tango

Yes they have, according to the article in the op: After a decade-long court fight, the Roman Catholic Church in St. John's has been found liable for the sexual abuse of eight altar boys in the late 1970s by Rev. James Hickey, now deceased. The Newfoundland and Labrador Supreme Court's trial division made the ruling against the Roman Catholic Episcopal Corporation of St. John's on Monday. They are not "forced". They have a choice. It's called freedom of religion. --- I just came across this, not related to this particular case but ... relevant ... speaking of free choice of Catholics ... it appears that some are speaking out ... http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/irelan...3867938494.html WHEN THE Vatican state participates in the international system, “religious freedom is endangered, women’s lives are placed at risk and public health efforts are hampered,’’ Jon O’Brien, president of the liberal Catholics for a Free Choice group, has said. ... The Vatican was the only non-member state to hold permanent observer status at the UN, he said. This allowed it “to have some state privileges . . . such as being able to speak and vote at UN conferences. No other religious body is granted this elevated status”. He added that it was represented at these meetings by the hierarchy “whose views are in no way reflective of the views of the one billion-plus Catholics the world over. And when others object to the hierarchy’s policies, the Vatican’s representatives denounce such objections as anti-Catholic or anti-religious”. He said the Vatican’s claims to statehood can change depending on the circumstances and recently it “claimed statehood to ask for diplomatic immunity from sex abuse cases in the US while denying statehood to refuse co-operation with the International Criminal Court”.

Admittedly it would be cheaper for the churches if they didn't have to pay the cost of their crimes. So what? You do the crime, you do the time. You don't want to pay lawyers? Don't fight the charges. Simple. Personally, I think it's time the churches went bankrupt, so I haven't much sympathy for today's poor parishioners who are 'paying the cost of something they didn't do' ... and turned a blind eye to in the history and practice of their church, apparently. So what? The issue is corruption of and by the organizations themselves.

That's hogwash, Mr. C. Abuse is the issue. weak ... pphhhttt! tv ... pphhhhtttt!

Riverwind, while I understand a desire to defend one's church, you then become complicit in minimizing and covering up the crimes against children, and you allow the institution to continue to be complicit in institutional sex crimes against children that are rampant throughout the church. It is the people of the Catholic church who need to be alert and accountable, need to be willing to speak out, not cover up for these ongoing crimes against children, because the church institution has shown itself incapable and continually complicit in silence. The recent public statements of the Pope to me just reinforced the complicity of the church since the Pope was sorry for "the scandal" to the church, not the damage to the children, and he didn't know the difference between a homosexual and a pedophile. How can you say you are ridding the church of 'them' when you don't even know what 'they' are? Some other thoughts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholi...Catholic_Orders IF the priests committed sexual crimes against children using their position of authority in the church as leverage to extort silence, as they did/do, then the church is liable for lack of oversight. IF the church failed to appropriately address reports of sexual crimes against children, instead covering up the crimes as they did/do, then the church is liable for complicity in the crimes. The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops commissioned a comprehensive study that found that four percent of all priests who had served in the U.S. from 1950 to 2002 faced some sort of sexual accusation.[3][4] ... The Church was widely criticized when it was discovered that some bishops knew about allegations and reassigned the accused instead of removing them, While the church in the United States claims to have addressed the issue, others maintain the only change is the church has hardened its defences while allowing abuse to continue. The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops convened a meeting in Dallas on June 12, 2002 to address the sex abuse scandal. However a Dallas Morning News article revealed nearly two-thirds of the bishops attending had themselves at one point covered for sexually abusive priests.[9 IF the crimes are widespread, occurring everywhere the church exists, then it's an institutional problem not an individual one, and the church is liable. Roman Catholic sex abuse cases by country From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia * 1 Australia o 1.1 Archdiocese of Sydney o 1.2 Archdiocese of Melbourne o 1.3 Archdiocese of Brisbane o 1.4 Archdiocese of Perth o 1.5 Archdiocese of Townsville o 1.6 Archdiocese of Ballarat o 1.7 Archdiocese of Bunbury o 1.8 Archdiocese of Wagga Wagga o 1.9 Marist Fathers of Tasmania * 2 Austria o 2.1 Archdiocese of Vienna * 3 Belgium o 3.1 Diocese of Antwerp o 3.2 Diocese of Bruges o 3.3 Diocese of Liège o 3.4 Diocese of Namur * 4 Brazil o 4.1 Diocese of Anápolis * 5 Britain o 5.1 Diocese of Arundel and Brighton o 5.2 Buckfast Abbey School * 6 Canada o 6.1 Archdiocese of St. John's * 7 Croatia o 7.1 Archdiocese of Zagreb o 7.2 Archdiocese of Rijeka * 8 Czech Republic o 8.1 Archdiocese of Olomouc * 9 France o 9.1 Archdiocese of Paris o 9.2 Archdiocese of Besançon * 10 Germany o 10.1 Archdiocese of Regensburg * 11 Ireland o 11.1 Archdiocese of Dublin o 11.2 Diocese of Ferns o 11.3 Archdiocese of Tuam * 12 Italy o 12.1 Diocese of Brixen o 12.2 Diocese of Verona * 13 Mexico o 13.1 Archdiocese of Mexico City * 14 The Netherlands o 14.1 Diocese of Den Bosch o 14.2 Diocese of Roermond o 14.3 Diocese of Rotterdam * 15 New Zealand * 16 Peru * 17 Philippines * 18 Poland o 18.1 Archdiocese of Poznan o 18.2 Diocese of Plock * 19 Slovenia o 19.1 Archdiocese of Ljubljana * 20 United States o 20.1 Archdiocese of Anchorage + 20.1.1 Diocese of Fairbanks o 20.2 Archdiocese of Boston o 20.3 Archdiocese of Chicago o 20.4 Diocese of Davenport o 20.5 Diocese of Honolulu o 20.6 Archdiocese of Los Angeles o 20.7 Archdiocese of Miami o 20.8 Diocese of Orange o 20.9 Diocese of Phoenix o 20.10 Archdiocese of Portland o 20.11 Archdiocese of San Antonio o 20.12 Diocese of San Diego o 20.13 Diocese of Spokane o 20.14 Diocese of Tucson I suggest that those who would defend the Catholic Church need to research the facts first. The Pope obviously has no serious thought, other than regretting the "scandal" is has caused the church itself. Sorry ... not impressed ... just not good enough ... not sincere ... just more cover up. What the Pope is saying is we need to do a better job of covering up. It is entirely an institutional problem, imo.

Gonna "castigate suspicious loiterers" are you? What makes a loiterer 'suspicious'?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from...ent/7843307.stm If the implication is that the IDF is helping, how is shooting children at close range "helping"?

OPP charges one of its own Posted 10 hours ago http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/ArticleDi...28652&auth= The Ontario Provincial Police has charged a member of its own force for driving a police vehicle while on duty in excess of the posted speed limit. On January 31, 2009 Brant County OPP stopped the unmarked OPP vehicle on Highway 403 for driving 165 km/hour in a posted 100 km/hour zone. The subsequent investigation found that the officer was not within the lawful execution of her duties at the time. Detective Constable Heidi Fischer was charged with driving 50 km/hour or more over the posted speed limit, contrary to Section 172 of the Highway Traffic Act. The officer's driver's licence was suspended for the required 7 days and the OPP unmarked vehicle was impounded for 7 days. Detective Constable Fischer is a four year member of the OPP posted to Provincial Operations Intelligence Bureau at General Headquarters in Orillia and will appear in Provincial Offences Court in Brantford on March 24, 2009. Well there ya go ... one law for all! Had to impound the car too!

That's an interesting perspective. It would be nice if refugees arrived all psychologically intact and able to function, but most of them have been through hells we can't even imagine. The fragile economy and infrastructure of Honduras was destroyed by hurricane Mitch in 1998. It runs on corruption, nepotism, and death squads to suppress dissension. wiki is very helpful on these things, eh? Ah yes ... where to start ... During the 1980s, the United States established a very large military presence in Honduras with the purpose of supporting the anti-Sandinista Contras fighting the Nicaraguan government, and to support the El Salvador military fighting against the FMLN guerrillas. The U.S. built the airbase known as Palmerola, near Comayagua, with a 10,000-foot (3,000 m) runway so that C-5 Galaxy cargo planes could land there, rather than at the public airport in San Pedro Sula. The U.S. also built a training base near Trujillo which primarily trained Contras and the Salvadoran military, and in conjunction with this, developed Puerto Castilla into a modern port. The United States built many airstrips near the Nicaraguan border to help move supplies to the Contra forces fighting the Sandinistas in Nicaragua. Though spared the bloody civil wars wracking its neighbors, the Honduran army quietly waged a campaign against leftists which included extra judicial killings and forced disappearances of political opponents by government-backed death squads, most notably Battalion 316.[6] In 1998, Hurricane Mitch caused such massive and widespread loss that former Honduran President Carlos Roberto Flores claimed that fifty years of progress in the country were reversed. Mitch obliterated about 70% of the crops and an estimated 70-80% of the transportation infrastructure, including nearly all bridges and secondary roads. Across the country, 33,000 houses were destroyed, an additional 50,000 damaged, some 5,000 people killed, 12,000 injured, and total loss estimated at $3 billion USD.[7] In an interview with Rodolfo Pastor Fasquelle, Minister of Sports & Culture and one of three 'super ministers' responsible for coordinating the ministries related to public services (security & economic being the other 2), published in Honduras This Week on July 31, 2006, it was related that 94% of the department budget was spent on bureaucracy and only 6% went to support activities and organizations covered by the mandate. Wages within that ministry were identified as the largest budget consumer. Since 1975, emigration from Honduras has accelerated as job-seekers and political refugees sought a better life elsewhere. Although many Hondurans have relatives in Nicaragua, Spain, Mexico, El Salvador and Canada, the majority of Hondurans living abroad are in the United States[citation needed]. The economy has continued to grow slowly but the distribution of wealth remains very polarized with average wages remaining low. Economic growth in the last few years has averaged 7% a year which has been one of the most successful growths in Latin America, but 50%, approximately 3.7 million, of the population still remain below the poverty line.[9] It is estimated that there are more than 1.2 million people who are unemployed, the rate of unemployment standing at 27.9%. And a major transit point for cocaine from South America to the US. However, their only drug crop is low grade marijuana. Interesting ... but how do you tell the 'real' refugees from the drug dealers? I don't think anyone can, when it looks pretty likely the books are cooked at that end.

Good thread! I just read Iggy's Iraq apologia, where he actually seemed to be apologizing for Bush ... hmm ... Fixed principle matters. There are some goods that cannot be traded, some lines that cannot be crossed, some people who must never be betrayed Who would they be ? hmm ... Still trying to figure him out ... Of course, I don't trust any politicians much ...

Yes, and I do believe he's started talking to himself!

For Immediate Release February 5, 2009 Time to determine the truth about Caledonia - Barrett Private Members Bill calls for inquiry into land disputes Caledonia – When the Legislature resumes mid-February government will receive official notice of MPP Toby Barrett’s proposed legislation calling for an inquiry into the now three years of land disputes that have marred the landscape of Haldimand, Brant, Brantford and Six Nations. Barrett’s, “Truth about Caledonia Act, 2009” is set to be debated March 12th. Barrett’s Private Members Bill calls for an inquiry: 1. to determine the truth with respect to allegations of political influence in the court’s administration of justice and the police enforcement of the law with respect to activities in Six Nations, Haldimand County, Brant County and the City of Brantford; 2. to determine the truth with respect to the ownership of land within the boundaries of the former Haldimand Tract; and 3. to make recommendations directed to preventing similar chaotic confrontations when dealing with future land dispute issues in the province, including recommendations with respect to ways in which we can improve dispute resolution in this area and enhance respect for the courts and the rule of law; “As Opposition we began calling for an inquiry into Caledonia two and a half years ago – this proposed legislation builds on that motion, as well as Ken Hewitt’s petition to establish an inquiry into law enforcement,” stated Barrett. “It’s time we get all sides off this three-year hamster wheel.” Barrett pointed out that the Ipperwash report described inquiries as a way to “find out what happened – to look back,” as well as to “look forward,” and “propose policy reform.” The Haldimand-Norfolk MPP underlined his support for the public nature of inquiries as stressed in the Ipperwash report: “It provides a forum for citizens and groups to participate in the resolution of issues and the development of future policies…conducted in public view and with the participation of the public.” “As the impacts of the ongoing land disputes continue unabated, the need for an inquiry grows more urgent by the day,” Barrett concluded. “Just as the Ontario Liberals previously sought answers through three private members bills - and finally government legislation - creating the Ipperwash Inquiry, so too we need answers through a Caledonia Inquiry.” -30- For more information, please contact MPP Toby Barrett at (519) 428-0446 or (905)-765-8413, 1-800-903-8629 obtained via e-mail Logged

Last update - 08:38 05/02/2009 Hamas: Draft for Gaza truce has been reached By Amos Harel and Avi Issacharoff, Haaretz Correspondents Tags: Egypt, israel news Egypt and Hamas have reached a draft agreement on a cease-fire with Israel in the Gaza Strip, a representative from the Islamist group told the Egyptian newspaper Al-Ahram on Thursday. The representative, Salah al-Bardawil, said that the draft stipulates a year-and-a-half long truce between Hamas and Israel. It also includes the opening of all border crossings for 80 percent of goods. Israel would need to clarify exactly what type of goods it would allow in, Bardawil said. Bardawil told the Egyptian newspaper that according to the draft agreement, the Rafah crossing would be closed from time to time. He also said that Israel rejected a proposal to station international observers on the Rafah border. more... http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1061764.html And more background in this article ... http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1060138.html

Jail costs us about $50,000 per person per year. Someone else suggested setting them adrift in dinghies. It can only get better from there!

Thanks Oleg and Army Guy for giving us a perspective we often lack. I watched a friend's eyes cloud over as he drifted into another world when I asked him about his service. It's an eerie thing, and you know that no matter how we try to honour and respect our soldiers, it cannot ever make up for the damage that is done to their psychological well being. Is it worth it? I really don't know. I do know that Canada should be very careful about getting caught up in the US wars of aggression for oil. I think if North Americans really understood the toll it takes on soldiers, they would find other sources of energy pretty quick!

I wish you could too! What an image! Maybe we need more school trips, so kids can report on the MP's (and MPP's cos it's no better in provincial legislatures).

"If we let them chase Democrats Abroad out of Ottawa, you're going to have more foreign press and American press than they've ever seen in this country," joked Sherman. This is the issue that will jump up to bite Harper ...

Don't get out much do you?

I wonder if there is a precedent for banning the public from Parliament Hill. My understanding is that we pay for it through our taxes and pay Harper's salary too. Where the #^%$ does he get off telling us we cannot go to the Hill? It's bizarre, and very offensive! And it is an attack on our Charter rights.

When hell freezes over! Harper is NOT going to risk his already compromised career for this, when even by MLW poll the majority of people want it left as is.

But the government isn't allowing any group gatherings on Parliament Hill that day because of security concerns. from op and ... Sherman is trying to organize a welcoming rally for Obama at Parliament Hill for his Feb. 19 visit. He obtained a permit Monday, but was told yesterday by a woman at the Department of Canadian Heritage it is being nixed because of a request by the RCMP. Keep in mind ... these are AMERICANS living in Canada. I think Harper is in hot water on this one! Security, my a$$! How many people gathered in the Washington mall for the inauguration? Harper does not want to be upstaged by Obama's popularity in Canada. He's a pouting spiteful immature man.

Mr Canada, I resent that you hide behind the name of "Canada" to spew your racist filth. Your posts are based on the worst kind of stereotypes and display your narrow field of knowledge of the real world. Please spare us the ignorant, ill-informed narrow-minded one liners, "Canada". If you have something of substance to add, fine, but these hit-and-run attacks of no substance are racist, and not acceptable in a public forum, imo.

charter.rights is correct: Since OPP banned Gary McHale from Caledonia, there have been few problems. The few people from Caledonia who still support him do not have the support of most of the townspeople, and don't seem to organize protests on their own. It's reassuring that an instigator like McHale and his retinue of white supremacists from all across Ontario can (finally!) be stopped by police. No one wants that disgusting crap in their town! In Brantford, there have been no organized protests against Six Nations, just a few idiots spewing racist filth. Many support Six Nations rights. Caledonia is a beautiful town, and could be a wonderful retirement mecca for 'boomers' with the river, trails, and pretty 'downtown' shopping strip - IF they could get over their sprawl-development obsession. It is sad that Caledonia's reputation is forever tainted by the likes of McHale and his white supremacist associates. Brantford likewise could draw a large retirement population, if they would focus on intensifying housing instead of outdated sprawl development. I note that after one aborted attempt, cancelled due to complaints, McHale has not been seen in Brantford. Brantford has responded better than Caledonia/Haldimand in some ways, but the Council is still strangely obsessed with pursuing their 'sprawl' agenda. However, perhaps this $10m lawsuit will encourage them to 'refocus'.

Local Obama fans hit roadblock over Ottawa rally February 04, 2009 Daniel Nolan The Hamilton Spectator; With files from Canadian Press (Feb 4, 2009) A group of Obama-maniacs is not being deterred by reports it won't be able to stage a rally at Parliament Hill to welcome U.S. President Barack Obama to Canada this month. They're continuing to seek permission and they may have more incentive to keep going because of a report the president's wife, Michelle Obama, is coming with her husband. "Everybody seems to believe he is bringing her and she will be visiting the Museum of Civilization," said Ken Sherman of Hamilton, who is vice-chair of the Canadian chapter of Democrats Abroad. Sherman is trying to organize a welcoming rally for Obama at Parliament Hill for his Feb. 19 visit. He obtained a permit Monday, but was told yesterday by a woman at the Department of Canadian Heritage it is being nixed because of a request by the RCMP. He said his group is going to file the permit anyway and ask for a reconsideration. Failing that, it will hold a vigil on the sidewalks in front of Parliament Hill and organize a rally at one of two nearby churches it has already approached. Canada's four federal leaders will be invited to attend and his group is talking about inviting the president. more ... http://www.thespec.com/article/506945 I think I see an international incident brewing: Americans living in Canada are not "allowed" to go to Ottawa to greet their new president? ... hmmm!!! I think this is going to be a problem for Harper!!

Really? Obama reverses Bush's ban on abortion funding abroad "I trust women to make these decisions." He said he would support civil unions between gay and lesbian couples, as well as letting individual states determine if marriage between gay and lesbian couples should be legalized. Sounds to me that he doesn't let his personal feelings blind him to the rights of others.