Stoker

How well did the Wright Flyer work at first? What about the manned flight program? Did it cause a nuclear war? Where the Soviets able to keep up with Star Wars? Are you claiming that North Korea is not developing ICBMs? What about Iran? So if the United States had of "turned the other cheek" after 9/11, they would not be threatened in the future? IMHO, the United States would likley welcome present nuclear arsenals to be change to ones based on cruise missiles. With the reason being, the United States (and most other modern armed forces, including our Navy) can currently deal with cruise missiles, the same can't be said with ICBMS. Well thats the beauty about it, they are not asking for any money or land. I think all they want, is the support of our government, which in turn will allow the cooperation of our armed forces (via NORAD I assume). I'd think all Canadians would be affected, if any American cities fell victim to a nuclear attack......judging by the tone of a large amount of Canadians (some on this board), I'd say only a few would be affected emotionally........but all Canadians would be affected economically. Ex-ambassador warns against missile defence Exactly.

I don't Know, perhaps you should send him an email...... Thanks for furthering my point........modern European aircraft are not on par with a first generation stealth aircraft....... I notice you didn't mention all the conditions of the Indian USAF duel.......Imagine the worlds strongest airforce, putting it's most vaunted (but aging) fighter, up against a third world airforce (with Russian aircraft) and losing......all when there is talk of cuts in the F/A-22 program..... Still, I don't know how any of this is relavent and proves that American aircraft are not, ahead of their European counterparts....... Ignorant of geopolitics......... Whats going on in Iraq right now? Has the "American violence in Iraq", led to violence in the streets of the United States?

Canadian Employment Outlook: Shortage in Skilled Trades Workers to Intensify It has nothing to do with low wages...........

B.C. Federation of Labour Releases Plan to Double Apprentices in Four Years Now, caesar when both the right and the left (see above link) say that there is a trades person shortage.......me tends to think there is. No if you care to refuite the charges laid by the BC government, and the BC Federation of labour, go ahead, but please provide some proof.

When the Hitler youth was first started, did it involve weapons training and jew bashing from the beganing, or was it adopted with a gradual progression? Where did I say it was the same? You mention the suffering of the German people (I assume the suffereing of people of the other nations maters to you also) and in the same paragraph you ask why I bring it up. The answer is simple, I don't wish for history to repeat itself. Now you calim it a "inapproriate analogie", but you don't say why it is inapproriate......also, you never answered my question: Now if my reference to Hitler leads you to feelings of guilt, I'll gladly use a different dictator (of your choice) to refer to when I try and make my argument against an increase in state controls and lessoned indiviual freedoms. To reiterate, let's let kids be kids and allow the parents to raise their children without the fear of a state sponsered "fat police". (Notice I didn't say gestapo Cartman?)

One question Kimmy, don't you think that if developing a modern cruise missile that could threaten the United States were so easy, more nations would be doing it? Back to the old analogy.........are you going to put door locks onto your windows, and window bars onto your doors? And as I said before, Putin has nothing to worry about with the BMD program........it's not designed to defend against him.......nor is is desigend to defend against some uber hybrid cruise missile designed in a persons garage.........it's designed to protect against rouge states with limtied numbers of ICBMs. Good thing BMD is not a fixed fortification then eh? In that from the start, it will desigend to accept new technolgies with ease. With that said, you have to take into context the role BMD will play, in that it will only be a single "tool" in the "shed" of the defenders of North America.....namley NORAD. Also, it worth noting, that NORAD is being expended to not just defend against airborne threats, but seaborne as well. Add this to the increase intergration of intelligence services, and the defence of North America is already looking miles better than it did pre 9/11. Now you might think it comforting to note that the policy of the Bush administration is not one of a reactive defence (As mentioned in the Patton quote), but one of a pro-active, fluid offence (as if you didn't know ) , in which the fight will be taken to the enemy, and fought on his land, in his cities, in his houses and it will be his innocents that will be the collateral damage, not ours. Now since we are throwing out patton quotes, I'll add one: "No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." In that I agree very much that the best defence is a good offence, and that is why i question the lack of Commitment of Canadians to the armed forces and our limp wristed responce to the war in Iraq. (But thats another debate). With all that being said, I'd still feel safer if we didn't hold back any stops on programs that are designed to protect North America. As I said in another thread, the Soviet "gauntlet" has never been picked up, in that the arms race, well it might have slowed, has never stoped. And as I also mentioned above, BMD is not desgiend to protect against a large attack in which the Russians could launch. As you admitied, North Korea and Iran are most likely not up for an arms race with the United States......those countries are the "reasons" for BMD. One thing to mull over though: Type 94 ICBMs are not dead yet............

Then to intergrate it with GPS, it won't be something that you can make for five grand in your garage......... And WW II area buzz bombs were shot down with anti aircraft guns targeted by the human eye, not too mention propeller driven aircraft. That also begs the question, how are you going to launch it into the United States? Sure, and Hypothetically if your aunt had balls she would be your uncle........ One question though, why has no nation deployed their own "GPS system" outside of the United States and the European union? If thats the case, why do "rogue nations" (ie Iran, North Korea) develop ballistic missile technology instead of cruise missiles? Sure, but why haven't they replaced their ICBMs with scramjet missiles? Why did Putin relase just a while ago that they are making new ICBMs? Sure, or better yet, an enemy nation could just plant a spy into the US armed forces (ala Manchurian candidate) and just leave the "door unlocked"...... As I mentioned above, potentail enemy nations are developing ICBMs (North Korea exports them) and to the best of my knowledge, there are no major scramjet cruise missile projects within the third world.........so, with that information known, should we defend against the threat that is there, or the one not there? So, if BMD does not go forward, nations will no longer develop ICBMs? Star Wars/SDI/NMD/BMD has been in the works for decades, the threat of it has not caused a halt in developing ICBMs amongest Superpowers and rogue nations alike. And using the same analogy, who says that picking between the the door and the windows is an either or decision? Who says that the Americans won't or can't protect their back door, well at the same time putting up bars on the windows? Yet, the small niche market is worth billions of dollars and I can assure that it is not using Mercury era rockets to launch Sats into orbit. With that said, If the technology were to be develped that would make the the launching of commercial satellites cheaper, you don't think that it would be explored?

It looked that way for the Soviets. Yet the leader in crusie missile development is still the United States..........5K crusie missile, I'm sure you could reconstruct a copy of a WW II German buzz bomb for that amount......but will that Buzz Bomb be on par with a next generation Tomahawk? Ahh, the guidance you say, and what system do most modern cruise missiles use? GPS. Who controls the GPS sats? Would you agree that Japan leads in the computing science and electronics field? Whats Japan's relationship with the United States like? Whats their stance on BMD? Whats Australia's relationship with the United States like? Whats their postion on BMD? In both Australia's and Japan's cases, the answer is good and for it. The three most modern jet fighters made outside of the United States are the Eurofighter Typhoon, French Rafale, and Russian Su-37......all three don't come close to matching the stealth characteristics of the American F-117 stealth attack aircraft, which is early 80s technology.........not even in the same ballpark as the American F/A-22 Raptor. How do you protect your home? Do you use locks on your windows -or- locks on your doors? Having locks on both is a waste of money you see....... IOW words, don't you think it prudent to try and defend against all possable threats? Should car makers stoped designing new engines 40 years ago?

Thats not an option, of the nations mentioned by OBL, we are one of the few that hasn't been hit yet. Sadly, it's only a mater of time. I'm glad you find humor in that........I find it sad that we can't catch a ship that dumped it's grey water into the ocean.......how do we expect to be able find a determind terrorist. It goes back further then 10 years.......Mulroney and Clark didn't do much for the armed forces. IMHO, St. Laurent and Pearson's work was dismantled by Trudeau in the late 60s.

The lock was never designed to keep Putin out....it's a moot point.......BMD won't protect against a large scalew attack, the Russkies have nothing to wory about. Why else would Putin have allowed the treaty to be reworked? But only if it was that simple........look what Ronnie Rays Guns did to the Soviet Union with Star Wars.....they couldn't keep up with the cost. IOW, all the countries that are opposed to the United States BMD program, will have to spend the money to develop the technology to defeat it..... Now in the three examples that you cite, who leads the world in those three fields by atleast two or three generations? For christ sakes, the Chinese have only just put a person into space.......welcome to the 1960s China Most modern commercial satellites are launched on booster rockects that were derived from early ballistic misslie programs. As I said before, Layton's NDP is well on it's way to a majority government..........

Get your head out of your arse....... 'Bin Laden's message' Unfortunately, I'm affraid that it will take an attack on Canada, for the government and Canadians as whole to pull their heads out from the sand and realize that we live in a very dangerous world.......it's a bloody shame that we don't learn from past mistakes, ours and other peoples.

The vast majority of trade related work is not posted within a news paper.........since most trade related vacancies are aimed at being filled by tradesman, not your average Joe off the street. Union trade work is filled by the union halls, and almost never tenderd to the public. The vast majority of apprenticeship postions are posted (suprise suprise) on job boards at BCIT and Camosun Collage (amongest other trade schools). As for more experienced openings (ie journeyman postions) a large portion are normaly posted at (again suprise, suprise) places that trades people go to.......such as Wholesalers, outfitters, hardware stores etc. But the most common way of a tradesperson finding a job is networking.....aka.....word of mouth.

And who makes up the international consensus? Potentail rivals of the United States, be they China, Russia or continental Europe........the argument that it will start a new arms race is also foolish, for it to start "something" new, the old "something" had to of finshed. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, none of the five permanent members of the UN secuirty council have stoped developing nuclear weapons (Didn't France test one in the Pacific a few years ago?). Also, three other nuclear powers (India, Pakistan, Israel) continue to develop their arsenal, added to the fact that since the collapse of the Soviet Union, we have seen the birth of another nuclear nation (North Korea) and will possably see another in a short time (Iran). As for the case made about the recent nuclear development within Russia, that point is also moot. The United States doesn't intend for their BMD program to be able to defend against a large nuclear attack, hence the Russians have nothing to fear about.........why would Putin have renegotiated the anti-ballsitic misslie treaty if the prospects of another "Star Wars" frightend him so?

You're wrong caesar, all those example that you cite don't require more "precision and expertise", just different specifications. Also, as I said, having the ferries built in BC won't make a significant dent in unemployment......case being, those tradesman that were once employed by one of the three major shipyards in BC are unemployed only by their own choosing today.......... You must have heard of the skilled trade shortage within Canada.

Ahhh......no......I've worked in a shipyard (as a plumber/pipefitter) and I'm now doing residential plumbing.....hell, most of the "laid-off" workers from Vic-ship are building the new Save on Foods arena in Victoria or are on various other new construction sites. As I said, damn near every job/trade in a shipyard is transferable to another field......fitting a toilet into a new ferry is almost exactly the same as fitting a toilet into a new hotel or condo..........welding bulkheads on a new ferry is almost exactly the same as welding steel on a new high rise........not much difference in the painting field.......or electrical.......carpentry......etc.

Thats a myth.......... the vast majority of trades in a shipyard are transferable to other types of work......be they welders, pipefitters (which I'm one of), electricans etc.....

I'll post a few of the relevant links wrt the current proposal for anybody new to the debate: National Missile Defense Backgrounder, Canada and Ballistic Missile Defence ‘First Light’ for airborne laser weapon, Test marks antimissile milestone, but only a start And a well thought out editorial: Better to be inside shield than left out This is were is it's being blown out of proportion......nobody is asking us to put weapons in space, nor is the current US plan to do such a thing......I'd question if the technology is even there. Also, why would you want to? Wouldn't it make sense to destroy the ICBM before it went into space, and in doing so, preventing the need to defeat decoys in the reentry stage? What about the cost benifits? Wouldn't it be cheaper to have a converted 747 (armed with a laser) orbating outside of a potentail foes Airspace, 24/7? As opposed to developing space based weapons, then building them? And if the Americans were to develop offensive space based weapons in the future.......who says we have to take part? We don't have a hand in their nuclear deterent..... And to be clear, I'm in favor of Space based weapons for defence development and any potentail spin-offs that could be developed for any scientific space usage.......sadly, I just don't think it's in the cards any time soon........

Whatever happend with innocent until proven guilty?

Better to be inside shield than left out ........Again, layton's talking out of his arse......he should be the one saying he's sorry for misleading the Canadian public on BMD.

Fear......right? Same platform as Harper and Kerry.....

National Missile Defense The pros take.... ‘First Light’ for airborne laser weapon

The Dark Lord strikes again........ ........Not once, but twice This goes back to my question in the other thread, whats the BC NDP's platform?

So thats why his party is fourth in seats in the House of commons? Does the left (Labour?) in the British Parliament have a kook on par with comrade Layton? Layton should apologise for talking out of his arse, wrt BMD and the disscussion he had with Bush/Powell......or at the very least, make public the entire conversation that he had with Bush/Powell.....all Canadians should be privy to the secrect talks in which Bush outlayed his plan to build a Deathstar to Comrade Layton.

PM says Bush assured him missile plan won't involve space-based weapons......

Where did I defend anything? My responce to this topic, is the childish behavoir of Jack Layton.......If he was serious about this topic, he could have talked through/over the hecklers.....instead, when the boo-birds started, and layton didn't have the undivided attention of Parliment, he sat down, moaned and wasted time. But I will ask, what parlimentary protocol was breached? Is wasting the time of the speaker and fellow members of parliment a breach of protocol? If so, Layton should be punished. Layton had the opportunity to speak, did he not? Instead when the other MPs were expressing their freedom of speech, layton wasted time by repeatadly sitting down. In the end, layton got to speak his (twisted) mind, and was also granted the courtesy of having his idiotic ramblings shot down by the forgein affairs minister. What was his question again? He's an idiot!!! It has already been announced that missile defence will be voted on........does Layton expect Martin to see into the future, thus knowing the results of the future vote? If Mad Jack can't take the heat of some boo birds in the house of commons, perhaps he should go back to selling, used (abit enviromently friendly) cars or whatever he did before....