Army Guy

Both of these expansion projects are in direct result of the NSPS....Take a look at what these ship yards did after the last Navy contracts, Irving actually down sized and moved to Halifax, Quebec ship yards are close to being bankrupt...and yet today you expect a long term build is going to solve all this.....maybe if it takes 30 years to build 15 ships....

Are you saying we will lose the capacity to repair ships if they are not built in Canada. Besides the equipment inside a war ship is not repaired at any Canadian ship yard.....but rather at the source, in our case mostly US companies... So in this case it boils down to a few things.....A sole source contract, a big no no....but hey we are putting Canadians to work, while we leave the air force guys scratching their heads asking how did they do that.....Another reason the entire program is vastly under funded sources are saying by as much as 50 %.....we wanted 15 warships, and they predict only 7 now....and capability is still in question..... Building a better warship for cheaper costs, seems to make no difference here, and yet we balk at 9 bil on aircraft....maybe DND is learning something..... Hiring Canadian workers is one of the major selling points here.....along with reviving a dead industry....Because our workers will be taxed and spend their money in Canada....has anyone figured out much wages will be paid out in say 15 years....I can't see any more than a bil....after all we are only talking about maybe a 1000 workers....The rest is paid to Irvings who put there money off shore....Not much taxes paid there...

And I fully agree with you 100 % we should have drawn a line in the sand long ago, and instead we have pissed away that moment, and our ship building capabilities are limited to small to medium sixed ves that our current yards are capable of. So the real question is how much are we prepared to pay our of our tax payers money to revive them.....and what will be done to keep them a vital part of our industry base.

The problem is not wilbers attitude, take a look around it is the times we live in, Major industry we were once renown for such things as building ships, aircraft, are all but gone....Canadian industry closed up shop and left for greener pastures....it has become more cost effective to produce in other nations.....It is staring you right in the face and you refuse to see it....it is not just ship building etc it includes everything.....leaving us with trees and mud to dig in.... So when I asked you are we drawing a line in the sand, and we are attempting to reverse all of that there was no answer...if this is the way of the future, out sourcing why even go that route, why not embrace something that has been here for years and years and use that to our advantage....Why spend bils upon bils on employing a few thousand workers in a few depressed places....when those Bils could be used more effectively such as creating jobs, our navy getting ships that work,and want, for much cheaper....

I Might buy into this whole ship building program if Irving and the others were going to actually try to and make an effort into building ships, after the navies contract is done, any type of ship, to compete on the inter national market. But history has shown us the same result over and over again...Irving and other ship yards will down size keep their R&D funds and wait once again for a governments hand out....A hand out worth bils of our tax dollars. to support an industry that died along time ago. The writing is on the wall has been for decades, so long it has faded and barely readable....The whole premise of building these ships in Canada is not to rebuild the ship building capability as that was gone long ago.... but to make jobs.... even at the cost of Ship numbers, and capabilities employed inside of them.....Does that sound right to you....And if so why is this not done with every major project across the board....in every dept across Canada.... And it comes at a time when our military needs every dollar it can get, but to sell it to Canadians it was sold as a revival of an old industry, a job creation platform..... We have seen time after time military funding diverted or canceled, put on hold for long periods of time....and when projects do finally get actioned they look nothing like the original plan....DND will smile put on a few photo ops for our political masters everyone is happy, DND just grateful they got something new.....everything is good, at least on the outside.... If tax payers really knew the true condition of our military, they'd be lined up outside of parliament wanting answers....

How about the women's first Olympic gold medal hockey team....

So we are down to drawing a line in the sand. which happens to be ship building ? we haven't built war ships in over 20 years. As far as the defense industry goes here in Canada it is already filled with rusted out factories.....sure there is a few examples left....Such as GD LAV plant....our small arms plant in Quebec....a very few small un heard of companies making armoured cars.....And even those few companies do not enjoy a level of support from Canadians see LAV's sold to Saudi....It's not like this all happened yesterday, most of these industries have been closed forever and a day....the last fighter to be produced in Canada was what exactly ? the last combat ship was when ? the last tank, or major army piece of equipment is when? Our military contracts are not worth gearing up a major industry to produce long term.....nor are they ready to compete on the international market.....But hey...here in Canada we waste money to employ a few guys with bils of tax dollars the real winners here are going to be the Irvings and other ship yards who keep there money off shore.... If Canada does not have the stomach nor financial strength to compete in these industries then why bother....So we are left with they create jobs and it is good for the economy as the funding stays in Canada....well most of it stays in Canada, the wages earned from Canadian workers, most of the other companies are HQ's in other nations....and the Irvings well most of their wealth is hidden in banks off shore.... So is saving bils in dollars in contract costs and using it to actually create more jobs than the few created in ship yards....

Your absolutely right, This one project is a rare thing, Some would say the specs of what the military wanted were written to rule out most aircraft. When the military asks for a new piece of equipment it does through writing up a specs request....it does not mention any name, or brand or manufacture, just specs, I need it to do this, fly this fast, carry this and that....it is PWSG a civilian organization that goes out and rounds up everything that comes close to those specs....A while the military will test everything, even make recommendations, but the final say is made by government...who will squeeze every dollar out of a program it can, to ensure it has Canadian content, Canadian jobs, etc etc ...the end result normally ends up being something that DND has passed over, or bottom of the pack.....Kind of like your wife picking out your tools.... In the case of the F-35 is unique because nobody is offering a similar product....

Exactly my point, There is only a limited amount of resources, we've always known that and yet we continue to add conditions that soak these resources up. Job creation nice concept but when the Ship building program was it created, was funding attached to it for the purpose to creating jobs....was funding attached to it to cover grants and loans made to ship builders so they could improve there ship yards to actually build war ships....Some say, today that the ship building program is vastly under funded, and to achieve that goal originally set out bils more will be needed...If there is no more funding coming, then the original plan is worth nothing more than paper it is written on, DND will be forced to trim the fat, meaning less ships or less capabilities.... Had we just gone ahead and had say Germany build us something similar as say one of the new Meko class, or another design we could have provided the navy with All the ships the original asked for, with all the capabilities we could only dream of and saved bils ....And as Kimmy suggested dumped those savings into other projects that will create jobs else where.... Yes we did, Problem with a long term building program , while it solves the issues of employment , maintaining ship building capabilities is that the costs go up every year, have those costs been added to the forecasted funding ? along with new tech improvements, 5 years from now new tech might change our cofiguation of the ship, or change the capabilities of a ship....or the threat may change....there is a lot to consider and only so much funding....then to add to all these problems we add in job creation, and some crazy scheme to re build a ship building industry, that in most cases will fade into the sun set once the last naval ves is built....Why not just come to the realization that that industry is long gone....and move on....what is next building our own aircraft, because long ago we were good at it .....waste of money.... Maybe you should look again, use the funding saved for other projects, or infra structure upgrades.....build jobs and get our infra structure repaired.... No, I voted Con, but Trudeau does not own the idea of infra structure improvements or a vehicle for job creation....And to be honest with you I thought Trudeau would have bombed long before now, but I guess there is more to him than being a school teacher good on him, and I hope he truly does fix a lot of the problems this nation has....

So there should be no issues of investing the additional dollars the program is going to need. I've had this same discussion with Derek, the are positives to building ships here, but I think we loose fact of the main objective which is to give our navy guys the best ships for their money...But then again that is never the main priority is it.... No not their Warships, but then again the already have a world class ship building program, that has and is building world class ships..... What lessons did they learn, was it a ship building program is very expensive to maintain, to keep employees current is hard to do unless they building warships....that maintaining the facilities is expensive....And yet Irving sold it all off, release most of the experience workers, and went to work building what fishing boats....not just Irving but on the navy side as well those with experience are gone....as are the ship rights and other experts.... Many of the other nations offered to build what ever we wanted, including France and Germany and i'm sure Britain would be on board if we had asked..to build a better warship, with more capabilities, for cheaper.... Want an employment project lets start with our infra structure....not with gaining back an art that we lost, at the expense of the navy...

Canada's shipbuilding program is another excellent example. Building ships in Canada is way more expensive than having them built in other countries, Even with the higher costs, quality or speed of the build is not always there. Most of the time this costs come at the expense of Capabilities' of the end product. yes we get Canadian built ships but some of the bells and whistle's the navy was looking for are left out.... Britain had they're AOR's built else where for a fraction of the price... While there is some benefits in building them here, the real question maybe is it worth re building our ship building capacities, lessons learned from the last time we did this don't seem to have been a factor in deciding to do it all other once again....What ever did happen to the ship yard in ST john NB, it was closed down and moved to Halifax NS, to a smaller facility because Irving Decided it was more cost effective.....

That is a major problem with any military purchase, it is not just the fact we want to buy a piece of equipment, but it must also provide a whole slew of of other conditions as well, It must provide jobs in Canada , it has to have a percentage of Canadian content, it needs to provide a large percentage of off shoots for Canada in other industry areas, such as if the contract is worth x bil , the contractor must also spend x amount in Canada....There is a lot more conditions each contractor must live up to...all of it must be met or no sale... I wish it was as simple as you suggested, but it is not often the equipment we want is not available because of the above conditions and we settle for something DND really don't want.. A good example of that would be the LSVW veh build by western star BC, the government told DND that was the veh of choice, even after it had failed all the testing by DND In Canada..was forced to take it to a desert environment US to test, and some how it passed with flying colors...Today most of these vehs lay in compounds rusted out, broken down, and still no replacement vehs forth coming....

This discussion is about Canadian soldiers how were either injured or killed in the Afghanistan conflict.....and them not getting the help they need....."You" decided to take this down another rabbit hole by introducing this statement, That being a soldier is a much safer environment than being a Canadian Civilian.....You go on to introduce a source that uses the time frame from 1974 until 2006.....which hardly covers the period of time we were originally talking about The Afghan conflict.....Instead proves nothing other than the fact that during those years of peace time, it was safer being a soldier than a regular civilian.....So it is moot.....you then carry on with other comparisons which are more dangerous...to which I said that was not what the topic at hand was about..... Still following me ....you continue to brush off the facts that our AFGHANISTAN vets are not being treated fairly by using some job comparison and the danger they face.....As for my numbers being cherry picked....yes they where, it shows that being a Canadian Infantry soldier during the Afghanistan conflict was a lot more dangerous than being a regular Canadian citizen. Where the facts and stats are also clear....1 out of every 4 infantry men and women were wounded or killed in this conflict....those numbers become more diluted when compared to the entire Canadian military numbers, and yet they are much higher than any....and i'll repeat this so there is no misunderstanding "Any" regular Canadian citizens occupation..... It was you who set out the conditions of what is more the definition of "dangerous" by solely counting the deaths occurred while carrying out their occupations..... All you have to do is the math.....and it clearly spells it out....

I would say look again , If Russia was not a threat why is NATO an option...Russia is busy re vamping it's military, even with oil at it's lowest....try looking at the new equipment they are fielding ...and even their old equipment is light years ahead of what we have in inventory....

It is nice to cherry pick your numbers to suit your needs, why go back to 1972 what is so magical about those numbers, and then stop in 2006, when the Afghan mission was just getting cranked up....while one does not have to be a rocket scientist to see why it was to dilute the numbers...our military was not involved in combat ops at those times.....but rather peace keeping. Hardly makes your source valuable does it....Nor does it back up your claim that service in Afghanistan was not as risky as say a fishermen's..... So I came up with some my own numbers.....That reflect the situation as you claimed it.....There are 3 Infantry Regts in Canada, made up of 3 Bn's each, each bn has approx. 650 pers in it.....for a grand total of 5850 infantry soldiers.... 158 soldiers died of them 125 of them are infantry soldiers.... 2179 soldiers were wounded of them 1540 are Infantry soldiers.... for a total of 1665 soldiers wounded or killed in action..... Just as a note I took out all those infantry reserve guys so not to inflate the numbers.....Right now without doing the math it might be as high as 33 % chance of getting wounded or killed..... How high was those numbers for the fishermen again, what about the high school are they as high as 33 % . But just to be realistic here I would say approx. 25 %.... as numbers of Infantry flux a bit during the Afghan years....that would be a 1 in 4 chance of getting wounded or killed.....

It was not my intention to turn this discussion into a dick measuring contest, There are plenty of jobs that involve more risk than going to IRAQ or Afghanistan....Not sure where you going with this, other than to say the risked soldiers face in combat are minimal, not as dangerous as going to high school or fishing....both of which I have done, and trust me there were thousands of times during my tours in Afghanistan that is exactly where I wished I was.....the years between 08 an 10 were the worst i'd seen, leaving the safety of the wire, meant getting blown up in an IED strike , we would tell the newbies it is not IF we hit an IED but when as it was going to happen.....not sure if you know what 500 lbs of explosives does to an armoured veh.....or it's occupants but after seeing some of your comrads, turned to jello it plays on your mind....every day, every KM you drive, every fresh pot hole.....and if I asked me to work on a lobster or crab boat during those days, I would have taken it in a heart beat..... During my 3 tours of duty I buried 8 of the best people I know, and seen 21 maimed or crippled.....that is my story....most vets can tell you the same....it does not make my job any easier, or less risky that is not the point....the point is I did we did those things in the name of our nation......and now are asking for help ....if it is too much to ask just say so,

Perhaps there is some confusion on the topic. If our nation declares war on a nation then all of it's soldiers do not have a choice, by law a member has signed a binding contract to serve his or her nation. so here is the choices, one can apply for objector status and lay out in detail why you can not fight in this conflict....if granted you will be employed else where in the world, or released....this choice is rarely granted....Next choice refuse to go or participate in the conflict, results are you are charged and imprisoned. has not happened since WWII but it is in the laws. Next is to desert or flee, once again you are declared a criminal and hunted down like a dog....until the government grants you freedom.... We say Afghanistan conflict was a volunteer conflict because most soldiers thought it was worth it....their comrades where going so they left as well...However in reality not everyone was in the same boat specialized jobs with low numbers were often told your going it is your turn, also the higher your rank the fewer you are those gentlemen and ladies were also told they were going.....everyone has a choice they could make, a refusal here would mean your career would halt, or release from a job they love doing, leaving behind comrads, and living with a guilty conscience the rest of your life.... ......it is after all the job we signed up to do and what we trained to do, hence why most just stuck up there hands.....now or later they were thinking.....remember we only have less than 68,000 military members of that only 15,000 or slightly more are combat soldiers, and 3800 every 6 months your number comes up quick....to give you an idea the Average infantry SGT will have done 4 or more tours...most 6 to 8 months long.... The military does accommodate those soldiers with special reasons, such as religion, I remember a Ex muslim flight engineer was refused because the Israelis government did not want him in the country, anyone that the enemy would single out for special treatment were also questioned, for instance Jewish members were briefed on the possible consequences of getting captured....and they still put up their hands.... Why, well conscience is a too way street, how does someone decide to stay back when your brothers in arms are going, how would you cope if anything happened to a close friend....or to someone in your section that maybe your actions could of prevented....Like I said before many times this is not like any other job but a way of life, built around loyalty, honor, sacrifice....Yes they chose to do this job, and in the process feel in love with the comradeship, people, traditions and everything else that goes with it.....It changes who you are, to the point you don't want to leave it....or don't want to try something else....

Well that would depend on what you call on par, Canadian soldiers are in the top 5 globally for pay rates, but to get to that point most of the benefits we had once enjoyed where clawed back or dispensed with altogether. Remember it was not all that long ago the media was reporting about soldiers going to food banks, applying for welfare assistance and lower income housing....It was not until the federal government decided to give us the same wages as the public service workers that worked for DND, that is right there was a time when a soldier made considerable less than a civilian working for the same dept....today when the federal public services gets a raise so does the military....today the average soldier is paid a little better than the federal worker....but the jobs are not comparable.... There are plenty of western armies that are paid less than our nations soldiers, but they also receive more benefits, such as housing assistance , or if they live on bases in military PMQ's the rents are lowered, In DND rents are bases or the average rent in that district....if you live in a big city you pay big city rent, That benefit was taken away because civilians were complaining about the different rents....remember these homes where built in the late 50 's, today in 2016 there has been a hand full of new build PMQ's across the country, the rest are under going major updates, but there are a lot still over 40 years old that have received little to no updates.....DND does not own these homes, they were taken over by another Federal government dept, who claims all rent collected is going back into these homes.....If you seen they condition of them you would ask where all these rent money is going.....There are to many lost benefits to mention here but you get the point..... Canadian military overall treatment of it's military members rates in the lower portion of middle of the pile. for a nation with maybe 65,000 troops that is bad....But this is not news the media covers this stuff all the time, but nobody listens.....well unless it is negative news such as sucide rates, sexual harassment rates....then everyone has an opinion.....

www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11-630-x/11-630-x2015001-eng.htm The above link gives some explanation on some of the reasons for the decline, very few of them have to do with our justice system, none of them have to do with prison or prison conditions. The same goes for sentencing handed out....Instead it has more to do with the condition of our economic state. the healthier it is the less crime we have.... You'll also find that the rates of decrease are really minimum in the ranges of 5 to 8 % overall....so while you are technically right there has been a decrease in crime rates....and yet one of the concerns spelled out in the posts above is convicts being released early because of it costs occurred in housing prisoners......Sentencing is also some what of a problem, life does not mean life for serious crimes.....it is in the rare case that murder one means 25 years served.....There are thousands of cases where some prisoners have served much less than that, in some cases 18 months, others average are 10 to 12....to add insult to this whole issue BC decides to open up club med, where singing camp fire songs over a fire on the beach some how reduces crime rates....and is a good use of tax payers dollars. I guess the real question here is not the sentencing but what price do we put on another's life....is 10 to 12 years served in a cushy prison it ? I have not lost any one to murder.....but 10 to 12 years in my opinion is not enough....On top of all that It cost tax payers 100,000 plus to house the average prison, to provide all the privileges they have available to them....The only thing we have taken from these people is freedom of movement.....everything else they enjoy and on the tax payers dollar.....No one has seriously looked at making prisons a zero sum cost, because it would infringe on some human rights.....no mention of the victims family human rights there at all....It's all about the criminal..... So while you may feel strange about wanting change, I think it is something we should have been debating this long ago....like spending those bils we spend to have these guys play tennis we could be spending it in high crime areas....on those areas stated in the above link.....areas that will see real results in reductions.....

I would have thought that if I understand your position correctly your main concern is with the bottom dollar, are you saying that these type of prisons are more cost effective than housing them in traditional prisons?

Call it what you will, fact is your not happy with the decision, and have pointed it in the direction of the liberal government. And my counter point to yours was the Cons did not do much better, yes overall they did spend more funding on the military, but most of that funding was spent because soldiers paid for it in their blood, for instance replacement of Ilitis jeeps, came at the cost of 4 soldiers killed in a IED attack, the list goes on, and on and the equipment they did end up getting was just enough to solve the problem in Afghanistan, not the entire military.... They were forced to make those buys because of public opinion.....DND briefs government officials daily on the needs and wants not to mention all the photo ops the government had with the troops over there, they were told straight from the horses mouth what we needed to get the job done....and it was ignored until enough soldiers had died or where wounded......That is not the actions of a responsible government....So while history will show the country that the Cons treated the military better than the liberals , well sir the bar was not set very high..... That's where I see the hypocrisy of the whole issue.... Thanks for the praise. It was not my intention to single you out but rather offer another thought on this issue , and could not respond with all of this rant in the status update . I understand your frustrations you have when it comes to government employees, I too feel the same way , the pay and benefits packages are some what higher than the civilian work place. And while it is true the Armed forces members are considered government employees , I think that is where the comparison ends. As a member of the DND you sign on to what is called unlimited liability, which translates into your employer can order you to your death if the situation calls for it.....Not many civilians jobs can do that. There is no over time in the military, which means you can be asked to work beyond anything that is reasonable....depending on the situation one could be asked to work weeks on end with very little sleep...try getting a Government employee to do that....there are some benefits like free medical, dental, for members only, there is other benefits such as field pay which I believe is around 11 dollars a day, which is to pay you fro being worked 22 hours each day....Jump pay , Danger pay, diving pay, all taxed hazardous duty pay which is based on the threat level and time already spent in a combat zone.....which amounts to maybe a half months wage is tax free....on top of our pay...But one has to put all of that into perspective as well , to earn that a soldier must be in combat, or face a very high level of risk.....meaning death, sleeping in a dirt hole, with cold rations to eat, and luke warm water to drink, and survive 55 degree heat during the day, and 20 degrees during the night, all while wearing close to 30 pounds of extra clothing and equipment, not counting what your ruck sack weighs in at , mine use to top 110 lbs.....I think by anyone standards the soldiers earn those bonuses..... Other than that the military is not at the top of the government employee pay bracket, not even close....RCMP, Fire fighters, are paid much more than our nations soldiers, I won't get into other governmental desk jobs who wages I could only dream about....What I will say is you won't find many soldiers complaining how much they earn, compared to say just 20 years ago, we had soldiers going to food banks, working 2 jobs, or applying for welfare....hence why we don't complain much now....so we have been on the other side of the table..... I guess what I am trying to say is it is not just a job....it is a way of life....it develops bonds between soldiers that last a life time, it develops character, who else would spend weeks on end with little food and water in minus 25 below weather, when everything you own is wet and cold....Not your typical government worker I bet.....It's not a glamour job or all that special of a job, but it does take a special kind of person to do it....it's not for everyone....it comes with a lot of personal sacrifice , like being torn away from family and friends at a moments notice, missing out on your kids growing up, first home run, first school play, first date.....to be thrown in the middle of some shit hole to do peace keeping, peace making or just there to help out Canadian citizens in their time of need....it has always been service before self....How many government employees can you say do all of that.... For me there is a gap several miles wide that separate the average governmental employee with those that serve our nation....but then again i'm bias.... I think one of the reasons soldiers do what they do is there is some unwritten rule that our nation will look after us if or when they come home broken, physically and mentally. In my eyes it is not us demanding more benefits but trying to collect on a promise that was made to us.....not only by the military, but our government , as well by it's citizens.....How does a nation motivate and send it's young into battle , without these some kind of assurances... A couple of days ago a bunch of old friends gathered for some beers, it is a yearly thing we do to raise a beer and toast fallen comrad's to tell funny stories about them... to laugh, to cry, to celebrate they're lives....we got taking about our own injuries and experiences with VAC, and the military....A close friend of mine has blown up by a donkey IED....sounds funny I know , trust me I has been the brunt of more than a few jokes....any ways the blast threw him and most of the section more than 20 feet , most of us were lucky, he received a large chunk of donkey bone to the upper thigh....and almost bleed out if he had not received medical treat right away he would of....During the course of his surgery they removed a large chunk of muscle and his right testicle.....he is sent home, to recover....recovery takes him almost 8 months....a couple years later he files a claim....it pains him to walk long distances, and he has difficulties to shovel his drive way....his intention was to get his driveway plowed during the winter months....for his injuries VAC sent him a 1500 dollar check , told him he did qualify for anything else....He sent the check back, with a few choice words attached to it.... The waiting period just to get access for mental health problems is 3 months, after that it can take up to a year to get your first appointment to see a shrink....most members wait until things get much worse, they are afraid of leaving the only life they know....remember it is not a job but a way of life....during these waiting times a lot of these guys get into trouble with drugs and alcohol as it makes the mental pain go away....which leads to trouble with the law , and the military chain of command....a lot of these guys will get pushed to the side lines, released from the only thing they loved doing, and forced to fend for themselves.... try getting a job with that hanging over your head....they loose their families, jobs, friends, everything..... These guys are just the PTSD guys there is more, those guys with physical disabilities....loss of limbs, or functions of most body parts, these guys are not being treated fairly, we all read about it in the papers, and yet thousands of voices go unheard.... These are the guys I wish this funding could go to.....instead of relying on the public sector programs for help....these guys don't have access to workmans comp.....nor are they entitled to unemployment what they rely on is the VAC and governmental policies to look after them....the bottom line is we are not living up to any of the promises, The Afghanistan conflict is over with, and they just like the vets before them will soon be forgotten....

I just was reading some of the recent status updates in particular the one on the liberals canceling or side lining the war memorial. and the outrage it has caused.... http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/afghan-war-memorial-in-limbo-as-liberals-roll-back-perceived-tory-militarism As a military veteran of that conflict I wanted to share a few thoughts.... Is this really the best way we can honor our Afghan vets, by building something out of stone , putting a few names on a wall that most will not even know or care about. That most vets will never see in the first place. If I had a choice between this wall, or using that funding to really help our vets that truly need it then I vote for the latter.....This is just another example of the dead and wounded of this conflict being used as a political event...only this time to some how denounce the liberals and their treatment of vets.... Make no mistake I am no liberal big L or little l, my believes are conservative with a capitol C....but I also give credit where it is due....The liberal government has taken steps to undo what was in my opinion a great disservice to the military and it's vets.....and under the Harper government they failed to live up to the responsibility of looking after our troops and vets.... Yes the government has created a few programs to that on the outside look very good, and yet there our vets who we once held up as heros for photo ops still today face massive hurdles , such as proving year after year injuries were indeed received in battle, having to prove injuries were a result of military service...Still trying to solve the PTSD issues that not only plague the military but every first responder police, fire fighters, EMT techs.....Having to fight with the same government that had not issue with deploying our troops for simple benefits. cutting the red tape takes a bull dozer to do. and trying to explain to those people you ultimately decide on who gets what is frustrating beyond belief....They have absolutely no idea what the military even does, and are paid to monitor the bottom dollar instead of making sure our vets get the help they need. There are more programs out there right now for our vets most of them are privately funded, some get government assistance but not all. It is truly a sad day, when our nation turns it back on it's vets....who have given everything and more.... Keep the memorial , and put the funding into the care of our vets.... While the Harper government has been credited with being pro military, they never really did all that much. Nothing that was not already popular with the people, things soldiers had already paid for in their blood....Don't get me wrong the liberals had a worse record....but the harper government track record is hardly something to hold up a cheer for...

Canada is bound by these laws as part of agreements it has signed, which protects not only the advanced technology we purchase but also the tech we sell or create.....These nations have spent untold bils on R&D development , and want to recoup that investment some how...to just give it away is not how the defense industry works.... Without these laws we would be forced pay for our own R&D costs to develop our own products....or purchase an export version....that lacks the same specs of the original one. Many nations have tried reverse engineering of products all the time, and yet fail to master the same quality and performance of the orginal, to even suggest that 3 d printers will one day be able to produce a complete aircraft with the same specs and performance is a little far fetched.... Many US aviation firms already hold a firm presence in Canada, Lockmart is one of them, with some of the F-35 pieces already being built in Canada or will be built in Canada. not sure where you were going with this....And depending on the contract we sign , our aircraft mechs will be certainly opening up the hood.....and fixing stuff that is deemed sensitive. If history has taught us anything, it is we lack the will to properly fund and equipped or military forces, these next fighters will be in the air for atleast 30 plus years, if not more.....the only thing that will change that is a major leap in tech that makes these new fighters useless....no we has a nation will be flying manned aircraft well after most nations have switched to unmanned.....

My point is this, Our entire sentencing program is based on progressive sentencing, ie the worse the crime the longer the term. it has nothing to do with financing or budgets or funding at all. The judge does not ask the court clerk for a budget brief before sentencing, nor does he dismiss the case because there is no money to imprison a convicted felon. When we start releasing convicts because of budgetary reasons then we have a real serious issue, the very fabric of our criminal system will be threatened. While you say there is no real evidence on longer sentences on deterring crimes, What evidence is there that these criminals will not reoffend when released early....Shorter terms means less rehabilitation can be administered, and while budgets get tighter, these types of programs will be cut.....to the point there will be no readjustment programs at all..... Not to mention with the luxuries they have in prison today , does it deter anyone from the life of crime....take a trip back in time when prisons were just that prisons no tennis courts, no TV, no intra net, no programs at all,....and tell me the if the amount of convicts that re offended is smaller or larger.... No one wanted to return ever.....Now I get we as a nation have grown in the way we treat our prisoners, some one once said you could tell a great deal about a nation by the way the treat their prisoners... And yet the what has the corrections dept done about growing costs, have they looked into programs such as the one happening down south. here prisoners are responsible to grow all their own food, they sell the surplus and use the profits to fund their own rehabilitation programs, housing is kept to a minimum, because they are kept in tents....no tv, no tennis courts, no nothing they work all day ...That jail produces a positive cash flow. it cost the tax payers nothing.....inmates are taught valuable farming skills, machine maintenance skills, plus leadership skills running small teams of prison workers, and it has one of the lowest re offender rates in the US..... The question we have to ask ourselfs is this ...What is the purpose of prisons in the first place, is it to punish, or provide a rehab institute.....regardless of what anyone thinks Prison is a place where Criminals go to serve their time for breaking the law, to remove them from society and keep the rest of the citizens safe....Like sending your kid to their room... Why can't we use prisoners as a free source of labor, to lower the costs of housing and feeding them, and if our laws have changed to keep us from doing that then perhaps it is time we look at changing them back. Our prison systems should not be a free ride, where convicts go to just serve time....they should be going there to repay their debt to society.... Use that money we spend on re habilitation and spend it else where like dealing with the conditions that put them there in the first place.....spending it on the portions of society that have not broken the law yet....improve the conditions of our nations poor, give the kids in those groups programs that teach them crime does not pay..... Letting convicts out early because of lack of space or funding is not the way to go either....

You and some others seem to think that this is all about dollars and cents, forgetting that sentencing is part of the law and order process, but it is based on a gradient scale... the worse the crime, the longer the sentence. it is that way by design to give reasonable citizens pause, before they go off on some criminal spree....For every action their is a reaction, and you must then pay for your mistake in judgement.....So yes it is a punishment....with out it what would hold the entire law and order process in tact.....if there was no punishment what would deter people from re offending..... And while it does cost money to keep prisoners locked up....but there are plenty of examples of housing prisoners for a lot less, in fact in the US there is one prison in the south that generates a profit. and while its practices may or may not fit into Canadian law, it does prove that there are options that will reduce costs to housing and caring for prisoners..... The idea of letting criminals out of prison early to reduce costs is counter productive.....it undermines the entire sentence practices why sentence a man to a certain length of time only to let him go early because of funding issues......The law and order process does not take any funding issues into account....it has no effect on initial sentences....there fore sentences should not be shorten due to funding..... Other areas should be look at reducing costs.... There are others who posted here that say there is no connection of harsh sentences reducing crime at all, perhaps that has to do with conditions in todays prisons, and what it costs for all the luxuries provided.....wonder how much that prison in the article costs the tax payers....And I doubt you ll find those conditions in that prison in the south US. Maybe we have to look at the past and conditions prisons back then and how many convicted convicts re offended, due to these conditions.....I think there is a dramatic difference....and while we have progressed a few million lite years since then when it comes to human rights.....but maybe , just maybe we have gone to far.....I mean come on, tennis courts, camp fires by the ocean...day passes into the public....do you think perhaps we have gone to far.....why not servants, vale parking, massage centers.....I forgot it is all about dollars and cents ...