madmax

Best defence is a Good Offence. Didn't work for Conrad Black. The Other defence is to plead ignorance.. The CPC couldn't plead ignorance, like the Liberals Pretended to do, so, the CPC has to attack, but the strategy has put them in the spotlight...

Much of what was said in the other thread, about the CPC IN and OUT scam having little effect in Quebec is bearing out with this Crop Poll, according to the commentator. Yet Dion is not doing well in Quebec. Add these two polls together and you see why there is little movement. The next election will be fought in the trenches, but I still believe that a breakthrough will occur. But by Whom? http://communities.canada.com/montrealgaze...oll-is-out.aspx

Public Monies for a message board? Socialism...

Since most basic Economics is pure "THEORY" and no model can ever match the complexities of the market place and nations therein....you are allowed to ask such a realistic and reasonable question. When your nation cannot grow food, or sustain itself, as in many 3rd and 4th world countries, where the ability to grow food for export exceeds the ability to pay for food locally creates poverty and starvation. Many poor countries have the means to sustain themselves without foreign intervention. (I digress) However, to your point. If we export our manufacturing base, and food production. If you understand farming and realize that Farming is Industrial by nature, and food processing is after the primary act, and we arrive at a conclusion met in another thread where people suggest we let it all leave the country and move onto technological exploits.... What does one do, when food production is not available on the open market, such as WAR, Faminine, Foreign Government Intervention... in say a period of 80 years? Demand would outstripped surplus and we would be hard pressed to feed ourselves. ( Insert Apocolyptic fear music here) At this point would the market, correct itself, providing local food provided the means still existed and the fields weren't covered in Suburbia, and the markets allowed us to purchase our own locally grown food vs export it to meet the global demand. Would we choose profits over starvation as a society? Some countries are/have been victims of such policies in the past. Some countries have benefited from such activities. Ever Recall some major food crises in the past? We had a consumer food product in the 70s produced in a Latin South American Country. The wanted to make more money so they increased the yield only to see supply exceeded demand. Prices then fell, making the situation far worse then it was before. A few years after.... A shortage of produce because of (insert HORRIFIC CROP KILLING PLAGUE here) and the prices went through the ceiling. The country and farmers never made a larger killing in their life. Realizing that shortage can create record profits and wealth. (Think oil today, be it real or manufactured fear) Hydro is a product that can easily be manipulated to create record profit by creating a shortage of supply. Now think of food or water. This is truly life sustaining, more so then oil, when push comes to shove. If you need food or water, and you cannot pay for it, you will fight for it, for hunger/starvation knows no law. Economics understands markets, choice, but not survival, interference and human activity. Now, could you tell me what we can produce that is more valuable then food?

Governments collect taxes. What do you suggest they do with the money? Conservatives Collect Money.... Conservatives have been in power switching between them and the Liberals since 1867. Collecting Money.. Conservatives were in charge of Alberta since driving out the Social Credit and Conservatives Governments COLLECT MONEY..... So if you are suggesting that Governments collecting money is Stealing.... then many would agree with you. What Governments do with those COLLECTED/Stolen Funds... Is disperse them for Capital Projects, Corporate Friends, and Social Services, such as Military, Judges, Courts, Health Care, Firefighters, etc.... I still recall the scene in Gangs of New York, with the Private Firefighting Companies fighting each other and stealing from the homes while the homes burned.

Because Obviously it is NOT cheaper to produce Peaches on the farm mentioned. He would have to shift his produce across the globe to where the new processing plant will be. It is the processing plant that is closing. The Ripple effect is the local farmer has a bunch of Peach Trees with no place to process. Economic basics suggests that this is the way it should be. That the Local Farmer should then move into something else..... Of course when we are fully dependent on offshore produce, and are a nation of beggars because we cannot grown our own food, will the economic model suggest change. Economic Sense from the means of production, nonsense for an independent nation.

Welcome Back Qwerty.... Love reading your post..... Mexico has a hard enough time competing with China..... Many operations that came back from Mexico relocated in Ontario after the Mexican Experiment failed to produce quality labour quality workmanship. The technical background just wasn't well enough established. China has a strong technological base with Communist Totalitariasm and Western Capital Investment. They don't float their currency, and offer many "Perks' to locate their, as do many Asian Countries. Southern US also offers "Incentives" to relocate production. You suggest that we DO NOT compete on the Level Playing field. That we surrender our Manufacturing Base. That we no longer be an industrialized nation. Why would we not want to have the largest valued added sector of the economy in Canada? While Manufacturing was 16% of the Ontario Economy and falling rapidly, I can understand why many people do not undertand the sector or the riches it provides. It is also a ruthless and cutthroat sector, particularly the larger it gets. It is also competitive.... But that DOESN'T mean that Governments in other Countries Don't Solicite Manufacturing. THEY DO SOLICITE MANUFACTURING... IT is always a COUP to land a manufacturing plant. Only an ignorant person with no understanding would suggest surrender over competing. Why should we allow a company that is making Millions of Dollars be purchased by foreigners and then announce a shutdown to move production offshore? What good is this to a community when the industry was thriving, paying the wages of many people? No society is stagnate and things change, that is the nature of the best, but to aid and abet closures of profitable plants offshore is not a benefit to the local economy.... Wages of Engineers can be had in China for $300/Month.... China has a plentiful and educated workforce. China doesn't float its dollar. South Korea doesn't allow foreign goods to protect their large manufacturing base. Japan Doesn't allow foreign goods to protect its large manufacturing base, even though they do signifant offshore investment in Korea, China, US, Canada and Europe... We have an open door policy to pillage and take (Mergers and Aquisitions) and Bankruptcy Legisilation that aids and abetts the moving of manufacturing production, skills and technology at virtually no cost to the company. I understand peoples ignorance. Its not their field, background, and often the economics taught in school, don't cover corruption, politics, greed and ethics..... It's about the MONEY!!! Technological Exploits ? With each movement of Manufacturing you move technology. Regardless, technical skills like..... Financial, Banking, Insurance are being located offshore in India etc. Services are also being relocated.... Bell technical support is done in India. If they could find a way to pay a local technician here $30/month, I am certain it would be done. There is little to suggest that all these closures are creating Wealth? Wealth is being created in China..... Investment is being directed to China... People need employment for Sustenance.... So EXACTLY ..... What "SUPREME INTELLECT TECHNOLOGy" are you talking about?

One of the things that I have found interesting and you will see the very same trend on these forums. You start talking about the manufacturing crises in Ontario and people within one post, talk AUTOMOTIVE, which regardless of all the noise, and are taking a beating in various tier one suppliers etc, the rest of the Manufacturing Sector has been very much affected. Hersheys in Cornwall Beef Processing in Guelph Campbells You could ryhme off HUNDREDS of places in the last 4 years that have closed.... Here is a list that just one Person has associated in the closing... Dorothea Knitting Conagra Foods Grand National Wolverine Ratcliffe (Fergus) Johnson Controls #1 Apparel (Mount Forest) A.G Simpson (Count all the different Plants) Levis Strauss Rennie Inc UCAR Inc National Standard, Guelph Emerson General Seating Hussman Cunningham Pilkington (Collingwood) Irvin Aerospace Galaher Paper Mill Weyheuser Welland Pipe Atlas Steel Fantom Technologies Domtar Gates The Barn Genfast Easton Coatings Crane Am Can Westcast BlueBird Copperweld Kester Solder And there is more, infact, so many more.... These are Closures, not layoffs, and many of these plants were profitable at the time of the announcement, and many had record profits in the few short years before the closures. Others were on the brink and their time was up regardless. Many were bought up and their assetts collected to move production South or Off SHore. Regardless, McGuinty was useless on the file. Pupatello even worse. And John Tory had NO PLAN when he ran, because he was being pushed and pulled like McGuinty. If business want to relocate, they want the government to give them a handout to do it.... and many get that cash in technology funds, then shut down their production and move it and the tech.... McGuinty will hide behind "Training" which isn't bad, but it is also not a solution. Even worse is the Current Federal Government and Prospective Liberal Government in Waiting. Two visions that are so similar in appearance you can't split hairs between them. EMERSON..... :angry:

Which is why it remains below it's natural equilibrium. Every Labour Market also has a black market, where people work for less then the minimum wage. Every Labour Market has systems that allow for Contracts and formulas where it is very possible to earn less then the minimum wage. Should these systems exceed the minimum wage rate for labour demand, then there is problem with the minumum wage or possibly, the enforcement of the minimum wage. There is merit to the rest of your comments. Wage rates are only one factor. etc. What I find interesting about the heading is that it is incorrect. Wages are going down in all sectors except the public sector. Minimum Wage has failed to keep up over the past decade, so there is a converge where wages are dropping (Roughly) from average $23..$17 to $15..$10. (Ontario). Interestingly as the minimum wage increases, it puts competition among workplaces for the same labour pool. Lots of transitition and transient Labour. Keeping wage rates down and costs higher is the expansion of Temporary Employment Agencies, behaving in the manner of Payday Loan enterprises. (but that is a strengthening and relatively new development 15 years) that the majority of Labour market analysts in their ivory towers and universitys have yet to study let alone understand. So, while you may have responded to my strongly worded comments, I am not in disagreement with your analysis. Infact, you could well expand on it and make very very valid points to add to the discussion.

Isn't that the problem at the moment. How they made those inroads? Is this what is stalling them outside of Quebec?

What the BLOODY H*)) is it with Quebec and funding schemes tied to advertising? What the H*** is wrong with these Conservatives to be so STUPID!!! Have they no Shame? Why are Conservatives behaving like Liberals? Why would they do such antics, and antagonize their own base with funding schemes based on Quebec. It's always Quebec, you are right, and handled no differently then the Liberal Party. I don't think it is going to kill them in Quebec like the way the Liberal Brand has been affected. But perhaps in the West, people will wonder why "their guys" are behaving this way. Bizzare.

Not any different then Center and Leftwing Homophobes. I recall a certain MPP in our riding who was an elected Conservative and advocate of benefits to same sex spouses. Every party has supporters and Gay Activists, even if they are mad at their own party. Every party has homophobes. So you are a homophobe and credit yourself to a party with some very poor economic policy, lack of accountability and are virtually no different then a Liberal. Christian Heritage Party may be a better fit.

So you are suggesting that TWO very Socialist Countries, NORWAY and the UK, out perform dictatorships and kingdoms. Oil Prices may be higher in Norway, but the Oil Companies pay NORWAY huge sums of dollars. Venezuela as a rightwing dictatorship and right wing democracy got them no further ahead. Extreme Nationalization has proven some benefits, but time will tell..

2 People view that Dion is a stronger leader then his party. 19 Disagree with that and believe that the Party is the strongest element. What is Dion doing wrong in the minds of the 19 and where do you see his strength in those who see him as a strong leader?

Greg Weston Points out the Obvious... Harper is the weak link in the story. This is the reason the CPC are going nowhere and Harper hasn't a clue that when you are in a hole, you stop digging. http://winnipegsun.com/News/Columnists/Wes...399361-sun.html

Ones Gender doesn't determine the party they support. It is Monty Burns who wishes to drive out the Gays and Feminists. Do you agree with him or disagree. Is it the role of the CPC to drive out these people, or is this just posturing for votes from the Straight Male Community? Of course it is....

Perhaps you might want to stroll through the Current list of CPC MPs and see if you have some Gays... OH OF COURSE THERE IS!!!! Aren't there GAY CPC Cabinet Ministers? Aren't some of the most powerful women in the CPC chairs, Feminists by there very accomplishments of moving out of the kitchen.... into politics, doctors, lawyers etc. Perhaps being from the US, you don't have Gays in the Republican Party.... HAHAHAHA, because it always makes headlines, because the media loves when hypocrasy triumphs.

Raising the Minimum wage has Never, EVER increased unemployment. Since the Minimum Wage has been around for a Century, if what you were saying were true, we would all be unemployed by now. The Minimum wage is set as the minimum standard to earn a living at the bottom end of the Labour Market. We do not have any other mechanism to address this, although there are options, and the market will not address a living wage. Should we ever be in the position where the market outstrips the minimum wage, then there is proof that people are earning in excess of what is required to survive. This does occur in regions experiencing high labour costs, strong labour demand, and the need for general labour. "Others" will often quote perception over reality. Going back over time before the minimum wage, unemployment was high, wages were low.

Are you going to purge the Gays and Feminists from your party?

Been following this a bit, and IIRC Jdobbin stated Altered, but was accused of using the word falsified, which I cannot find that he used those word. What you are suggesting, is that Dobbin used the words he said he used, not the ones he was attributed to saying. But really, I think with each posting people have to wonder, how, how on earth could this thread go on for such a length, if it didn't tickle the nerve of some conservative supporters. This scheme will play itself out, and it will be determined if they were in violation. If so, SUCK IT UP. If not, DO IT AGAIN next time. But really, listen to the public and they are being put to sleep on this.... Here are typical thoughts at the coffee machine.....

I thought you were going to use this handle.... Oh I know you have ratted me out jdobbin. As I said, if I am banned I can easily get another account if I choose. i will call it Qwerty_II

HUH Kibbutzes... A very poor writer....... thinker..... to a very real problem

Flaherty is still playing his old boys network. He believes he is superior and that so are Conservatives. That they can do as they wish, because only they can be trusted with power. Flaherty will likely keep his seat and continue to damage the CPC. The CPC isn't in the same boat as the LPC with regards to corruption. What they have proven to the general public, and not to their rabid supporters, is that they are no different and not above the antics of their predecessors. This is neither an accountable or new government, but a government less tainted then the previous one, only because of the short time they have been in power. But to have so much in such a short period, proves that not only do they not do anything differently, they won't change to create the more accountable government they promised. And so each time the Liberals Falter, the CPC takes two steps backwards. How come so bad, when so fresh?

Erm, how many people earning $9. in the growing economy have $100,000 to invest in oil speculation? Maybe the elderly who have made it successfully, maybe the doctors, lawyers, and oh, an oreodontist or two. How do I make $100,000 to invest in eating Oreos? Or do I have to learn to play guitar?

It's done electronically from head office now. THe prices change automatically, some on the signs outside, just that fast. Yup competition amongst a few.