Stoker

But for the hell off it: Looking at Germany, Japan, Iraq: A tale of three occupations *If these quotes are too long Greg, feel free to remove them or ask me to and I will*

Rules are rules anticlimates. Perhaps you should go read them.......I'd also read ther section on personnal attacks and trolling

Then why is it here? Is Canada Ready for Loudmouth TV? As I mentioned above, I'd be very intrested to see the Canadian TV ratings for the last two weeks. IOW, since FOx has been up here. IMR, it seems that the recent CBC program bashing Fox and namely O'Reilly has registered with Fox. During tonights mail reading segment of the Factor, when confronted by a Canadian viewer that mentioned the recent CBC smear, Bill reponded by saying that the CBC will be dealt with on tommorow nights Factor. (I checked the Factor's website and it doesn't mention tommorw's program yet....So I guess we will have to stay tuned!) By the way, IMR, have you noticed the recent wave of Canadian letter writers? I'd guess-ta-mate it at about 20% of letter writers.......me thinks I have to fire one off after tommorows show.

Nope. I've yet to hear of any Fox personalities compare Turner or any other left-wing media moguls to a Stalin type character.

Are you saying that the second gulf war was illegal? If it was, why didn't any of the other members of the serurity council draw up a resoultion agaisnt the United States? I don't know.........but once the government is elected and established, they have the option to. I guess it depends on what the Bush administration thinks a stable Persian Gulf region is worth.....in dollar terms.

His comments were actually discussed on the Factor last night.........the man's truley grasping at straws......his network is being buried alive in all the ratings by Fox, so wouldn't it make sense for him to try and discredit a competitor? (Is he still married to Hanoi Jane?) The Funny thing though, I have not yet heard of Fox calling down the liberal media...... Does anybody know of a way to find Canadian TV ratings? I'd be very intrested to see were Fox news places up here so far.

It's a mater of persepctive..........Who invaded Kuwait? In that sense, one could look at Iraq as being the aggressor since 1990, with the United States responding to Iraq's failure to comply with the conditions of the ceasefire. Has there been any indications that these items will not be "given" over to Iraqis after the election of a democratic Iraqi government? Again, has there been any indications that once an elected government is in place, these functions won't be handed over to the Iraqi people/government?

I can still understand the mistake though........I remember reading about how thousands of Canadians joined the American military during the war and the hypcroicy of Trudeau's stance on the war........he sure didn't mind Canadian ammuntion factories making a mint off the war. I wonder what the numbers of Canadians look like next to Australains........we had more people in the Gulf region during the opening stages of the second Iraq war then did Australia......... Yeah, it did look good.......Jimmy Smits was on too eh? Well Duh The CBC has a left-wing bias.....whats next......smoking is bad for you I just sensed during the entire piece, a sense of "fear" on the part of the film makers.........in that they seem to understand that they won't have a monoploy on news in Canada for long. Are you going to the book burning next week IMR? If so, I'll bring some extra Hot Dogs and pop And Black Dog, have you watched Fox News yet? Or do you let others make-up your mind on any given subject?

I've no doubt in my mind that Democracy was a secondary goal for Iraq.........just the same as Nazi Germany and Japan. With the first goal being the defeat of a preceived threat to the United States. As for Iraq itself, sure, major mistakes had been made......I would never have disbanded the Republican Guard......Personally, I would have rearmed them and sent them into Iran with Coalition troops...what better way to unify the Iraqi people, then with a war against Iran(but thats another debate i guess) Why wouldn't Bush and co. want Democracy in the heart of the middle east? Democracy are tend to be stable countries right? Why would a country that depends on middle east oil, not want a stable nation in the heart of the gulf? (Followed by Iran I'm sure)

Since I think the entire article portrayed that notion, and since we have rules on coypright infringment at this site, I'll refrain from posting the entire story and just recommend anybody intrested read the entire story. So do you disregard the fact that Iraq, finacially, is light years better of than post war Japan or Germany? Is this not one check in the side of Iraqi democracy? Or what about the notion that the majority of the violince in Iraq is happening within the "Sunni Triangle" and that under 25% of the population leaves within this area? Wouldn't that suggest that the rest of Iraq is in better standing of accepting Democracy? What about the Kurds in the North? They have had multi-party democracies since shortly after the first gulf war Wouldn't that suggest that Northern Iraq is in better standing of accepting Democracy? What about the "fatwa" issued by Ayatollah Sistani that urged Sh'ia Iraqis (which make-up over 60% of Iraq) to vote? Don't any of these factors play into the equation of Iraqi democracy?

Actually, I just finished watching the program........in lieu of Alan Alda on the West Wing I don't remeber hearing anything about Fox receiving any money from the government. As for the "daily slant", I did hear that, but can you tell me (the CBC show didn't) that other American and Canadian news agencies don't do the same? Did you see the interview with the formor CBS employee, Goldmen or Goldberg something and how he described the slant perpetrated by CBS and the other mainstream media? IMHO, the best parts were infact with Ann Coulter. Coca Cola came out of my nose and my cat went flying when they went from the interview with a crying Al Franken going on about his USO tours. Then when the CBC interviewer asked Coulter about it, she said something to the effect of "Did he bring up his USO tours" and roled her eyes......... WRT her mistake on the Canadian involvement in Nam, I'd like to blame it on her age there Newf, but I'm afraid it more likely just proves the line of thinking that Canada is really a non factor and is rather forgettable.

Have you watched Fox News yet? I'd hate to think you made your opinion of the network without having seen it....... In reality, and it was dissussed on (suprise, suprise) Fox News today how other news networks (namely CNN) are now losing substanial amounts of ratings to Fox News, and to be frank, it scares them. (One rating I saw recently showed Fox News taking a larger share of the market then both CNBC, CNN and MSNBC combined) Perhaps the reasons for CBC's attack show might have been rating related perhaps? I fully admit, before I started watching FOX news, I got my new from a combanation of CNN, Global and to a lesser extent CTV(not to mention, when I can, I'd watch Don Neuman's Politcs, Your Call with Kathlen Petty and the odd passonite eye on CBC) Now aside from watching the local Global news, I've got my TV glued to Fox News........and I wouldn't be suprised if this trend is very much so taking off in the rest of Canada. I totally admit that the majority of the "News Magazine" type shows on Fox have a right-wing bias (so what though?), but the qualtiy of the actual news stories and news updates is without comparison (To what I've seen, which includes BBC) They are clear, to the point, only the facts and are devoid of the anchor's (or news editor's) opinion. Fox News is a breath of fresh air, and will force Canadian news agency's to either clean-up their acts or face the same fate as the American news networks.

How would you fix the electoral map August? Thats if it could be fixed......... I guess this trend leans towards the end of Confederation.......which as a manic Westerner, on four of the seven days of the week I'd welcome.

Have you checked out the channal yet Newf? What about the factor itself? If not, your missing out........kinda like a Crossfire, Politics, Larry King, combo, with a dash of tonight show. Yeah don't know what you're missing

And the site you provide makes no sense what-so-ever. It assumes that the reason Germany and Japan succeded with democracy, is becasue they had it really bad off..............worse than the Iraqis. You talk about drinking Kool aid And even with the factors you mentioned, how will any of those prevent democracy from taking hold in Iraq? Have not democratic nations been born out of violence?

IMR, did you watch the Factor tonight.............Bill formaly welcomed Canadian viewers to the program

I'll offer you the challange than........explain thoses differences and why thoses differences do and do not have relevance to the situation with Iraq. So bascially the difference is that Iraq is not in as bad of shape and Japan and Germany............. So why is that going to make it harder for Iraq to succed? Read the third from last paragragh from your page: So why won't democracy succed again?

So Democracies were thought good tools to hold off the threat of communism? Explain why Democracies are not good for holding off the threat of international terrorism and extreme Islam? Whats the difference between the two senarios? It seems as if your apparent hatred for the Bush adminisration is clouding your judgement......... Who's the issue of credibility with though? Does it mater? The United Nations deems the intermim Iraqi government to have credibility? Is this another issue of blind hatred? Perhaps in your eyes........but not in those of the three parties concerned.......namely the Iraqi government, the American government and the United Nations. Every country with an American base is not soverign? That list includeds Germany, Iceland, Japan, South Korea, the United Kingdom, Turkey, Italy, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar (I sure I'm missing some more) The Americans maintaned close to that number of troops in Germany for more than 50 years.......and to a lesser extent Japan and South Korea Are they not soverign? No foregein commanders can command American troops.......I beleive it's a law. As for the Iraqi forces, thats only until the election of a Iraqi government........How long did Japan and Germeny have to wait after the war ended, to regain control of their armed forces...... I think this comes in under the "Duh" section Don't most nations government personnal receive diplomatic immunity, in any country they travel? So? Where would you have built the embassy? I've never been to Baghdad, but I'd guess like most large cities, space is at a premuim.......so wouldn't it make sense to use space that wasn't critical to the cities infastruture? I'd be intrested to know, if this will also change (like the control of military) once a government is elected. And you have failed to answer why and what those differences are and how those differences are relavent in a discussion over Democracy in Iraq. Why won't Democracy work in Iraq?

Is Japan, Germany and to a lesser extenent South Korea failures since they were all Democracies born out of (American) violence? ......so if they tank was painted white it would be alright? What would make you believe that? The United Nations already supports the current, United States installed government.........why wouldn't they support a elected government? Resolution 1511 I think your suspicions are unfounded. Again, according to the United Nations, the current Iraqi government does control it's own sovereignty......I've seen no evidence to suggest the UN doesn't think the first elected Iraqi government will fail in this also...... I'm content to see the results of the election on Sunday, followed by the UN's responce. How much money did America spend on the Second world war? What would that be translated into today's dollars? Are the German and Japenese people self governing?

One more question, do you consider Afghanistain to be a succes or failure?

Why can't that argument be made against social welfare in this country? And how do you know that won't be achieved with these elections, and ensuing elections in Iraq? Can I ask what leads you to belieive this assumption you hold? So any country that holds elections with forgein observers and peacekeepers can't have a true election? Has the United Nations not helped in these elections? Has there been any real concerns raised about the potential "fairness" of these elections by the United Nations? And it's pretty easy to make judgments, that are akin to letting Iraqis fending for themsevles, when you are not under the gun......is it not? So you have evidence that suggests the future Iraqi elected government, will in fact be only a "puppet"?

Let them fend for themselves? Thats classic Liberal? Then what would you consider a success in Iraq? In your opinion, what needs to be done to consider these elections "legitimate"? No, but would you rather die free man/woman or oppressed? Define a "puppet government". The Americans have already stated, that in the likely event that a Shi'a majority will win the elections, if the new Iraqi government were to ask the Americans to leave, they would. How do any of the differences mater? The Japenese went from a ruling deity that the common man could not look at and a military run government to democracy in less then a decade.

What trap Really though, if the Americans are offering to build this "wonderful device" known as BMD and all they want in return is some political capital in the form of us being another nation that supports BMD, whats the problem? IIRC, countries that all supported America after 9/11 and took part in the war in Afghanistain. Again, IIRC, shortly after the fall of the Talaban.......it may have been one of Bin Laden's first tapes......I'll see if I can dig it up. Ahh, but do we know that for sure? 100%? ie. Invasion of Kuwait, supporting international terror, threating the destruction of Israel etc. Ahh, but you're wrong America is developing a next generation ICBM Russia is developing a next generation ICBMand possably SLBM China is developing new ICBMs and SLBM France is developing new SLBM The United Kingdom is looking at options to replace their SLBM India is developing new ICBMs Isreal is developing SLBM Pakistan is developing ICBMs North Korea and Iran both have active missile programs NUclear powers developing ICBMs So in a sense, the answer to my question, all nations with nuclear weapons are developing new ways to deploy them. Here's another intresting list, which has non-nuclear states with missile programs: Missile Proliferation Summary Where's the overstatement? Of all those above countries that are developing ICBM technology, how many would you consider friends with, neutral with or eneimies with the United States?

Do we know that Iraqi's don't want freedom or that they won't fight for it? Let's wait and see what the Iraqi voter turnout looks like on Sunday......... You speak with such finality on the mater, which forces me to ask you to explain post-war Japan......... If free elections are sucessful, why is it that you claim democracy can't become a sucess in Iraq? Whats this based on? Do you have some source that shows this to be correct? Here's a list of links of some Iraqi parties: Iraqi parties

Then what do you define a percevied failure? How can you say that "Iraq has failed" with such certainty? And can this "power" also allow you to see next weeks winning lotto numbers? I don't follow here........I tend to think after the elections, when Democracy takes hold, the violence will start to subside. Then when a proper Iraqi army is deployed, thus reducing the need for American troops, resulting in an American withdrawl, you will see the levels of violence drop even further. Can you state how it wouldn't? You seem to be grasping at straws........What type of failure in Iraq won't result in more deaths? How? And how many people are dying in that country that Bush is going liberate, from the hands of a dictator today? Nope, I'm just asking a question........whats wrong.......is your own ignorant BS that you have been spouting not making sense to yourself now?