Army Guy

Did I strike a cord eyeball...get your feathers in a ruffle....Well when you invade another country for what ever reason, one has the responsibility to put it back together again....or face having to do it several times until you get it right.....Here we have people chirping that the Coalitions plan was wrong on all levels.....And yet they can not explain what the right solution would have been....just that the current plan was wrong and a failure, they feel no need to explain why, it is not up to debate. It was just wrong, end of story..... And you don't have to listen or read anything I post, you have options available to you....But I thought the entire reason for a forum was to debate topics....one can hardly have a debate if one is not willing to explain your side of the topic....one can hardly glean any new information that may or may not change your point of view without some sort of discourse.... So unchain yourself from your tree and talk, if not move along....I think I hear chain saws

You should also try "Canada without Armed forces" written by Douglas L. Bland, written in 2004 it includes several case studies done by experts in their field.....here they all list the consequences to Canada.... Here was what they predicted in 2004... "The inadequacies of policies to sustain and continually re constitute our armed forces is a source of the gather crisis in National security, Defense, and foreign policy....If it is not resolved within the next few years then we will be disarmed....and may be to stressful for the nation bear....in an increasingly dangerous , interconnected world...."

Waldo you already know what the review is going to recommend....if an expansion was going to happen then they would have just done it... There is no peoples will at all, for either side of this problem, in fact they could not care one way or another. no will to expand or properly equip nor the will to just kill the dept one way or another..... The leadership within DND have already stated on numerous occasions that our military can not do the 3 main tasks already assigned at the same time, it's limited resources means one at a time and barely managing to do that....why even bother with a top 5. I often wonder when US leadership will once again force our government to spend,(I can't help but remember Trumps speech on this topic) and how that will be perceived by our citzens.....The question should be why do we need to have a baby sitter, one that tells us what to do, instead of living up to our commitments all by ourselves.....Maybe NATO, UN should stop with all the kid gloves and just tell us to wake the fuc* up.... I could count on one hand the number of times that there has been a political will to grow our military, each time it was seen as suspect by major leading nations....all talk no action, it does not buy votes....When are we going to have a government that acts for the nations benefit, instead of getting re elected....Leadership my ass....and not just for the liberal government , the cons, NDP, the whole shooting match.....although I do like miss may.... Fiscal realities, This seems to be the end all be all fall back position for those nay Sayers....And yet we spend over 27 bil ann on immigration, how much is the Liberal cabinet spending this term again...where did they find that again,what was that number 30 bil ?....So what your really saying is there is no where we could trim, I find that hard to believe.....and I've only mentioned 2 areas.....there are dozens more.....

I agree NATO has become a shell of it's former self, incapable of performing it's original concept....defending Europe. We tend to count the Russian out of offensive operations game , and forget that Russia had dozens of army groups just in the west....and as they have declined, NATO has declined at a faster rate....we see this now NATO talks tough but no direct action again'st Russian aggression and expansion.... Trudeau may be the flavor of the day, but he is his fathers son, who can not help but share the same ideas or policies....Even his father started with dismantling our military by a defense review.... Anti aircraft gun Systems...Sold off have none... Anti aircraft sys, put into long term storage, now out of date... Anti tank mis....we have none, all system were sold off as scrap... Self propelled arty, also put into long term storage, out of date...we do have M777, but not many.... Tracked IFV , ours are the orginal M113 modified to TLAV's out of date, and not very many.... Recce vehs , retired, suppose to be replaced by TAPV, issues with contract... the bulk of our tanks are Leo II A4, only 4 generations behind and less than 60 of them ....while we do have 20 leoIIA6M, returned from Afghanistan and not very good shape.....and only 2 generations behind.... Logistics trucks.....LSVW, MLVW, and most of the HLVW fleet sit in compounds rusting out....not fit for military service, and condemned.....Still waiting for a contract to be signed.... * note that the off the shelf truck purchased for the reserves have been re roled to reg force to give them some logistical vehs....note this truck was prone to catch fire and not to be used off road due to it's length... Small arms, C7, C-8, C-9 where upgraded 5 years ago to A2 standards....* Still no 9MM pistol replacement, C-6 GPMG needs updating....50 Cal HMG's all scrapped , melted....No replacement planned, 60 MM mortars recalled, replaced by new 40 mm auto grenade launcher....No veh mount sys available.... Sniper sys are now very out of date....or shot out.... Not enough NVG or sight systems .....although we do have semi modern thermal sites and devices for wpns... And I have not gone through the Airforce and NAVY the forgotten branches......

An article by JL Granastien on our NATO commitments, since it's inception.....not a very flattering picture.... Jack Granatstein, OC, PhD, one of Canada’s most renowned historians, has written extensively on Canada’s military history and defence issues. He was Director and CEO of the Canadian War Museum from 1998 to 2000. http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vol12/no1/41-granatstein-eng.asp

Yes another Canadian contribution to NATO....

Yes another Canadian contribution to NATO and the rest of the world.....

I did not say it was only Canada, but during the height of the cold war most it if not all of NATO European countries took their NATO commitment serious. and never started with peace dividends until after the wall came down....That being said Canada has always cheaped out....Their commitment really ended after WWII...

That's not Russian doctrine, Russia believes that it can win both a conventional war or one with limited nuclear wpns being used. They don't value life like we do, and would be willing to throw millions of lives away to accomplish their goals....They believe NATO would give in after major loss of life....They also believe NATO would not risk a full nuclear exchange....for something like a few countries in Europe.

This is rich, The question should be why is Canada suddenly stepping up to the NATO plate....Most of our NATO commitments have been either handed back to NATO or decreased beyond being capable of anything....Our forces have been slashed to the point that we could not do NATO, NORAD or continental defense at the same time....and if we do our commitment would be extremely small in the grand scheme of things.... Not to mention part of our NATO commitment is to maintain 2 % of GDP, to be spent on Defense, (today we spend just over 1 %), so a proper response can be mounted....or act as a deterrent. 3 severely under manned Brigade size formations is not living up to any of the above reason for us to have a military in the first place.... Todays military is much smaller and less capable than the one that fought in Afghanistan, and we struggled to put a 3500 member battle group into battle and maintain that for any duration.... The Canadian Military is shrieking every day....today cut backs to the reserve force, because the regular military is being starved....little stories here and there, covering all these cut backs and dismantling of capabilities but nobody give a flying fuc**, as long as the game is on, and the pogey check arrives on time.... Canadians know this, "they approve of this" either willingly or by their silence, and yet time after time our government puts this ladies and gentlemen in harms way to make a few political points with our allies, on the backs of our soldiers.....who sacrifice everything for love of country and their comrades in arms......More than our nations politicians are willing to sacrifice, or most of it's citizens....And yet we are all happy with the way things are.... Canadians should be hanging their heads in shame, for the way we treat our military and our veterans....The military has a saying "bend over and prepare to receive belt feed cock"....not just from our politicians, but from most of it's citizens and their silence as well.....Things will never change....because there is no will to change it..... Canada's NATO commitment died along time ago....dust in the wind...and you didn't even notice....

So I have to ask ,who should have the US and coalition put into power. Your saying the Shia sect was a bad idea, well who then.... As for the Shia sect being an Iranian proxy, you know the sect that has the majority within Iraq, one that made up the bulk of the military forces within Iraq, How did that effect the Iran /Iraq war....I mean if Iran has sooo much control over this sect why did the war carry on for so long....Maybe Iran does not have the control you think it does... The west never picked to invade Iraq over a civil war, Iraq was invaded because of the Sadam regime, and it's actions within the middle east....the civil war happened after the regime change....Because the Sunni's wanted nothing to do with coming under Shia rule....there actions prove that very clearly, now they have no aspirations of making a homeland strictly for Sunni's.....They are involved in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Lybia, Nigeria, ...on top of that on does not have to be a Sunni to join ISIS, all you have to do is embrace their beliefs, and their extremist views...and poof your in.... It should also be noted that the Majority of Sunnis do not approve of ISIS, and it's actions.....they do not talk for all Sunni's..... And while it may sound good on paper to re draw the borders within the middle east, to much time has past, existing nations have to much to lose....

SO what in your mind was the tell, what was the moment that everyone would have been clear that the new government was going to fail.... and who would the coalition have chosen to run the country ? WOW that is oppression...funny I don't see any thing of using Chemical warfare on the population ....nor did I see a list of hundreds of thousands missing and buried in the desert some place, placed into the torture chambers of Sadams sons.......WTF did you think was going to happen that all the Sunni did forgotten and sunny days ahead....What is your point....that the Sunnis have paid their debt for everything they have done.....and now the free world should shed tears for these bastards.....give them their own country by asking the rest of the middle east to redraw borders, to correct a mistake made by the British ....and you thought putting the Shia in charge was a huge mistake....but this new plan is a much better one..... Like I asked you a couple of times what do we do when those same countries that are living with those same borders refuse to co operate.... do we invade, or do we turn a blind eye and let ISIS do it....Why have we even thought of giving anything to ISIL.....WTF are we thinking and what do we do next time some organization with a grudge comes along.....

I did not say all of it had been destroyed, and Come on...Pick up trucks and Humvees....what a game changer.... How is it all working out....are you suggesting that Iraqi and Syrian forces are not up to the task of handling ISIS....or are you suggesting that NATO put boots on the ground once again.....

Is closing your borders to another a war crime now ? i'd like to see that source.

Iranian proxy or not the fact remains that the Shia sect represents the majority of the population....one that was oppressed by the Sunnis during their reign of power....Why would the US and coalition hand power back over to the same goons that were disposed in the invasion.....did we hand over Germany back to the Nazi party after world war II ,no why is that. Did they have a crystal ball to fore see what would happen....Look I agree the invasion went off with out a hitch, it was the nation building that failed....But some where along the line the Sunnis need to stand up and be held accountable for their actions.....the US did not turn them into terrorists that was their choice....one that may have some weight if the Shia government was oppressing them like Sadam and his goons did....but that is not the case....The because is they refuse to live under Shia rule, and are willing to give up everything to make that happen..... So now they have created this ISIS organization, with the only goal of killing....it has nothing to do with a new home land....it is about wiping out as many of their opponents as possible cleansing the country side not just for religious resons, or color or race....but wiping out anyone that does not submit to their extremist ideas..... So the question is why are willing to redraw lines on a map, for extremists....what do we do when the next group of extremist comes along.....redraw more maps, until when do we stop....until every group of extremists haves what they want.... does this mean Israel can finally end the conflict with the Palestinians....all they have to do is throw them into the sea, and we will redefine a new map.....If we agree to this solution then I think the map of the middle east is going to change big time..... And what do we do when a nation refuses to have there borders redefined....a nation that has had it's borders drawn up by the British, do you think Jordan or Syria will be fine with that....what of the rest of them....

There has always been a French/ English discourse....with two standards, one for Quebec and one for the rest of Canada. perhaps if both languages were given equal billing, then maybe we would have more wiliness to learn it....In New Brunswick they had a program where students were required to do 1/2 a year in English and 1/2 year in French in all subjects. The program failed and now they have gone back to just one French class up until grade 9, where there is no requirement for any French.

It's not perspective but fact, the current Syrian government is another Sadam in sheeps clothing with the bulk of Syrians not supporting him or his clowns. The new Iraqi government is made up mostly of the majority Shia religion, for many reasons the Sunnis had already proved that they could not govern, at least not without using terror and fear to keep their subjects in line. The SHIA sect makes up the majority of Iraqi citizens, whom were oppressed by the Sunnis....Was there going to be conflict, no doubt there was, but never even close to what Sadam and his Sunnis goons had accomplished.... Given a choice making the new government out of the majority of the Iraqis would seem to be the right choice.....if you were from Shia sect.....and the Sunni sect rejected this proposal right out of the gates, and made it almost impossible for the current government to accomplish anything. This is not an US made issue this was an issue solely created by the Sunni's....and the years of mistreatment of other sects within Iraq. ISIS does not represent all Sunnis, you can not paint them all with the same brush, does ISIL have support from some of the Sunni sect , Yes they do, but it is not a majority. They have been many Muslim , Sunni sect Imans that have spoken publicly about how they do not support ISIS , and have condemned their actions as going again'st Islam.....Also remember ISIS does not tolerate any discourse with any of their policies or religious interputations, and have killed anyone that does not tow the party line, Sunni or Shia, western, eastern it does not matter.... When I read your post it seems like your suggesting that the Sunnis are only interested in creating a sunni homeland, and yet they are involved in Syria, Libya, Nigeria, and Afghanistan....that's quit a homeland....where does it stop.....and does the world just take it on the chin, decide to sit down with these nut bars and redraw the middle eastern map.....what of the middle eastern countries that don't want they're borders redrawn.... Why should the civilized world even bother to sit down with these guys....I mean , what they are currently doing goes against inter national law, the Genva convention, and most nations with the UN....So why do we shed tears for these guys, because they want a homeland, they don't want to be ruled by Shia.....last time I looked their is an already established process to get all of that..... and if we let bullies do what ever they want, to whom ever they want.....where does it stop.....Can I arm myself and declare my own nation within Canada., No because we have laws and rules about such behavior.... If they want to have the bombs stop dropping they have to act according to the laws, and accords laided down by the rest of the world.... Your statement has a lot of holes in it....first off every nation around the globe has soldiers in fact thousands of Canadian soldiers retire or quit our forces every year, less than .025% percent find employment in Soldiering.....and they are not entitled to Unemployment insurance , you either have a meager pension, or a return of contributions from said pension plan....how do they do it I wonder....Well sir they get off their asses and find work where they can.... The bulk of Iraq's soldiers are conscripts forced into the military, on top of that lets not forget that the bulk of Iraq's population is made up from Shia religious sect and there fore made up the bulk of the old Iraqi army......with the exception of Iraq's Republican Guard who numbers you gave were between 60 and 70,000....I wonder how many of them survived the last invasion, I bet not that number.....So you want to believe that the survivors took up arms in 2003 and are still alive today.....how many would have been wounded, not able to soldier, how many still wanted to fight....it would be my guess that today there would be a small fraction still fighting today....replaced by a much younger Iraqi who has been seduced with the promises of virgins and glory in his heavens....while on earth he is paid some wages, given slaves to keep him comfortable, all the prostitutes he wants, a home,food, and fuel.....plus the chance to prove himself on the battle field.....a very powerful motivator if your poor, or out of work....

It is NOT primarily made up of Iraqi ex military personal, the bulk of it's members are made up of Sunni Iraqi kids promised the world , wages, slaves, prostitutes, fuel, food, and fuel...and all the killing they want to do.....foreign Muslims make up the rest of the numbers, UN est at over 30,000. Yes Uncle Sam left a lot of equipment to the new Iraqi army, who in turn lost it on the battle field...Id say most of it has been destroyed or rendered broken by now....One could hardly blame the US for that....

You make them sound like they are a legitimate organization, recognized by the UN, or by other Middle eastern countries, or even Iraq's official government. But they are not are they....The fact is they are recognized within the UN, and every nation within it as a Terrorist organization....An organization that uses terror for a political proposes.... Now some nations leaders are reclassifying ISIL, Drash what ever you want to call them as nothing more than rogue army as they don't fit into all the slots other terrorist organizations fit into, or how other nations have decided to counter ISIL aspirations of a new home land unlike how they dealt or destroyed with other terrorist groups...Forcing a new change of tactics which are evolving slowly.... they have limited political power, a clear chain of command within their government and military. In the end they are a threat to world security, security of the middle east, and nothing more than a rogue terrorist group... Not sure if your trying to misinform the rest of the crowd here or just don't know, While a good deal of ISIL higher chain of command are made up of EX Iraqi members, there is still a high number of foreign fighters , with some estimates of over 30,000 by the UN , which released a report calling ISIL a polishing ground for most extremists who have joined not because of some made up fallacy of making a new homeland, but rather the thrill, the experience, and to be part of something bigger than they ever dreamed about.....The fact they are not paid, but given allowances for housing, food, and fuel....means it is clear they are not doing it for the money, but something else.... Pointing the finger at Uncle Sam for handing out pink slips, sending them home to find other employment, I hope that's not your excuse for all these guys flocking over to ISIL is it....Know your enemy is that not what you where preaching.... The fact that Sadam and his bunch of bullies ruled Iraq with an Iron fist where Sunnis, so we are clear the Minority in IRAQ with only 35 % of the total population , while the Shia make up over 65 % of the population....So while in power under the Sadam regime and the Sunni henchmen killed thousand s upon thousands of Shia Iraqis ....After Sadam was disposed off, do you really think they were going to hand the keys to the kingdom back to the Sunni's...Shia Muslims took control of the country and their policies are not popular with the Sunni's, who are used to get their own way....or killing those that opposed them....Ya really nice guys....So yes ISIL does have limited support of some Sunni areas, because of the dislike of the Shia government..... But that does not represent the majority of Sunnis or Shia population, nor does it give them the numbers to demand a separate nation or a region of their own....In the real world we have rules and laws and processes to make that happen , taking up arms and forcing it to happen is well illegal in the eyes of the rest of the civilized world....we did not see Quebec use suicide bombers or terrorist attacks to get there separation....No....they followed the rule of law....So the civilized world stood up and said this is not right, and started dropping bombs, on ISIL targets....that's what happens when you take up arms and deify the rest of the world....and start killing whom ever you feel the need to.....It makes me puke that your post comes across with some empathy for these murders, like we should some how feel sorry for them, I mean shit they have lived their all their lives, and now they are told they can't kill their fellow countrymen because of race, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, have the same extremist views of Islam, etc, etc ...And these guys some how deserve some big crocodile tears of mercy..... If it is what we should do then lets make it easier for them to do....lets solve all our problems with violence....I like your new truck big guy, I'll be coming over with my new shot gun to take it later....maybe next time it is your house , your wife and kids....because that is the civilized thing to do....

Maybe you can explain why F-117 were so successful in initial raids over Bagdad, the worlds most heavily defended airspace at the time, without a single loss...ask the pilots if stealth did not help....And If speed and alt was all that mattered why not send in F-15 at 2.5 mach and 60,000 alt ....Shit even a 22 cal rifle can take down a fighter, or a 10 dollar lazer....Stealth gives you another tool for pilots to defeat the enemy....it's not the end all to be all, just another tool....but you can't use it if you don't have it...

Yes you are, your current statement says as much, and your justification is what exactly ? You state an extra 20 bil seems excessive to bring us in line with 2 % of GDP.....and yet we spend over 27 bil on immigration every year and nobody blinks an eye at that amount.... Nobody in Canada wants a large military, what they want is one that could do all of it's tasks with ease, one that is equipped properly, one that looks after it's vets and members who have sacrificed so much for this nation..... Currently our ARMY is the largest element in the forces, it is made up of 3 very under manned Brigades....;lacking in so much equipment it is a joke....recent history has clearly spelled this out for all Canadians to see.... DND has said in the media on many occasions that the maximum rotation it could field long term was just over 3500 people....WOW....3500 men and women.... ICE storm, not a huge event , but when DND responded it took all 3 under manned brigades to bring all the resources to bear and solve the crises and it was not enough, that numbers also includes a large contribution from the reserve world... Winnipeg floods, also took all 3 army brigades, reserve units, many airforce and NAVY pers....and it was not enough....the fact was more than 75 % of the forces was in one city at one time..... Anything bigger than these two events will quickly over whelm our forces capabilities to respond and make a difference....What does that mean...it means Canadians will not get the help they need when they need it, it means there could be loss of life.... The Army is the rich cousin compared to all the other elements....and it's in poor shape....12 ships is not enough to patrol one of the largest coastlines in the world, plus maintain all it's NATO and US defense agreements.... SO history has shown us we can not preform light combat duties for any length of time, nor can we effectively respond to anything larger than the ICE storm or Winnipeg floods.....That has got to ring some bells with some one.... Not to mention all the leasons we have forgotten from the rest of the Combat operations or wars we have fought...How many lives were lost because we were not ready, how many times have we said never again....and yet here we are, in a world that is not any safer than it was in 1937....

Yes and you mentioned different SAR agencies.....and yet when something difficult comes around how many of those agancies get called out....Say like the rescue in the artic, where Sar techs jumped into the frozen water to rescue someone on a piece of floating ice.....Or the weather is so bad that only military aircraft fly....Don't get me wrong I have repect for anyone that puts their lives on the line to save others....But we could hardly say that DND's SAR techs can be out done by other organizations in regards to training, equipment, resources available.....I mean how many could pull off a rescue attempt some 50 kms from alert, at the fringes of our northern borders... If your looking for excuses to down size the Military, or to underfund it then fine, stand up and just do it.....Instead governments have been stabbing our military in the backs for generations, with small cuts here and there, to where we are today, on life support....Politicians are afraid to look its military members in the eyes and tell them what they are really thinking....and shut down our military.....because they don't want to fund it properly.

Your right it is not a civilian organization, it is a Military organization controlled by our government. The same way the RCMP are controlled by our government. Both are trained in riot control. The only difference is the military does not have powers of arrest...They do however have powers to detain, Until RCMP members arrive to make an arrest.... The military has handled many civilian unrest problems within our nation, including Prison riots, OKA riots, FLQ crisis...It has also been the lead organization in providing security for things like the games in BC, G-4 summits etc..... It has even taken control of the Kingston max security pen while it rioted and the guards went on strike....It has done many things that it does not specialize in but has always been there when they are called upon.

Hows that....DND trains on civil unrest / riots all the time...again OKA comes to mind, when clearing the bridge and the town of protesters. Was done with shields, batons, CS gas, and rifles....So what makes it legitimate ?

Yes they were misinformed, 2 RCR Gagetown, was told to send up a list of non wpns such as NVG's Night vision goggles, thermal devices and scopes, and some comms equipment , RCMP pick all this up and returned it later the same week. We also sent up a few LAV's with drivers and crew commanders to provide armored transport , but they were not used.... We did not send up any wpns as the police officers did not have any training on them at the time...they have since trained on the C-7/8 at CFB Gagetown.