weaponeer

Interesting, as the Canadians who are upset appear to be in the majority and they believe this is a mountain, not a molehill They do! Well, by your comments, you would be fine with having the military pulled today from there then eh? Because we sure as heck are over there doing more than imposing morality and not just in this instance now aren't we? Moreover, if we are NO position to tell them how to treat prisoners we hand over, although there is a signed agreement specifying how they are to be treated, then we are in NO position to tell them to how do anything at all, and as such our military should be leaving immediately. You can't have it both ways. Canadians have every right to demand and expect that ALL prisoners, that were transfered by our representatives there, be treated correctly, and we are absolutely right about it. Those who do not give a damn are the ones who have it wrong, and really need to examine their own personal reality and morality, or lack thereof. We are in Afghanistan to prevent the place from being used as a base of operations for AQ. Had the talibs handed over the AQ folks in 2001 we would not be there. Our job is to destroy AQ bases of operations. Helping the Afghans rebuild is part of that. How they form their culture, create there institutions is their call ultimatley. We can provide advice, but the Afghan gov't makes the final call. By the way, all you anti Karzi folks out there, you people who go on about his corrupt gov't, what is you alternative plan???? The talibs perhaps..... Frankly you could care less, that's easy for you, your not here looking into their eyes, your not the one who will say goodbye, real easy for you.... No, Canada is in NO position to dictate morality to anyone. We live in a morally corrupt society, but it's our corrupt society. No, we don't "torture" prisoners in our jails, we do it the other way around, we allow prisoners and criminals to torture our citizens. "Sex offender out on parole rapes kid and/or woman" I am sure we've all heard that one. Whitmore even said he'd reoffend, and we let him out anyway, yes, we Canadians are really concerned about the safty of our kids... We should not abuse prisoners in Afghanistan, but it is OK to sanction the rape of our own women & children b releasing these twits into or society. We preach morality, yet we have state sanction child murder in Canada. We call it abortion, we call it a "procedure", but it is baby murder none the less. (for the record I am not apposed to it, just call it what it really is, baby killing, not to comfortable is it). Try talking to an Afghani about morality now.... Human rights, the anti-war crowd could care less about human rights. The politics of protest, you care about human rights, rule of law, as long as you don't REALLY have to do anything about it. You can get together in Tronto or Vancouver in marches and cry about human rights, rule of law, the the UN, and speak about how morally superior you are because you don't like war, as long as you don't really have to go ENFORCE those issues. War is here to stay, it is a reality of the human experience that is not going to go away because we don't like it, no more than crime, AIDS or cancer will go away, deal with it!!!! GW Bush is evil because he invaded Iraq, we are bad for being in Afghanistan, but the same dimwits think we should sent troops to Darfour to help the people there, evn though the Sudan gov't has said repeatedly... So what do we do, send them anyway, INVADE YOU MEAN...... The number one jo of the Canadian gov't, regardless of who it is, is to defend and protect Canada. The gov't has to lead, do what is right, regardless if it is popular or not. You get your children what then NEED, not what they WANT, that's leadership..... No, the vast majority of Canadians could care less about talib prisoners, it is not coming up at the dinner table of normal people. I seriously doubt the folks back home in North ay Ontario are stting around in the bar tonight watching the hockey game upset about this. I doubt when I get home I will be "banned from the town because I was here. I read the news daily, and I am not seeing tens of thousands of people leaving work to protest in the streets.....

We are pissed off that there are folks making mountains outta mole hills. Lets again find reasons to shove our own heads in the mud yet again. No, we won't spend $$ to properly support and equip the military, but we should pay millions to bring talibs to Canada..... There is no prof other that the talibs "say so" that it ever happened. Some folks love to rush to judgment about things they know nothing about. Even the talibs said we Canadians treated them with respect. We are in a very different part of the world here, business is conducted very differently, and some people cannot stomach that. If these people were "tortured", that's too bad, but deal or no deal it will happen. Even if we send people to look into the prisons it will happen. We cannot be everwhere all the time. The "torture" the talibs complained about is nothing compared to what I have seen them do here to people, not to mention what THEY did to prisoners in their time. The current Afghan gov't is not perfect, but is miles ahead of the talib alternative. The talibs are playing to the media, getting the weak kneed people back home stirred up, looks like it worked on here. They are playing to the media, simple... Frankly, I dont think most average Canadians give a damm about talib prisoners. I doesn't come up in conversation at the dinner table back home. Canadians are in no position to impose morality on these people. We are in no position to tell them how to treat prisoners, what makes us any better. Maybe it is we that have it wrong.

The MND could be Celine Dion, she would still be in the "hot seat" as long as we have troops in Afghanistan. It will not matter which party governs Canada, as long as we are at war, MND will have to deal with big questions. Think of the poor old MND at the time of the Dieppe raid in 1942.... There has been no formal investigation into what happened, if anything. The G&M posted a story, no prof other than "the talis said so", and we jump all over ourselves to create a crisis where none exists. Even if they were beat up by the Afghan police, they lived to tell about it, which over here is progress. Canada is by no means the "moral" yardstick we should be using, we have alot to learn ourselves....

There is no need to talk to Al Qaida. But talking with the Taliban is recommended by Hamid Karzai and other various forces. Afghans are deal makers. Sometimes they hold sometimes they don't. Money often proves to be an effective tool. Money talks. Right now the operation has a problem of creating more supporters of the Taliban. The Taliban were popular at one time. People are going to back a local and not a foreigner. It is Afghanistan and things don't change much, and most likely won't. Fighting for freedom is a tabloid statement. Especially when everyone knows that the rights in Afghanistan will be something we will not be able to understand in the west. Green tea and chats occur with Canadian soldiers on a regular basis as with every other NATO force engaged with Pashtuns. Each time you kill a Pashtun, whether they deserved it or not, you get a clan to join up against you. That said, most of this you already have read in the Afghan thread. As for the prisoners, I have to wonder what Dion is thinking. Is he thinking or just spouting. Regardless, then there is Stephen Harper, with his comments in Parliment. Clearly more tabloid rah rah statements from the Prime Minister. I don't understand it. Now the media are having a field day with it, showing that everyone knows what will occur when "prisoners" are handed over to the Afghan security forces. The Taliban aren't as bad as the Nazi Germans of WW2. The Germans were treated in accordance of the Geneva Convention by Western Forces. Afghans, in their wars with the USSR and each other, don't respect these conventions. At the same time, on the news this morning, they are showing people in the wrong place at the wrong time, whom Canadian Forces rounded up and handed over to Afghanistan Authorities. These people suffered torture etc and have since been released. This one person, still liked the Canadians and realized they made a mistake in rounding him up. That is about the most positive thing I have seen. We have good people over there. I agree with everything you have said here minus one point, The Taliban aren't as bad as the Nazi Germans of WW2. Actually in some ways they are much much worse. They are very scary, now I don't know if it is the AQ influence, foreign fighters amoung them (there are many) or what it is causing it, but they are savage. The "soft talibs" can be bribed, the hard core idiots....... To say that we should pay millions to bring these "things" back to Canada is absoulutly irresponsible, it shows that Dion is not fit to govern Canada. He has no interest in the safety of Canadians, he does not take the AQ & talib threat seriously....

Standing up to criminals, putting them in jail where the belong, protecting Canadians, yes he's a real GW Bush. Whatever...... Harper is no Bush, not even close..... This says it all..... Canadian Politics Are you a Liberal, a Conservative, or a Manitoban? Here is a little test that will help you decide. The answer can be found by posing the following question: You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, an Islamic Terrorist with a huge knife comes around the corner, locks eyes with you, screams obscenities, praises Allah, raises the and charges at you. You are carrying a Glock 40 calibre, and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do? THINK CAREFULLY AND THEN SCROLL DOWN Liberal Answer: Well, that's not enough information to answer the question! Does the man look poor or oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that would inspire him to attack? Could we run away? What does my wife think? What about the kids? Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? What does the law say about this situation? Does the Glock have appropriate safety built into it? Why am I carrying a loaded gun anyway, and what kind of message does this send to society and to my children? Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me? Does he definitely want to kill me, or would he be content just to wound me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me? Should I call 9-1-1? Why is this street so deserted? We need to raise taxes, have a paint and weed day and make this happier, healthier street that would discourage such behaviour. This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends for few days and try to come to a consensus. Conservative's Answer: BANG. Manitoban's Answer: BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! Click..... (Sounds of reloading) BANG! BANG! Daughter: "Nice grouping, Daddy! Were those the Winchester Silver Tips or Hollow Points?" Son: "Can I shoot the next one!" Wife: "You ain't taking that to the Taxidermist!

A bunch of Italian or French conscripts guarding prisoners.......

We could try and get Hellyer back, but he's out looking for UFO's......

Here's alink to some good facts & figure info ref Canada in Afghanistan and the CF as a whole... http://www.sfu.ca/casr/

It makes me uneasy when I see even the Dutch not make an attempt to engage the Taliban. This was shown on CBC and CTV this week when they compared Canada's tactics and the rest of our allies. It reminds me of Dieppe when someone thought it would be great for Canada to hit the beaches of France in force to see what would happen. The Dutch army gives us pretty good artillery support and their Apache gunship helos are awesome, wish we had some. Their infantry do not go outside the wire too often, not by their choice, but by their gov't insruction. The French and Italians are a walking disaster, always have been. Even in training ex's they are more of a pain than they are worth. The main prob here is too much to do, not enough troops to do it. NATO has over 1 million soldiers, if 50K more were here we could clean this mess up within a year, no doubt at all. We could clean out the talibs, reinforce the outlying towns and villages, start reconstruct projects, train the ANA (the key to victory) and hand over the fighting to them far sooner..... Too few troops, to many restrictions, just shows the talibs NATO is not serious....

Sadly, his performance in the House left his own government scrambling. The Tories have tried the tact that the Opposition supports terrorism. The public doesn't buy it. Support for the mission depends on transparency and the belief that the Afghan government is better than what came before it. News of corruption and torture and the slide backward into oppressive behavior can't be brushed aside. O'Connor was tasked with the job of finding out about the detainees and mislead the House. The story changed so many times this week that even the government was unaware of what was happening. Quite simply it was not what a good performance for the minister of Defence no matter what anything thinks of him. When NATO has to initiate an investigation, it isn't a good thing. Being over here right now I can tell you the NATO and their credibility are non existant. NATO is doing very little here, Canada, the USA, Britian and the Aussies are doing the real work with some help from the Dutch. The locals know who is helping them and who is not, and they could care less about the handling of prisoners. That's the way things are here, and thought the rest of the world sadly. Canada is a very very sheltered" country. Most Canadians could not handle the "reality" of the real world. The fact these folks are still alive to even talk to the G&M is something. Most ANA units don't like to take prisoners. Canadians are not new to this, my grandfather fought the Waffen SS in WW2, and the Canuck did not take too many of them POW...

Please refrain from the inflammatory personal rejoinders. Greg has warned people about that. The Canadian public grows dubious about the success of the mission when it looks like our NATO allies are less than committed. They look at Pakistan and now Iran as a source for insurgency support and realize nothing is really being done to stop it. They see the unpopularity of the Karzai government and the corruption and torture. If Canada is to succeed in Afghanistan, it will need a lot more support from NATO allies and a commitment from the Afghan government to not be a mini version of the government they replaced. jdobbin, Our so called NATO allies have NEVER been committed to NATO or Afghanistan. I have worked with our "allies" for the last 19 years, they have never been there. They are not for the most part reliable even when they do show up. I can give countless examples, there heart is just not in it....

O'Connor has gotten it right for the Military. He is an excellent MND. Detainees, seems that Libs and of course NDP care more about the enemy then our own, no surprise there. At least O'Connor did not say something stupide like "lets fly all the talibs to Canada" so I can pay for their welfare etc.... He is concerned with the military, and doing a great job. That's all that matters to me....

The Islamic Republic Of Canada...... It will have a nice ring to it....

I watched a documentary once with Suzuki awhile back. He was going on about climate change and overpopulation. Too many people overcrowding the planet. Then I found out he has 5 kids........

I will be there Monday morning, looking forward to it........

I is not racist, it is reality. Islamic fundimentalists have declared war on the west for whatever perceived notions they have. My experience is that it is all about power. The radical muslims want power in their countries, currently for the most part they don't have it. Islamic countries are mostly ruled by weak democracies or kingdoms. The west, led by the United States does business with these governments, even props up these governments in some cases, in order to do business with them. Yes, some of theses governments are not the greatest, I will agree. However, they are a far cry better than the alternative, radical islamic rule. No Canadians would want radical Christians (on any other radicals) ruling Canada. What we have is not perfect, but is far better than a Theocracy. Radical muslims are far more dangerous to other muslims than to us, however, they do pose a very real danger, and anybody who cannot see that needs a reality check. They have said on numerous occassions, convert or die!! Go check out the website of the muslim brotherhood. It does not matter where you stand politically here in Canada, if you are not one of them, you must convert, or die. We need to stand up to these radicals, show some collective backbone. Not all muslims are terrorist, but most terrorist these days are muslim. It is a choice these radicals have made. I would prefer they just went away, but my wishful thinking will not rid the world of radical islam. We need to be strong, not everything has to be PC. There are some ugly truths in this world, and we need people to say and do the unpleasant things that must be said and done. It is called resolve!!! Political Correctness. "Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

Guthrie, What are you smoking and can I have some???? The nazi's were German pal, the arian super race. There were several people that joined the SS, and fought with them yes. The last defenders of Berlin in 1945 were French nazis. People from Brazil are not strpping bombs to themselves and blowing up markets, Danish people are not driving car loads of explosives onto military convoys. Buddist monks are not flyng airplanes into buildings. Your arrguments here make about as much sense as someone in 1940 saying we should not attack or resist Germany because they are not nazis, they are not gassing people. Another point, you would take your family to Yeman, Syria, and Iran on vacation, good when do you leave:) Of course you would because if anything happened to you, we would all see you on TV crying and whining about how the Canadian gov't should come and save you..... Like I said, read your history. Wise up a little. Maybe quit such ugly, bigotted and misinformed beliefs. I have a degree in histroy, so I am well versed, thanks. I have been to these countries, sounds like you have not. It's not bigotry, it's the truth, which at times is ugly. Sorry you don't have the balls to stand up against radical islam. Anyhow, this will be my last day here, I am off for 6 months in Afghanistan tonight, with a short stop over at Vimy Ridge Monday. Where the real men are......... But you would not know about that would you.... it is my experience, when someone needs to claim some advanced knowledge of a subject, as saying, "I have a degree in..." They are doing so because they cannot answer a simple argument with facts. And when someone offers such a terribly misleading claim, such as, "The nazi's were German pal, the arian super race. " -- I am confident, there is no real degree in history. No real historian would ever attempt to limit Nazism by saying it was followed only by Germans maybe you're not so, 'well versed' as you say People like you don't get it, and never will. I like a good debate amoung those that are informed on their subject. You don't qualify. There were more Canadian and American nazis than Germans, sure....... Anyhow, I am done wasting my time with you. I am leaving tonight for Belgium, then Vimy on Monday. Off to Aghanistan a few days later. I will drop in an say hello now and then if I can.... Cheers everyone..

Guthrie, What are you smoking and can I have some???? The nazi's were German pal, the arian super race. There were several people that joined the SS, and fought with them yes. The last defenders of Berlin in 1945 were French nazis. People from Brazil are not strpping bombs to themselves and blowing up markets, Danish people are not driving car loads of explosives onto military convoys. Buddist monks are not flyng airplanes into buildings. Your arrguments here make about as much sense as someone in 1940 saying we should not attack or resist Germany because they are not nazis, they are not gassing people. Another point, you would take your family to Yeman, Syria, and Iran on vacation, good when do you leave:) Of course you would because if anything happened to you, we would all see you on TV crying and whining about how the Canadian gov't should come and save you..... Like I said, read your history. Wise up a little. Maybe quit such ugly, bigotted and misinformed beliefs. I have a degree in histroy, so I am well versed, thanks. I have been to these countries, sounds like you have not. It's not bigotry, it's the truth, which at times is ugly. Sorry you don't have the balls to stand up against radical islam. Anyhow, this will be my last day here, I am off for 6 months in Afghanistan tonight, with a short stop over at Vimy Ridge Monday. Where the real men are......... But you would not know about that would you....

This is the point I was responding to, and I don't think I missed it at all. You want to engender guilt in those of us who aren't soldiers, and I refuse to be a part of that. It is self aggrandizing to say that those of use who aren't soldiers are standing back; all of us play a part, overt or subtle. It leads to the question - how much respect do you have for the average Canadian citizen, who is going about the business of being free? This is not just engendering guilt, your are correct, it is trying to engender a superiority notion of deed, by fostering first the notion of guilt. There apparently is supposed to be more respect for those in the military, than for 'regular Canadians'. Which is complete nonsense. Who in the hell do they think are paying their wages and who are providing money for all the equipment and providing the money for 150k shells instead of programs and materials? The story smacks of Jessica Lynch's story IMV, and beyond that it is a recruitment device trying to play to young hero's out there. This is what our military was supposed to be doing there and using CIDA money/connections to build infrastructure. Glad to see it is now starting!!!!!! The story also noted he was a specialist doing this, and THAT it was his first time there but he has been deployed around the world elsewhere over an 18 year period. Now one would ask, if we were supposed to be there reconstructing all this time, why weren't the "specialists" like him going in prior? When the rich wage war, it's the poor who die. ~Jean-Paul Sartre What happened, your soldier boyfriend dump you or something????

So how is it 'sanitized for political correctness'? The manual 'prepares our soldiers for counterinsurgency warfare nothing more' then what would be the logical point of identifying 'mohawk warriors'? Would there be specific tactics to deal with 'mohawk warriors' as opposed to ...say, Cree warriors? Its not sanitization; Its sensibility. Because niether the military nor the government give a shit if its Mowhawk warriors that will be on the recieving end of any counterinsurgency warfare. The military is not PC, it is just that we have to deal with some unpleasent truths that weak kneed people cannot handle. We, the military and society cave into these people, why, I have no idea.... As for the scenario you described, it could happen, hope it does not. The situation would have to become extremly drastic before the CF was ordered to retore order with all means avil. The last time we did that was in 1885 out west. I don't think the gov't/military would be too unpopular just with the folks "sorted out". I think Canadians are slowly waking up and realize, enough is enough with the crazies..... What's so crazy about the "crazies"? Are you saying if you were aboriginal you wouldn't fight for your rights? Isn't this manual just a tool so us white folks can fight for our rights? There's no difference between us and them. NO IT'S NOT... It never fails me how some people miss the point. There are no indians, muslims, jews, blacks or other religious or ethnic barriers in the military. There are ONLY, good guys and bad guys. Good guys and bad guys come in all shapes and sizes. The militarys job is to PROTECT Canadians from the bad guys regardless of their religion or skin colour. This manual is a "DRAFT" document outlining how to conduct COIN operations. It is not the slaughtrer indians manual. Indians have every right to fight "legally" for their rights, just like anyone else. They do not have the right to take up arms, and shoot police officers or anyone else.

Problem is our equip has been rotted out by years of gov't and senior military leadership neglect, training or not we could not last. Attached to US/UK units, using thier equip, we would have a go at it. That being said, if asked I would love to take a shot at Iran. These twits have it coming.....

They are a prov of Canada, no more no less. They should have the same rights and entitlments as PEI, NFLD and BC. They should have the same lang laws as the rest of Canada, with the exception that French could be the primary, but there will be english signs. They are equal to all the provs..... as for your second point, submission to the strong is how the human race has always worked.... The Romans conquered the Britons, who were conquered by Anglo saxons and eventually the Normans, would conquered the French in New rance, and so on and so on..... Welcome to the race of psychotic apes...

Depends on where it is and who I am. As a soldier in Afghanistan, I kill 'em. As a citizen in Canada, when I see this activity I report it to the authorities and let them deal with it. Youu don't. A true extremist will blend in. That's why we have police, CSIS and CSE, to find them. That's why security forces infiltate them.... Thats depend on where they are. Most likely with their own like minded kind. If you discover a "nest" of them, have the security forces take it out, that's what we have them for.... Anyone who says my mother has no right to live unless she becomes muslim and is subject to shiria law with get a 5.56mm headache from me, no prob.... Interrogation, depends again on the type of extremist. You have to get the info, we are at war... No, I believe they are hidding behind islam to control islam. They are thugs, more dangerous to moderate muslims than to us infidels... They want to be in charge and they currently are not. This pisses them off, and they are trying to overthrow their own gov't. Us pescky westerner are in the way.... Islamic extremist are far more dangerous that the others. Extremist exist in all religions, but the islamic ones have so far proven to be the worst... Not really sure..... These extremist want to be separate from us, they hate us, they attack us....... **************************************************************************** answer those questions and I'll answer any of yours (on the same topic)

Does that include AQ and talibs who minipulate it to get people to strap bombs to their bodies????

So how is it 'sanitized for political correctness'? The manual 'prepares our soldiers for counterinsurgency warfare nothing more' then what would be the logical point of identifying 'mohawk warriors'? Would there be specific tactics to deal with 'mohawk warriors' as opposed to ...say, Cree warriors? Its not sanitization; Its sensibility. Because niether the military nor the government give a shit if its Mowhawk warriors that will be on the recieving end of any counterinsurgency warfare. The military is not PC, it is just that we have to deal with some unpleasent truths that weak kneed people cannot handle. We, the military and society cave into these people, why, I have no idea.... As for the scenario you described, it could happen, hope it does not. The situation would have to become extremly drastic before the CF was ordered to retore order with all means avil. The last time we did that was in 1885 out west. I don't think the gov't/military would be too unpopular just with the folks "sorted out". I think Canadians are slowly waking up and realize, enough is enough with the crazies.....