not to shit on you Topaz....but to inform you this is what it is like to hear, that the best years of my live was for nothing...that some of my best friends in the world who had paid the ultimate price , was for nothing....You and the others have the right to print or post what ever you want here....it is your right it is one of your freedoms....I hope in the future you are on our side, I also hope all Canadians come to support their nations military not with a mere bumper sticker or slogan or a YA I do....but that they take our government to task , to ensure soldiers don't have to die to get the uniforms, equipment they need to do the job ....that Canada has asked them to do....that you hold our government to task ensuring vets get the care they need and deserve.....

Is that fact or your opinion.....if it is fact then i'd like to see a source.....

Well big guy you are sure good and jumping to conclusions.....

Yes I know that not all Muslims recognize Sharia law or practice it...What is your point.......That is not what I said, apparently you missed that.... my point was Not all Muslims are happy in Canada, and a lot of them are having issues adjusting to our nation, it's moral values, our culture, etc etc ....And the Khadr family are not the only ones, as you so quickly pointed out......I on the other hand pointed out there has already been conversations in various media outlets on these topics, including the introduction of Sharia law, and many other topics at hand....Why do you think these conversations were even started......do they show concern, or distaste for our culture, or they just trying to improve our culture in some way.... In those conversations they have spoken "they are not happy", they want change..........I also know that we have had this same conversation in Canada before, over and over again, and we have agree to try it out, the example I am thinking off is Native law, which has been approved in some native communities....SO while you and YOUR people have come down hard and said we had that conversation and it is over, done with....and yet their is an example looking right in our face....nothing is done , nothing is written in stone..... No where did I say I was hiding in my closet because I was afraid of the big bad Muslim and they were going to take over...force shiara law on all us folks....that was you voicing your opinion.... Rather I pointed out that they are trying to change our culture, rather than adapt to it, it also points to they are not happy here....Why can't you see that point.....Why because it does not fit into your agenda.....of putting labels on everyone.... but you can't see that because in your mind.... I have already been labeled.....as one of those "YOU PEOPLE" and our fears....or so you say,..... I guess in this country one can not have concerns....as they only fit in the fear category....one can not debate , or run the risk of being a racist.....one can only shut the f*** up and take it all with a smile....whats the point of even having a forum to discuss things if we are going to be force feed our very own thoughts and opinions..... you continue to rant that our concerns , your fears are unfounded, and disregard any facts presented by turn the other cheek crowd..... and yet You and your People refuse to see or take into account what is happening already in Europe....why in Europe because they have been dealing with this a lot longer than we have....and everyone of those European countires are facing THE VERY SAME issues", but here in Canada we sweep those issues aside, that kind of shit does not happen here EH....We know how to do things right eh.....we'll figure it all out later eh...after hockey season eh....pass me my beer eh SO the problem here has to be looked at from all angles, INCLUDING the MUSLIM side of the house for this to work for ALL Canadians....not just YOUR people.....there is a problem and it is not just MY people or so your quote goes....That was not done, we watch a few videos, seen some pictures and jumped right in without any thought or plan.....just an election promise....and now problems are arising , the same issues as what the Europeans are facing.....imagine that.....we all ignore the military solution, we fail to address the problem which is conflict in the middle east, failed on the diplomatic side, military side and now the resettlement side.....Those should be the topic of debate....instead we do what we do best finger point, call everyone names , put them into holes such as racists......Good job.... And while the west is up to it's neck in stirring the pot, and screwing things up....it takes two to do this dance....and Muslim people are the other partner....They need to stand up and take their share of the blame as well, they need to be part of the solution......SO ya everyone is the problem.... For your part Cyber, you can step down from your white horse.....if it is protecting Muslims from other muslims then we have an issue, why just Syrians, when every Islamic country is in some sort of turmoil do we race to protect those people as well .....was that racist sorry....And how do we do that.....you have been a critic of the military option, the other options are not working either.....do we accept them all....or like eyeball says let them sort out their own problems.....tells us oh great white leader of men.....what is the solution .....

Last time I looked the problem was not with young mr khadr, as the member shady pointed out to you it was the Khadr family that has been very vocal or their dislike for our nation.....And as much as I like young omar, he is the only one within his family making an attempt to adjust.... you also dismiss the fact that the Khadr family is not alone in their distaste for our country....who speak of as though there is no issue with Muslims adjusting to Canadian culture, that there is no conversations ongoing about bringing in Shia law, or their unhappiness with western values.....

Well I can tell you this eyeball, sticking your head in the sand and reverting back to your old song and dance of NOT doing nothing, let them sort it out by themselves is not the right direction either....The west has at least stood up and tried to help, be it as it may some of that help has done nothing , or made it worse but at least they are trying to come up with a solution.....Not all their efforts have been in vein.... You make it sound like i'm the leader of some kind of team, I AM NOT , I happen to share some of the same concerns as they do....on many issues, but I am not leading them in any direction....Each and everyone of them is a Canadian citizen, with their own opinions , some of them we share some of them we do not.... Unlike you eyeball if I have nothing to share or add I don't , a lack of response on my part does not mean I agree or disagree.....Not sure what you mean that I should be ashamed , ashamed of what , what I have said or what I have done.....looking back I feel no shame at anything....I may have some regrets, but over all I would do it all over again..... But then again that is your style Eyeball , sit back from your lofty throne and cast doubt on others, others that are taking some type of action.....putting little labels on everyone.....so your world does not fall apart, so you have purpose....Maybe eyeball it is time to come down from the mountain and join history become an active participant some how....

I bet you a years wage there will never be 50,000, nor 40, 30, even 20....thousand..... our cultures are to different to co exist , without both sides sitting down and trying to understand each other....first....and foremost....instead our nation leapt out of the gates without even a plan, sorry we had a plan....to except 25,000 people before year end......election promise........it had to be kept......no matter what .....so we as a nation bashed ahead......all the experts were saying it can't be done in that time frame....we do not have the housing, infra structure to support any of this......our answer to the problem was get them here jam them into hotels closets, any where just get them over here so we don't look like idiots..... they're version of the American dream has been shattered , it does not rain dollars here, it snows instead....there is no free ticket as they heard in the rumour mill.....nope....and now they are getting pissed.....we are getting pissed because they seem ungrateful, they lash out at us we lash out at them.....there will be no stopping until both sides sit down and talk.... For a lot of western nations talk is down, now they are shipping them back.....Germany the savior for all refugees is now said they are filled to capacity...and will send any more back.....western patients are wearing thin....so are the Syrians....it is only going to get worse..... Has our government sat down and come up with a plan, have they sat down with Syrians refugees and asked them what can we do to make this go better..........to get a grip on this problem.....you know it is bad when the private sector has a grip on it.....and the government leading the charge still does not want to help the private sector..... what are we going to regret the whole experience.....