weaponeer

Which programs would you cut and/or which taxes would you raise to be able to increase our military budget from $17 billion (as of 2004, don't know a more current number) to the amount we'd need to have a competitive military, say $100 billion (still only ~1/5 as much as the US, not including Iraq funding). Roughly, that's an increase from 1% to 6% of our GDP. Do you realistically think that anyone could sell the necessary program cuts and tax raises to the Canadian public, which is generally averse to the whole concept of having a military that does anything besides "disaster relief" and "peacekeeping"? The agreed upon number for defence spending in order to have an effective military is 2 - 2.5% GDP. It's not that much. Other countries do it, and have socialized medicine, even better medical care than we have. We do not need a $100 billion dollar defence budget, we're not going to conquor the world. We need around 30-40 billion, and it is doable without upsetting the apple cart. We are a very rich country, very rich. You cannot compare to the US, we are not in their leauge, you have to look at the middle powers such as Australia, Norway, Holland and Singapore and how they do it. We do not need 1200 fighters, we need about 120. We do not need 2000 tanks, we need about 200, we do not need 10000 armoured vehicles for the army, we need 1000 (we have 650 now, we are close) we do not need 600 navy ships, we need about 25-28 (we have 21 now). Our problem is not $$, it's how we spend what we have, not very smart. Instead of buying direct from the companies, we negotiate all these side deals to get business to Canadian companies, well intention but the cost sky rockets. We are more concerned about how much $$ from the contract is spent in Quebec, how much goes to Alberta etc... then when we buy equip we use it forever, casusing us to have to replace everything at once. Our new C17s, our first one will arrive in Canada in August. The day it lands, we need to start looking for it's replacment in 30 years. Our ships, we built 12 frigates, as soon as they were finished we should have started building the replacements for our 4 destroyers, then when they were done start building the 3 new supply ships, when they were done bring the figates in for mid-life upgrade, when they were upgraded, then bring in the destroyers you just built for refit, and so on..... instead we shut down our ship building yards as soon as we are done building ships, then realize we need them to refit our aging ships, so we have to pay to re-open the ship yard etc.... In the 1950s & 60's Canadair company built some of the best fighter planes in the world, what happened???? We F#@'d that up!! We buy stuff then forget about the need to replace it.......the answer is to buy equipment "of the shelf" (already exists) for the Americans, Germans, France etc.... just like our alllies do..... and to get Canadian industry back in the game and keep it in the game....

The NDP slight the military because they hate us, they do not respect the military, police etc..... The lib, they like the military, sort of, but they use us as a whipping boy thinking they are scoring points with the Canadian public. Libs scare Canadians, "if we buy new fighter planes we will have to close hospitals, and through little old ladies out on the streets", when they know it's not true. Canadians need to grow up, mature, stop whining about soverignty and do something about it. I have been in the CF 19 years, and have worked extensivly with the US military. They do NOT want to defend Canada, they want us to do it ourselves, properly!!

Umm? I agree Canada needs and should invest in sufficient assets to assert its sovereignty, but lets stick with facts here. Canada has roughly 32 million people. Countries that have populations "among the largest in the world" have 10-40 times more than that. As for affording to arm ourselves, it's not a matter of the wealth of the country as much as of its priorities. Canadians do not and would not support a large portion of the GDP being used on the military, due to prevalent political views and the general feeling that Canada is safe as is. Some countries that are much smaller, with smaller population and economies, can and do have substantially more powerful militaries, where it's a higher national priority. In the case of Canada, we pretty much have relied on the US to be able to protect us in case anything ever really happened where Canada would be threatened. The US protecting us still holds true, except in the case of opposition just between the US and Canada. And in that particular scenario, if the US really wanted to use military force against Canada, then no military that Canada could realistically deploy could match the US military, and we all know that. If it came to disagreement between the US and Canada, and specifically in the area of arctic sovereignty, do you really think an armed icebreaker would change anything? Either the US decides to respect Canadian claims in those regions, in which case the absence of armed icebreakers won't matter, or the US decides not to respect our claims, in which case even if we had a carrier battlegroup up there in the arctic, they wouldn't dare to use military force against a US vessel, knowing that that would be disasterous for Canada. That's the entire problem, we have been relying on others to protect us since we first became a country. First the British, then the Americans. What you are saying is that we are a vassal state, hollow, no real responsibility for ourselves. We are soverign until it costs us $$. The number 1 responsibility of the Gov't is to protect Canada, a responsibility that every gov't, tory or lib, has abdicated since 1867. Healthcare and social programs are Prov gov't responsibility, the military, defence and security is the Feds domain. The best social program the Gov't of Canada can give it's citizens is to keep them alive and free!!!!! Canada has been freeloader on defence for years. We hand over our defence to the Americans and bitch about how they handle it. Its like letting the neighbour come over and screw your wife and bitch about how he does it, it's discraceful. How can anyone be proud to be Canadian when someone else is protecting us.... Canada can afford a well equipped and trained military. If Australia can, we can, if Holland can, we can, if Norway can, we can....... People have to wake up and stop thinking small, stop thinking we are some poor down and out country. This is Canada, we are in the G8, extremely rich. Canadians have to say, this is Canada, our country, and we want to be proud that we defend it. Canadian men & women protecting Canadians....

What does any of this have to do with Afghanistan?????

I agree. I'm also a big Israel supporter (though I'm critical of their methods at times). We have the moral high ground as the civilized powers in the West because we don't resort to needless violence. As Canadians we do not border a hostile country hell bent on destoying us. We do not have a proxy army from a country that hates us shooting rockets at our towns, killing our citizens...... we are in NO position to critize the methods of Israel..... we have not walked a mile in thier shoes.......

That's what REALLY sickening. Not my post, but your statement above. so what you are saying, Mikedavid, is that the value of ones' life depends on where one was born? That our lives here in Canada are worth more than lives elsewhere? Why do you feel this way? If it comes down to my life, my childrens life, my girlfriends life over their lives, they will loose, so yes, my life isd more important, to me!!

Another reason why i hate economic and population growth. Our quality of life is constantly degraded by this. I suppose. I might have a few more 'dollars' these days but ive discovered that i don't care all that much about dollars. I need more primal pleasures. And they are harder and harder to find. Maybe they should. But this only proves my point that an economic boom does not necessarily translate into benefits and glory. Who the fuck wants to work one full time job just to survive, let alone two? The only point i care about is quality of life, and what percentage of my income has to go towards it. If the percentage stays the same but the quality goes down, it sucks. If the percentage is less and the quality goes down it still sucks. Only if the percentage goes down, and the quality goes up will i think there is a benefit. So far in Edmonton, being here before and now during this boom, the percentage has goen up and the quality has gone down. That really fucking sucks. (i measure quality not by fancy cars and nice clothes, but by things that are more real, like quality of the environemnt, quality of health care, quality of government, quality of people, quality of community, and so on... these are worse now in edmonton than they were a decade ago, and the percentage of my income spent on living was less). That is the exact direction alberta is headed. Andrew What does any of this garbage have to do with Arctic Patrol Boats???????

American Empires, US bully, please get mental help!!!!

Yes, all the benefits go to foreign companies. They fly all their own workers in, buy all their material from foreign countries and return nothing to the local economy. Very well-informed and thoughtfully presented sir. So where is the benefits? Where is the glory? A few jobs have been created for a transient work force that has made edmonton the murder capital of canada... how glorious.... It has had an enormously negative environmental impact... very glorious..... we get pathetic royalties that the klein government did nothing with anyway. Where are the benefits? If you think it is jobs think again... Hollywood employs more poeple in Alberta than the oil sands do. The entire thing is a mess and all the real benefits go straight to foreign companies. Im convinced america would treat the arctic and it people much better than Canada would. At least they do in Alaska. Andrew I see once again you have managed to hijack a topic and take it in another direction. What does the fact you cannot cope with life in Alberta have to do with Arctic Patrol Boats???

Canadian volunteer soldiers vs Russian conscripts, my $$ is on Canada...if we could operate up there, had the troops and equip.... right now Denmark has more arctic capability than we do..

http://www.sfu.ca/casr/ Here's a link with some good suggestions....

And hopefully one day we will be a real country, with our own elected Canadian head of state, and an elected senate......

What Canada needs is a third naval fleet, the arctic fleet based somewhere up north. That means another naval base somewhere north of 60, there will be fights galore over where, and who gets it. It will mean more naval ships capable of operating and fighting in the arctic. It means more naval helicopters, the 28 we are getting do not support the tiny navy we have now. It also means Search & Rescue assets. You need good SAR assets if you really want to operate there. An army base in the arctic would be a great idea, if you want to spend the $$. You could base a battle group in the north somewhere, but you would need additional helicopter and transport aircraft to move it where it is needed when it is needed. We have the arctic, we should be the world best arctic warriors. It is all about $$, I cannot foresee any Canadian govt spending the 30+ billion in defence each year for any of it....

PM Harper has been to some of the repatriations, but not all of them. He is still the PM and has other work to do, he cannot be everywhere all the time. He does call each of the families and offer his condolences (something Chretien did not do). Mr Chetien never attended a ceremony for casualties from the Balkans, although he was at the ceremony in Edmonton in 2002 for our first war dead from the friendly fire incident. The families are not left to fend for themselves, the military steps in to help. Their regiments help the families, as does the CDS and MND. Gen Hillier visits wounded troops in hospitals as does MND.

The Iraq War in 1991 was supported by many Muslim nations. After the war was over the US maintained a military presence in Saudi Arabia which was the trigger for the attacks up to and including 9/11. The UK and Spain were not threatened at all by these groups before Iraq.Many Muslims condemned the 9/11 attack and accepted the need to go into Afghanistan. All Muslims were opposed to second Iraq War. The facts are obvious to anyone who is willing to look at them. The US and western military presents in the Persian Gulf area after the first Gulf War was due to the fact that Saddam was not completely defeated militarily. A vast number of his well equipped and trained Rep Guard troops escaped, and were a threat to re-invade both Kuwait and Saudi had the western/Muslim forces left the area. This is an example of what happens when you do not finish a war. If the UN had been smart in 1990/91, had the coalition acted together, they could have removed Saddam then, and perhaps this could have all been avoided. The western military were in the Gulf long before 1990. The US Navy had been escorting oil tankers there for years. After the war the presents was still there, although increased with air power. But we are avoiding the really big question; Why do Muslims not want foreign people in Saudi, or any other Muslim country?? Why does it make them mad?? Christians do not have a holy fit if Jews or Muslims visit or live in Bethlehem, they do not blow up Muslim embassies because someone from Iran went to the Vatican. Jews do not riot in the streets because someone in China drew a silly cartoon etc...... Hindus do not kill visitors to India.....

Good post, Yes this article is right, we have neglected our military and even our general history in Canada. I know some positive moves have been made as of late, the thousands of people who returned to Vimy earlier this year. When you actually stand on the real battlefield, and see real graves it really hits home, as no monument at home can... I know some schools have asked returning Afghan vets to come a speak to the students. When your a 16 year old student talking to a 19 year old vet, well you understand.....

Too bad they could not make Jerusalem neutral, it's own entity like the Vatican, open to all the religions. As for the Golan, I am sure Israel will give them up for peace with Syria.... IMHO

Monsters In The Dark I know they are out there, I will not be ignorant anymore; pulling the blanket over my head will not keep them from coming ashore; Instead I choose to confront them as afraid as I am because if I don't stop the monsters our children can never be free. By Master Corporal Jeffrey Walsh Killed 9 Aug 2006, Kandahar Afghanistan I have stated it many times on here before, and I will state it again, if you are not here, not involved in operations you cannot know what is really going on. There are many intelligent people on this forum, knowledgeable and well intentioned, but you cannot know what is really going on, your not here. The media is a business, they are here to make $$. They report stories from their own viewpoints and agendas. The media/bloggers are not involved in the panning of operations both big and small. They only see about 20% of what is going on, the rest is speculation. Speculation that becomes facts somehow. As soldiers/airmen over here we would love to tell everyone what is really happening but we cannot. We have rules to follow, and many things we'd love to share are classified. As for historical comparisons, the Russians used brutal tactics here in Afghanistan. History forgets that the Soviet army destroyed the mujahadeen, reduced it to an annoyance with their brutal tactics. The mujahadeen begged the US for help against the Russians, and the CIA was sent over to assist them. The US gave them Stinger missiles, intel, advanced training etc....This was, IMHO, payback for what the Russians did to the US in Vietnam by aiding the VC/NVA. As for the whole bombing German comparison, RAF Bomber Command had very little effect on German industry, we lost thousands on aircrew for no gain. InWW2 and other wars many a battle has been fought for no real reason, for no real gain, even if the battle was a victory. Ex Passandale, The Somme etc... As for our allies, they will not fight. Most of them did not even put up a real fight when the Nazis invaded their countries, they surrendered and left the heavy lifting to Australia, Canada, UK and USA. There's nothing new here. If they will not fight to defend their own countries, we cannot expect them to fight for someone else's home. I can safely say we are making progress, all be it slowly. They people want us here to help, still wave when we drive by and come out to greet us. Car bombs and IEDS are a dangerous tactic for the talibs as well. For every bomb that kills local civilians, the talibs support drops. Despite the progress, Pakistan is still a major problem. Unless NATO and the USA really puts the screws to them it will continue to be a difficult grind.

What if the army comes the conclusion we are already on the slippery slope and removes the government. Good luck giving those orders to the troops. They'd laugh you out of the room....

I have never seen such a disgusting series of posts in all of my time here at MLW. For a smug little shit like that to openly insult a serving member of the CF's that is in Afghanistan now - I just can't begin to comprehend the thought process. It really makes me angry and ashamed at the same time. He sounds like he is actively angry with weaponeer because he IS a member of the CF's. Maybe Canada doesn't deserve our soldiers. In fact, I'm sure that it doesn't. I can't imagine how shit like this makes army guy and weaponeer feel. It makes me sick and ashamed. It is nothing I have not heard before. To quote Mr Trudeau, "I have been called worse things by better people". The fact is the people like peterf, andrewl have most likely never been out in the real world, seen a Somalia or Afghanistan, seen real deprivatey, and I hope they never do. They are either spoiled kids spouting of crap they heard at some university, or perhaps sociaties failures whom have turned to the NDP, to be with thier like. The left is anti-war, and anti-american, (for the most part, some exceptions) and no sane person will disagree. They do hold protests here and there, talk about human rights, womens rights, gay rights, your dogs rights etc... yet when it comes down to really doing anything they are notably absent. You see, they believe in these things, but they are not really willing to work hard, or put their lives on the line to defend this ideals. It follows the ideology of the NDP, everything is someone elses fault, corporations are to blame for everything, why should I work I am ENTITLED to this and that, the gov't should solve all my problems etc.... They never once protested in front of the Soviet embassy against Russian nukes, against their invasion of Afghanistan. They never said a word when Saddam gassed the Kurds in the 1980's. Iran says they want to "wipe Israel of the map" yet none of them form "days of action" to protest against Iran...they are full of it!! Yes, the left does undermine the situation over here. The IEDs that kill Canadian troops and others are actually aimed at the likes of andrewl and peter "full of it". They get weak, and want too run....AQ sees Canada/Canadians as weak, and if we kill enough they will run away... thanks jack! Now andrewl brought up some points about Afghan military history. Firstly the British situation of the 1840's. The Brits went into Afghanistan from India in order to add it to their empire, they were tere to conquor. The Brit were armed with muskets, swords and horses, turns out the Afghan tribesman were armed the same way. The Afghan tribesman outnumbered the golly old Brits and massacared them. Next the Soviet Invasion; it was just that an invasion to take over AFghanistan and add it to the commie empire. An invasion by GODLESS commies. This situation infuriated not only the Afghans, but the whole muslim world, which in turn dispatched thousand of "holy warriors" to repel the Soviet attack. The muslim fighters almost lost that war. In fact they were defeated, all but destroyed by the Soviet army that did not give a damm about human rights, peace or anything else. I was only after the USA gave the mujahadeen Stinger misslies, along with other advanced weapons systems and traing that the tide turned against the Russians. Had the USA stayed out of Afghanistan in the 1980's the Soviets would have crushed the mujahadeen. People like this do not bother me. They are nothing to me, as I who serve in the CF am nothing to them. As for the NDP, I stand by what I have said, however I really does not matter, they will never form the gov't in Canada. I have a ceremony to go to....... goodnight

Canada isn't in Afghanistan to defeat AQ. We aren't even in Afghanistan to defeat the Talibs. Canada's aim in Afghanistan is to help secure the Kharzai government until such time that they can secure their own selves. Secure the Kharzai gov't form whom, talibs and AQ, you made my point....

To do that Canada will have to build stuff that other countries will want to buy in order to recoup R&D and tooling costs. The CAF's just don't buy enough to make it cost effective. Sweden with companies like Bofors and Saab is one that has managed. Not PC in Canada the Good however. I agree with you 100%. The US has some really good kit, US companies that make it do have facilities in Canada. Boeing in Winnipeg & Arnprior, Westinghouse, Lockheed Matrin etc... Canadian companies do well here...

What I was putting fofrward is along the lines of what army guy mentioned, a fast in and out force. You would not need it too be that big, it's effectivness would be it's speed (rapid deployment), combat power and it's ability to strike anywhere. example; There's and AQ training camp in Somalia, near the coast. Offshore a Canadian army JTF2 team deployed on Canadian navy sub surfaces late at night, deploys the JTF2 in RIB boat to shore. JTF2 comes ashore in the dead of night, infiltrates the camp and nuetralizes it, then back to shore and extract to the sub. Same situation, except the training camp is located 100 miles or so inland. 2 newly upgraded Canadian frigates, each with 2 new Cyclone helos sits offshore. At night the helos load up a SOF team, JTF2 or CSOR, and depard towards land. Crossing the beach the helos go very low level toward their target. Out of sound range of the camp the helos land and deposit their "cargo", which moves on foot to the camp. Once in place the SOF team radios the ships, that fire off a volly of Tomahawk land attack missile (which our ships should be getting). Once the missles strike the camp taking out key targets the SOF team attacks, with air cover from the helos. Once the camp has been secured, all AQ killed or captured, they extrcat by helo back to the ship. You don't need 5000 guys for it, or a commando brigade. In fact you could take a few regular infantry men, and train them for one specific mission, execute it and return them to their regt. This is just an example. Remember, intel will find out there's a camp or major AQ leadership unit hiding somewhere, if we have time we can react with regular troops specially trained for one raid, but we do still have JTF2 & CSOR troops ready all the time, for short notice ops. Also, who says the troop have to be Canadian, perhaps a Canadian sub could deliver Norwegian commandos, or New Zealand SAS. Who says the mobile strike force has to have Canadians at all, other NATO countries could participate as well. German SOF teams, Danish, Dutch etc.... Thoughts.....

They will be sweet machines once they come on line. The new H92 Cyclone helo is quiet a machine too. One of my good friends is currently learning how to fly them. With the new helo, and it's plug and play mission capability, with new air search radars etc the frigates will be a force. Too bad they didi not have icebreaker capability, we could use them up north, oh well you cannot have everything....

They were state of the art, top of the line when they came on line in the late '80's. But times and technology has changed. They will be getting new air search radars, data link systems and SAMs to help intigrate them into the Canadian Air Defence system, and allow them to better work with and support army ops. The will be a different state of the art beast in the future.....