Moonbox

and that's really the whole idea of the Carbon Tax. It's just another big Liberal social program for the have-nots.

entire Opening Post quote deleted by moderator The Governer General is more or less an obsolete position in Canadian politics, much like the Queen is still our head of state. The GG effectively has zero choice or power in the matter.

No we don't. That dubious honor belongs to Australia, and the Americans actually emit more per capita than we do too. This is as of Nov 2007: BBC News Worst Carbon Polluters Per Capita. That link just shows the stats for generating power, but I can bring up other ones as well. We're third, which is obviously not great, but we also have one of the most geographically dispersed populations living in one of the coldest countries in the world. As far as expectations go, we SHOULD be the worst but the Americans and Australians have one-upped us despite our disadvantages. I have seen the Arctic. I see the ice shelfs melting. With that being said, the annual increases in China and India's CO2 emissions ALONE by far outpace any reductions the modern world is making thanks to the Kyoto protocol. What I'm saying here is that unless China and India play ball, what we do here literally makes 0.00001% of a difference. We only make their industry and manufacturing more competitive in comparison to ours which will just encourage them to increase their industry and CO2 emissions even more.

Hey Topaz. If you're going to say something like this back it up. Until you can actually look at it without a 100% bias (like you're doing now), and break down to us which laws have actually been broken, you're not really convincing anyone of anything. This is about as intelligent as me saying, "The Liberals were responsible for killing more babies/puppies/kittens under Jean Chretien than any other government in the last 100 years." It's easy to just make stuff up.

Yep. Harper is Darth Vader in disguise. Another four years of Conservative rule will have you shackled in chains digging for oil with your bare hands...because that's where Canada is headed with all the evil tyrannical laws Harper has passed at the House of Commons....while Dion twiddled his thumbs.... While we're on the topic of completely made up fantasies with no real rational thought behind them, I'll come up with one of my own. Here goes: One day, instead of preaching his ignorant, unsupported and completely far out political dogma, OntarioLoyalist will stop angrily pounding on his keyboard long enough to actually think about what he's typing. If we're lucky, he may even one day come around with a rational, well though-out and well-supported argument. I think it's pretty fair to say that you're not going to be convincing ANYONE of your point of view if all you're going to do is repeat yourself like a broken record and stick your fingers in your ears.

I can only shake my head at that. I attempted to provide a reasoned argument. Your concise answer was nothing less than a childish thought that the average first grader could have communicated with a crayon and could only be perceived by an adult as a smart ass remark totally devoid of any sort of wit/humour. and if could go ahead and surprise us and stretch that thought any further, you might come to grasp the idea that Canada's carbon footprint relative to the rest of the world is about as significant as a fart in the wind. I'm all for not ruining the environment. On the other hand, the clothes you're wearing right now were likely manufactured in world's worst offenders in terms of carbon emissions. For every added cost of doing business in Canada, you move yet another factory overseas to China, where there is ZERO regulation for carbon emissions.

Dual Income with No Kids.

Because if the Conservatives are going to bash Dion's plan they'd more than likely be expected to come up with an alternative plan. Saying, "We're not really worried about the environment," is less abrasive than coming up with an alternative plan that may or may not ever be implemented. There may very well be the odd fringe voter out there who cringes at the thought of Dion leading the country, but who may also care at least a LITTLE about carbon emissions. Yes...it's politics!

No, it's not. I'm not calling you a troll for disagreeing or arguing. I'm calling you a troll because you didn't even read my post before you came up with a one-line balogna response that added NOTHING to the discussion. I think this thread dissproves that. Actually, I can disprove the logic of your response such as it was presented. No environment = no people. Sure. There will, however, always be an environment, and thus no environment is not a possibility in the first place. See? Logic is fun! Now provided you're willing to read any further than that, we can also go back to the meat of my opening post and say that Canada's carbon emissions have a negligible effect on the world environment and regardless of whether or not we meet Kyoto protocol reductions or any similar standards, we will still have an 'environment' .

Read the opening post dude. Seriously.

and right there, along with most of your other posts, is pretty good evidence that you're just here to troll.

There's no secret agenda. The Conservatives can come up with as many alternative plans as they want. They're not really making the environment a central issue for their government. They're making other things the priority. Sure, maybe if everything else is all worked out they'll look into it, but the CPC constituency is not counting/caring about additional environmental initiatives right now. I may be speaking for people that don't want to be spoken for, but I don't think the average CPC voter is going to start crying about broken promises if the government doesn't implement some sort of carbon tax. As if McCain's website means anything. What he's saying is about as realistic as Hilary and Obama threatening to drop NAFTA. Campaign rhetoric. Americans love to hear their politicians talk tough about other countries. Most of them, however, don't realize that the Americans have placed their balls in our hands as far as energy goes right now, and they're not about to jeapordize that. Europe (which matters relatively little in comparison in terms of trade) will also do nothing, because their truckers are blocking roads and their freighters are blocking ports because of prohibitively high fuel costs right now. The people there aren't really any more thrilled than most Canadians are about carbon taxes.

The difference is that the NDP's plan is irrelevant and they can say whatever they want, and the Conservatives are not really making it a central point for their government. Even if re-elected, I highly doubt that the CPC will even bother to implement their own plan. The Liberals on the other hand, have basically staked their fortunes on the Green Shift and Canadian's acceptance of it. It WILL cost people money indirectly or directly, and it's a stupid thing to be worrying about right now in a sluggish world economy especially when Canada's carbon emissions are negligible compared to China or India's. Both countries, as it may happen, will not be joining the Green Shift. All it is going to do is force industry to shift production even more overseas or raise prices and there will be virtually no net reduction in carbon emissions...period. It will mean higher prices in Canada and more money wasted/lost.

and yet again you've managed to completely ignore every point that was brought up and come up with another useless insight supported by an analogy that's completely inapt. If you even read my post (which I doubt) I tried to explain that there was no benefit to the carbon tax plans that are being tabled right now. Congratulations on wasting ANOTHER post.

Let's face it. Canada's economy (despite what is happening with oil in Alberta) is struggling right now. More jobs than we can really count have been shipped off to China and Mexico etc and have been replaced in large part by minimum wage (or close to it) service jobs and now our governments are currently proposing that we further handicap Canadian industry with carbon emissions 'taxes'. As far as I'm concerned, the Green Shift is total balogna. When the Liberals first announced it, I thought it was a joke. A country like China, with 1.2 billion people, and no environmental standards to speak of, is what we should be worried about, not Canada, a country whose population is about 1/40th the size of China's. Why should we penalize our manufacturers and have them move their operations overseas where they'd likely just end up polluting more? It's about as logical in my opinion as the doctors of hundreds of years ago bleeding their patients to cure them of illness. You're hurting Canada, and you're doing basically nothing to fix the underlying problem. The BS about the west setting an example for countries like China should also be laughed at. They're not taking our example as far as intellectual property, fair wages, human rights and so on, and you i'll GUARANTEE they'll be laughing at our 'example' of environmentalism. Until the West is willing to stand up to China, India etc and make them play by the same rules we do, our environment is 100% most assuredly borked either way. Dion's Green Shift is BAD for Canada. It WILL end up costing people money indirectly (I won't explain here unless asked to because there's another thread going on about that) and I can't even begin to understand how people could support it. I don't think Stephen Harper's or Jack Layton's plans are any better for the record. I don't worry about them, however, because Layton's is irrelevant and because I highly doubt that the Conservatives are really looking to go ahead with their own plan anyways. The Conservatives are not making the environment a central point of their government. The Liberals, for whatever out-of-touch reason, are.

What you 'think' matters about as much as what I had for breakfast. I could just as easily say I 'think' that the Liberals and the NDP seek votes from the lowest common denominators in Canada and make their promises directed towards these people but then when they form the government they govern almost as far to the right as the Conservatives do. Now the difference between you and me, however, is that when i say what I 'think', I'm willing to provide a multitude of examples to support what I 'think' so as to not to appear like I'm just blowing hot air. Here's what I think/know about the Liberals and their environmental policy. Canada signed the Kyoto protocol in 1998 (under a fairly similar Liberal government with many of the same faces as MP's today) which was ratified and made law I'm pretty sure in 2002. From 2002-2006 the Liberals did virtually nothing to follow up with Kyoto and did not set or meet any benchmarks in this time. In 2006, a Conservative Government, already many years behind on Kyoto thanks to the Liberals, inherited targets that by now were nothing short of unachievable. Now, in a time where the cost of doing business for manufacturers is putting thousands upon thousands of people out of work and our economy is slowing down, Dion decides it's a good time to penalize already struggling industries even further with a carbon tax that will make a 100% negligible difference in the world environment. Hmm...... I 'THINK' that the Liberals are out to lunch right now. As for Layton, don't make me laugh. Anyone who brings him into an argument these days will get nothing but smirks from me. He can promise whatever he wants knowing he has no chance to form a government.

which is basically what everyone else does for the party of their choice. What's your point? Yes...there is a lot of partisanship going on in Canadian politics. Supporters of the Liberals and NDP do the exact same thing.

While I'm 100% against any carbon or gas taxes at this point in time, one of the policies of western governments right now that makes me want to pull my hair out is ethanol fuel. While I respect where you are coming from Blueblood (I would do the same if I was a family farmer) the fact is that ethanol fuel is a gigantic waste of money and resources for pretty much everyone everywhere. The only thing it has going for it is that it's renewable. Now for the bad: Ethanol costs more money to bring to the pumps. It is expensive to transport (it's corrossive and requires more careful transport and mixing with other gasolines). Ethanol is about 30% less fuel efficient than regular gasoline. While you cause less pollution per tank of gas with ethanol in it, the lessened fuel efficiency just means you're going to burn more gas. The reallocation of land from food crops to subsidized corn ethanol production also increases the food prices, and has already done so worldwide. The price of bread has increased unbelievably this year for this very reason. So the average taxpayer would have to ask, "Why are we subsidizing farmers just so we can pay more at the pumps and more at the grocery store?" It's literally one of the stupidest policies in recent Canadian government history, providing literally no net benefit to an average Canadian while at the same time costing him/her a crapton of money. Mark my words, corn ethanol production isn't going to last. It's one of the least efficient sources of energy we have going right now. When enough people realize that they can directly blame it for the empty holes in their wallets, the policies will be dropped. Honestly, if the Liberals made it a policy to cancel ethanol fuel subsidies, I would vote for them, despite the fact that I like nothing else about them.

What is sorely lacking in this country, however, is any sense of what 'multi-culturalism' really is. I think what most Canadians think when they hear 'multi-culturalism' is families speaking their own language at home and eating exotic food. Families and friends who listen to Indian or Japanese music or have a Jamaican wedding might be considered 'multi-cultural'. What is, unfortunately, NOT in my definition of multi-culturalism would be entire communities of ethnic peoples living completely apart from Canadian economic and legal systems, who at the same time demand the same social services as the average Canadian. If you visit certain areas of Toronto, for example, you'll find entire malls filled with stores selling pirated DvDs out in the open, with people bartering and insisting on nothing but cash payment (for obvious reasons). This would not fly in your average 'Canadian' communities, but it is allowed for some reason in our 'multi-cultural- ones. When entire communities live outside Canadian laws, share nothing of our values, don't speak a word of english (thereby excluding us from their communities and cultures), how is that really MULTI culturalism??? That's more like a slow, step by step annexation of the country.

You didn't use Nazi or Hitler in your post. You fail at Godwin's Law. It's okay though...that's not really a bad thing

Two..... Come on people someone has to bite! We're almost there!

He fought tooth and nail with the NCC to get the gag law repealed. It didn't work, the Supreme Court saw to that. Now he is no longer part of the NCC, but rather the Prime Minister of Canada. His principles would suggest he'd ban gay marriage and abortion as well, but he's not going to do that either. Why? Because it would be the end of his political career. As an expert opinion on politicians and the inner-workings of government, you have to wonder why you haven't been able to come to the simple conclusion that politicians, by their very nature, seek to extend their positions to as much as possible. I don't think any of us are under the illusion that any of our recent Prime Ministers didn't have their own best interests in mind. Is it hypocritical to hide behind election gag laws after you denounced them for years? Yes, no argument. With that being said, Harper was not the one who enacted this law in the first place. That was Chretien, and as far as I'm concerned it's COMPLETELY ethical to have the Liberals taste their own medecine for a few years after fighting to keep it in place all the way to the Supreme Court. That's poetic justice, and pretty funny to boot. If you insist on playing an unfair game, don't go crying when your opponent turns your own rules against you.

For someone so well versed in politics, you have to wonder where you come up with such a biased and unfounded statement like this. As far as the NCC and gag law issue is concerned, your declaration of hypocrisy I find somewhat amusing. Harper campaigned to have it repealed, it went to the Supreme Court and was upheld. This was when the Liberals were the ruling goverment. Chretien came up with that. Now that Harper is leading the government with the CPC, Liberals and their supporters (the Toronto Star in particular), cry like the babies they are because a law they enacted isn't being repealed. At this point in time, why WOULD Harper repeal the law? Really? Yes, I guess it's something he probably considers the right thing to do, but I'm sure there are thousands of things he thinks are the right thing to do but are probably a stupid thing to do. Why repeal a gag law that your opponents (who are completely broke now) enacted in the first place and which is currently crippling their ability to advertise and promote their cause? If I were him, I'd do nothing as well. Now that the Liberals are getting a taste of it, maybe they'll repeal this (another one of Trudeau's abominations) next time they form a government.

While I AM a supporter of Harper thus far, I can never really wrap my head around an argument like this. What the hell are you talking about with 'freedom of choice' and destroying society etc. The CPC hasn't really changed anything as far as freedoms of choice are concerned, and the Liberals didn't really do much either. What are you talking about? I'm completely opposed to the Liberal platform altogether, but your comment is so abstract it almost comes across as meaningless. Again...what are you talking about?

Biased testimonials like yours mean pretty much nothing on an online forum where nobody can verify what you're saying. You've met a lot of politicians huh? Are we talking shaking hands or really getting to know them? Did you live in the US, Germany, Australia and the UK and actually have a vested interest in the politics there? What was your experience there? Is there any possible chance that you MIGHT be exaggerating your knowledge of foreign and domestic politicians and in turn exaggerating your personal feelings of Stephen Harper? Maybe? Just maybe??