AngusThermopyle

I don't "think" I've proven anything. I know that I've proven your site is worthless as a source. Using registered pitbulls and correlating them with all media reports to draw a conclusion that is at best misleading and in truth down right duplicitous. Next you disputed the numbers of Pitbulls, once again I've shown you were dead wrong. Did you read the Esquire piece? Didn't think so. As I've said, its useless to debate this with someone who refuses to see any point but the one to which they adhere. If you wont even try to learn why even talk about it? Now as to this point you make by your logic we should just do away with all dogs as they have all been bred from the original wolf strain to display the traits they do today. Personally I prefer bigger dogs although I do love all dogs the "leash lint" varieties just aren't my thing. As such I'll continue to support these breeds, however I will add a caveat. That is that not all breeds are suitable for all people, I'll also add that not all people should be allowed to own dogs. Anyway, did any one follow the link I provided and sign the petition? This thread is about cruelty and I provided a concrete, real action that could be taken to help solve this problem. I'm willing to bet that even though it only takes a few clicks and a couple of minutes almost no one did. that alone speaks volumes. People would rather sound off than make the most minimal effort to improve things.

That's one, when I have time I'll get you more. You say based on what you see, well that isn't really the best metric now is it? As I said, I don't really wish to argue the Pitbull question with you. Its obvious to me that you have made up your mind about these dogs and no amount of proof will serve to change it. The studies you provided from the Cosmetic surgery guys and Physicians have also been thoroughly debunked, as I mentioned earlier canine experts all agree that it is impossible to identify breed by bite wounds. Fortunately there is a rising backlash against media hysteria fueling ignorance regarding this breed. Many states, counties and cities that have enacted BSL are now reversing their decision and repealing these laws as they have proven to be useless. Media is also starting to show positive stories regarding them. The tide is starting to turn as it did in the past when the same hysteria was leveled against Dobies, German Shepherds and Rotties. Any one remember the James Garner movie "They Only Kill Their Masters"? The same type of hysteria and misinformation was levelled against Dobies in the sixties and seventies. Like I said, if you wish and I have time I'll find you more sources, CDC, ASPCA etc. Reliable sources, not just some web site with flawed reasoning and an agenda to push. As an aside. You really don't see a problem with the methodology your chosen site employs? It seems as obvious as day to me and, I would imagine, any reasoning person.

Actually if you read the site linked to it doesn't provide much of anything worth noting. What jumped out at me, and I'm surprised no one else noticed it, is that it states registered dogs. It then goes on to state it culled media reports for the stats it uses. Do you not see a few glaring problems with this? If not then I'll explain it for you. First, the very vast majority of Pitbulls are not registered. Currently it is estimated that the North American population of Pitbulls far outnumbers any other breed of dogs. In America 1.2 million dogs are euthanized each year, of these approximately 1 million are Pitbulls. This is not changing and in fact is getting even worse with time. The next problem is that as soon as Pitbull is mentioned the media are all over it, not so with other breeds. After all Chocolate Lab attacks is no where near as sensational as brutal crazed Pitbull attacks. Nothing gets people worked up like a Pitbull in the news. Next comes mis-identification. Studies have shown that in a huge proportion of reported attacks the dog has been mis-identified as a Pitbull. In fact Great Dane and Old English Sheepdog crosses have been called Pitbulls by the authorities. Further to that Doctors have looked at wounds and declared they were caused by Pitbulls. Canine experts have gone on record stating that it is impossible to identify a dog by looking at bite wounds. The CDC themselves issued a damning report on Pitbulls and dog attacks, they recently formally redacted this report stating that their methodology was flawed and the report seriously flawed as a result. Their latest study and report concluded that these dogs do not pose a significantly greater risk than any other properly raised and socialized dog. This brings us to the next significant point, one that most people do not wish to articulate or even admit for that matter. The owners of the dogs that attack. In the majority of cases the owners are trash. White trash, Black trash, Hispanic trash, whatever, trash is trash regardless of colour. Attacks seldom if ever result from dogs owned by responsible owners. This is the reason laws are being enacted now to punish the owners, not just the dogs. In very many cases it is the owners fault they happened at all. It must be noted that if Pitbulls did not exist then these people would just use other dogs in this way, be they Dobies, or Shepards or Rotties. These guys would find the dogs they need to do what they want. So no, AC didn't really provide much of anything useful when looked at logically. Of course if your only source is Mass Media then it is quite compelling, but when you look beyond the sensationalism and hysteria and actually learn the truth about this breed it all falls like a house of cards. Personally I'll take the word of the CDC and ASPCA over AC's website or others of that ilk. Not to mention my own experience with this breed over many years. Anyway, we have another thread for Pitbulls, this one is for animal cruelty. Here is a link to a site that also links to a petition, I urge all of you to take a moment or two to read the information then sign the petition. It takes very little effort and will help with this issue. http://cfhs.ca/law/federal_legislation/

Not to mention that you have a much better chance of supporting the local Great White population while surfing. I love those Sharks, magnificent animals, not much fun to play with though.

This is a really difficult question. On the one hand if corruption exists then the use of any means possible to combat this corruption is an option that must be considered. On the other hand this type of action completely circumvents the rule of law and is unacceptable. Has the rule of law been circumvented in this particular incident? Honestly I don't think enough is known as of yet to make that decision. On the other hand if its another case of cops investigating cops, well we all know how that always turns out don't we.

Dogs fetching beer are cute but now back to the subject at hand, animal cruelty. I believe those concerned about pet ownership being cruel should maybe concern themselves with a real problem such as this, not some fabricated fallacy. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.891988287497621.1073742001.168127143217076&type=1 She is just one of many who are found like this and rescuers do what they can but the numbers are overwhelming. As you can see she's one of those psycho killer, snap without warning Pitbulls. The fact is, that is a myth, unfortunately due to such myths these dogs are the most abused of any type in North America. They can thank sensationalist mainstream media and misreporting of incidents along with a misinformed public for this rep.

There are such campaigns, one was levelled at Saputto recently after video surfaced of inhumane treatment of dairy cows on one of their contracted suppliers farms in BC. This consisted of both a petition and boycott action aimed at the company, it has proven to be quite effective and if necessary will be continued. In the case of China some small progress is being made. Within the country animal activists have recently managed to save over 4000 dogs from one such festival and international petitions have caused the government to ban advertising of dog meat by establishments. These are small steps but steps none the less. The problem I have with eating dogs is the same problem I have with the killing of any intelligent animal. Researchers have now discovered that the average dogs intelligence level is comparable to that of a three year old child. They have the same emotions as we do and even anticipate events. Of course any long time dog person could have told them that without the research but the research does add legitimacy to this information. This is why what the Chinese do is even more terrible. They make sure they torture and kill the dogs in front of the other dogs in order to drive their terror levels even higher. The dogs viewing this know that their turn is coming. It took researchers to determine this but the Chinese knew it all along. As I said, I have a big problem with killing any intelligent animal, Whales, Dolphins, Great Apes, Elephants, Dogs etc. You are also correct in that knowledge of such things does provide a strong incentive to become vegetarian or at the very least fight for more humane treatment of all animals. Ghandi said that the quality of a culture can be determined in the manner in which it treats its animals. By this metric Canada gets a failing grade. Our animal cruelty laws were first enacted in 1898. Since then they have essentially not been changed. Sure, we've raised the fines somewhat to keep pace with inflation but thats about it. The maximum sentence for animal cruelty in Canada is 6 months in jail and a $2000 dollar fine. Unfortunately no one ever goes to jail or pays the maximum fine for such behaviour in this country. Our laws put us one step above countries like China but pretty well equivalent to places like Mexico. Not a very good result. Of all developed Western countries we rank last in animal cruelty laws. This is not something to be proud of and I would say an eye opener for those who like to crow about what an advanced and compassionate society we have. Another undesirable effect of our almost none existent laws is the rise of Dog fighting in Canada. Our country is becoming a safe haven for Dog fighters. In Canada Dog fighting is illegal but raising and training Dogs to fight is not. Given our lax laws this makes our country a desirable location for such activities. For dog fighters a potential fine of $2000 dollars is akin to a registration fee that most likely wont even be collected. Contrast this with America where Dog fighting is a felony offense punishable by up to five years in jail and a $250,000 fine. They know the destructive effects this disgusting activity fosters. They've found that these people display strong socio/psychopathic traits and other criminal activities are always attached to these events. By making real and concerted efforts to disrupt this activity they've made major busts in the hard core drug trade and the illegal weapons trade as well as making inroads into larger organized crime organizations. This is another reason I believe its time we as a country stop ignoring animal cruelty and step up our game to match or surpass the rest of the Western world.

Actually neutering and spaying dogs is a very desirable thing to do. Other than the fact that it makes the dog far less likely to be or become aggressive is the fact that it makes the dog far less prone to be susceptible to various forms of cancer and tumours. Does anyone believe its kinder to allow a condition that will make it more probable that the animal will suffer such a disease? Add to that the fact that each day in North America thousands of dogs and cats are killed, the nice way to say it is euthanized but it is killing none the less. The toll is literally millions each year. Do you think its better to make more puppies and kittens without restraint so they can be killed later? I agree, in fact dogs will seek out the company of humans and want to be with humans. The dog human relationship is one that is quite unique in nature, no other animal has shown this desire to share the company of humans. Personally I have enjoyed this relationship all my life and cant imagine not having one of these wonderful creatures in my life. As for the whole slave thing, well that's almost correct. There is a slave relationship going on. For instance in the middle of the night in January when my little girl wakes me up and I have to take her out in the blowing snow and wait until she's done what she wants to do before I can come back inside to bed. I should mention however that some breeding is cruel. For instance the dog fighters who breed their dogs to fight and die a horrible agonizing death in the pit. The pups are doomed to this fate at birth, or, if they prove unsuitable to fight they are used as bait dogs. That's cruel. Or the Chinese practice of breeding dogs for their dog meat festivals. This is especially despicable because these people ( I use that word loosely as forum rules forbid me from calling them what they actually are) believe that if the dog dies in extreme terror and agonizing pain it makes the meat better and imparts strength to them when consumed. I could post some links to videos of these festivals but I don't think anyone wants to see images of dogs skinned alive or thrown into pots of boiling water alive. Sure, that's cruel. Instead of criticizing people who love their dogs as members of their families how about some outrage about these people who do things such as this?

Yummmm! Irish and Spanish coffee, good stuff!

Personally I do not like the whole pure bred thing, it tends to reinforce and promulgate unhealthy traits and make the breed weaker and more unhealthy as a result. The whole pet ownership is abuse argument is however a load of bull. This idea was first advanced by PETA, an organization that has been shown to be bogus and is run by a woman who is totally fruit loops. This ethical organization runs a shelter that has a kill rate of 98% and actually refuses to let people adopt dog and cats preferring to kill them instead. They believe that rather than going to a good home the dog or cat is better off dead. They were also recently found dumping the remains of these animals in dumpsters behind grocery stores. They refuse to take or answer calls relating to these incidents. Nice bunch, not cruel at all. The relationship between dogs, cats and humans is a symbiotic one. This has existed for thousands of years and a strong case can be made that the human race would not be where it is now without their contributions. As was mentioned earlier I really don't think our companions would be too happy if we dumped them off in the wild and said "be free, run wild and happy", neither would they live very long before dying a horrible miserable death. It depends on how you view them. For ourselves we view them through the lense of an intelligent loving companion. They let us know what they want and we respond appropriately to their wants. This does not mean that we just do what they want, no more so than we would with a person. It does however mean that we respect them and when appropriate accommodate them. Just as you should with another person, or for that matter another living creature. If you could ask our guys if they wanted their "freedom" rather than the life they have I'm pretty sure they'd choose what they have, just as others of them have done for thousands of years.

So tell me then, what do you think should happen? Lets see, I contact the authorities and tell them "hey guys remember Somalia? Well a bunch of people who were there had really bad attitudes and some of them could even be said to have encouraged unprofessional and even illegal actions." Then I could say " this attitude probably contributed to the scandal that occurred, you know, that one that has been fully dealt with and resolved by drastic means." Are you truly so out of touch with reality that you think anyone would give a good god damn about it? And once again I'll ask, what do you think should be done? Do you think they should track down a bunch of guys 20+ years after the fact and tell them they're going to be hammered down for their attitudes at the time? Attitudes that in large part stemmed from a breakdown in leadership and lack of oversight, the fostering of a general lack of respect for directives. Due to forum rules I'm constrained from honestly mentioning how out of touch with reality you appear to be. I suggest you think a little more in realistic terms about what you are postulating here. Actually, I have to ask. Are you a person who believes that what was done to resolve and close this episode was insufficient? Would you like to launch a witch hunt and go after everyone who was there so they could be grilled and perhaps punished severely? Even after the legal conclusion of this occurrence?

Oh yes! What a brilliant idea. The authorities would be panting and eager to hear me tell them about the attitudes displayed in a closed event that happened 24 or 25 years ago. Are you truly so naive as to believe they want to hear about some individuals encouraging reprehensible actions and behaviour? Honestly, are you really so naive as to believe that?

Yes and no. It was officially not sanctioned however such behaviour was tacitly encouraged by those in positions of the highest authority present. It is a fact that Col Labbe offered a reward of a case of champaign to the first person to kill a Somali. You may not want to believe it however your desire to not do so does not change that fact. I was there, I spent time with the Airborne before I got my ass over to the RCD. There are many more examples of such encouragement. Perhaps not so extreme but all adding to an overall atmosphere of encouraging unacceptable behaviour. If you wish I could give you many more examples. Examples that never made their way into any official account of what happened there over that period of time.

I have to agree that they were a good unit but I also have to qualify that in this case if I am to be honest. I went over there with them and I've gotta tell you it was nuts. Its almost like they went nuts as soon as they set foot on the ground. The first thing they did was round up all the sea cans they could find and build a big fortress out of them. They then posted armed guards at the entrance and did not just challenge anyone approaching but basically interrogated them. We're talking about allies here, Americans, Kiwi's, etc. This was deemed as unnecessary by every other force present who had to deal with them, as they were in a very secure area, As a result in short order no one wanted anything to do with them No other force or unit present found it necessary to build such a fortress or act this way. I myself was treated this way every time I left and tried to re-enter the fortress. This was despite the fact that I had been TD'd to them for months prior to arrival in Somalia. My big break came when I found out that the RCD boys needed someone and I managed to get my ass attached to them instead, the Airborne guys weren't sad to see me go as I "wasn't one of them". As I said, that was my big break, it got me the hell out of that madhouse. On the other hand the RCD guys were the best, extremely professional and a great bunch of guys more than willing to welcome any help they could get. The CAR may have been a fine unit but those guys they sent over there were a huge bunch of dicks and cowboys. On the other hand I agree that disbanding the Regiment was no more than a cheap political ploy and should not have happened. I It was shortly after I joined the RCD guys that most of the Airborne guys deployed to Bellatwain and Belladogle (sp?) two small villages outside of Mogadishu. That is when they totally lost it. Of course a lot of that can be attributed to the leadership of Labe. He was a true wanna be cowboy POS. It was under his encouragement that a lot of this happened. I was extremely dismayed that after the mission they promoted him. The bright side though is when all this stuff came to light they demoted him. Its only my opinion but I believe he should have been charged and stood trial for his actions however that never happened. It was a cluster f*ck from the word go, you had to be there to believe the stuff that went down. The truly tragic part is that all the Canadians there were painted with the same brush and that is just 100% unfair. The Navy guys were outstanding in the performance of their duties as were the RCD guys, but they will never get the recognition they deserve for the job they did because of the shit show the Airborne put on. Anyway, I only posted to refute the claim that Arone was roasted. He was not. Burning someone with cigarettes is not roasting them. It was bad enough without adding false information and drama to the account. I should also add that I was both horrified and disgusted when I found out what had transpired, actually we all were. This conduct was as far from professional as a Military man can get. It was a disgrace and shame visited upon all of us collectively by a relatively small amount of goons and served only to eclipse all the good we had achieved. Just look at the reaction of the civies on this forum for an accurate representation of the perception Canadians hold of Somalia and our role there. Not one of them knows a single thing about the good work that was done. All they know about is the scandal.

Just a quick note regarding the opening post. Shidane Arone was beaten to death and burned with cigarettes by one person, Matchee. He was not roasted as stated. Another person was present (forget his name at the moment. This person took pictures which were later used in this case. As I said, just a quick note of correction to an erroneous statement.

Ahhh. So progressive socialism means give me what's yours so I have more for me. Gotcha.

You're new here None so you don't realize that Cyber is just playing around with his latest posts. This is not the attitude usually displayed by him. It is a little amusing to see how over the top he is now though.

And you may not like it but myself and millions of others will continue to condemn and not forget what this piece of walking talking garbage did. So be it.

Well thanks for your permission to not forgive him, myself and millions of others wont. Sure he can make a living, he can go clean up dog shit. He shouldn't be given millions and his actions swept under the rug. But you go ahead and run the booster club for this scum bag. As for dog and cock fighting. Lets just say they are primitive, cruel barbaric practises that should be eradicated. Or do you believe that as a species we should not evolve in our understanding and compassion for other living creatures?

Actually he didn't. The cruelty charges were dropped in a plea deal, he did his time for fraud, not what he did to those dogs. Do you even know what he did? As for remorse, more bull. He has never once said he was sorry for what he did, just that he was sorry for the fraud and illegal gambling. In fact, quite recently he admitted that if he could he would fight dogs again. How's that for remorse? Yeah, he's a real effin role model for kids. Do you know anything about dog fighting? Do you know what he personally did? Are you aware of the fact that most dog fighters are considered to be sociopaths? Yup, you keep excusing sub human pieces of scum like him, good on ya. Normal people rightly condemn him and his ilk for what they do. If you look into what he did I doubt you'd be so willing to excuse him. Unless you think saying sorry (which he never did) excuses this behaviour. You know, taking dogs by their hind legs and repeatedly swinging them against walls, tree's or the ground until they die. Or drowning them by holding them upside down in a bucket of water. Or perhaps you prefer the "electric chair" you know, where he'd take an extension cord with two Alligator clips on the end of it then attach a clip to the dogs lip and the other to its tail and plug the cord in. At least the ones he shot died relatively quickly. Maybe we should talk about the Beagles he would use as bait dogs instead? Yeah he's a sweetheart. Got pinched on fraud charges so all is forgiven now. I don't think so.

Yet the scum bag Micheal Vick gets a five million dollar deal and an endorsement contract from Nike after the atrocities he committed. That POS should have been shunned permanently for his crimes.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2009/02/how_strong_is_a_chimpanzee.html Just a quick point jbg. Humans are only almost as strong as Chimps if you consider less than half as strong to be almost. By my standards that doesn't equate to almost as strong, but thats just me. Now, just my opinion but given what is known so far I'd say the cop overreacted by a huge measure. It seems that this is the order of the day now though. Everyday we hear about cops shooting people, dogs, cats, anything that appears in front of them actually. Or so it seems anyway.

Oops! Sorry. I read the post quickly while I was burning some disc's and thought you were saying the play passports were proof of them being a separate country. Sorry again for that.

Actually given that only they acknowledge these passports and no one else it would appear that they are indeed a part of Canada. Gotta love it when someone posts something that demolishes their own argument. Nice work.

So why didn't you object to a poster claiming all Israeli's are Nazi's then Michael?