madmax

I could logically follow your two consecutive posts right up until this comment. I doubt very much that the CPC was interested in having Coulliard as a candidate for the purpose of keeping her away from her Outlaw Bikers, and Mafai connections. Regardless, I follow your logic on the ill equipped Bernier and the stronger Candidates for the position that were available. None of this address the cavalier attitude and naive Liberal idealism that the CPC government adopted to defend the incompetent actions of Bernier or their lack of concern for a person with Criminal Associations flying around on the Tax Payer Tab. Is this why the CPC flew Her around the Globe? To keep her out of Biker Bars. It is a good thing that the Government isn't using that as a defence either. They have already handled things bad enough. I think that if the government knew her background prior to the media leak, then there actions are not defendable. Bernier knew her connections. He accepted them and knowing full well who she associates with, and that these associates continue to this day, why would the government downplay his incompetence with a classified document. This isn't about just a "biker girl". This is about Quebec, and the likely pursual of OutLaw Bikers trying to find another hook into power, and a government dismissing the affair as a private matter between a squabbling couple.

ok No Argument here. I like where you are going with this. SSSHHHH. No, nor would they if GM were to open a new plant in Canada as opposed to closing one. There was Auto Production in Ontario long before Oshawa, and the Ohio, Michigan, Corridor has been seemless and many people in these corridors on the US side are facing and have faced the same fate as GM Oshawa. No plants that I know of were shut down to assist opening Canadian Auto Manufacturing, including the Oshawa operation. Infact, the Auto Pact of that era, helped increase productivity on both sides of the border through longer production runs. Also, when these plants were built and running at production levels typical for the era, the Canadian Dollar often near par or Higher then the US dollar. Come on, everyone was/is building SUVs and GM was successful in profiting off of their product. The consumer was making the choice, no different then present. Honda Workers in Alliston did not refuse to build trucks, because the market demanded such. Nissan workers did not refuse to build Titan trucks in the US. Yet, they wer caught in the same pattern, but farmed their Truck Production to Chrysler who farmed it to Mexico. I don't sit here and think, oh it's only poor GM and GM employees in Oshawa facing the corporate structure you have soundly outlined and to which I concurr on many of those points of interest. Yes, if someone would purchase them today or the market changed again. These were very popular vehicles for people to "hate". People started hating Mini Vans and soon people will "hate" Smart Cars. That said, Oshawa is capable of producing a quality product of any model or make, regardless of GMs corporate "conscious" decision close down the facility. In the meantime there is this problem that makes the move more political. Just what was Ontario Tax Payers monies handed to GM for again? Technology? To be used to build what? Answer: 1) a New Plant in another country? 2) A hybrid vehicle in another country? 3) Don't know the government just handed them some cash. Once again, the workers are made to look bad because of the actions of the Liberals. And this trend of Liberals handing out monies to large corporations who relocate shortly after has been occurring on a regular basis amongst industries throughout Ontario, and the government is too damn stupid to get it. And the taxpayer is getting shafted, and the workers too. This does no one any good. So when you speak of Hybrid Cars, we have 235 Million dollars on Ontarians TAX monies handed to GM in the past 18 months & therefore they damn well should build it here. In the meantime I have a list of companies that took the money and ran and screwed the entire staff and workers. I spent alot of time last year with Grant Thorton, BBK and many receivers. You are correct when you say that GMs North American operations were profitable. However, I would be hestitant to have bet on the profitability for the current year, and even now, I stopped into the retail dealers, and they are saying (here in southern Ontario) the lot has gone quiet at present. Still I find the Auto Sector, (Regardless of the press coverage) in far better shape then many other Industries which have closed since the announcement at GM and again, not a peep, in the media. As long as people require an Automobile they will be built.

Yes, that is true. It certainly doesn't. Nor can you make less scrap if the dies from offshore are tainted. The parts aren't sorted, but weighed in the scrap bins, if you can make anything at all. Garbage in Garbage out. That said, I think if you look at the posting of wild Bill, he highlights some of the obvious failures of GM. Both the real and the publics perception of the truth.

I think you hit the nail on the head with that post in its entirety.

How quick? When are we toast? Very insightful. I think that is an accurate assessment to date of both parties.

No, You are suggesting a TAX will save the earth from certain doom. What a load of bullocks.

The closure of the Oshawa plant is not a quality issue. The exodus of manufacturing jobs in Ontario cannot be blamed upon the Union, non union worker or the Ontario suppliers of parts, who supply to all manufacturers.. Companies are citing other reasons to leave. Not quality.

I have seen good and absymal products and supplies from Mexico. Mexico will not be able to compete even with the lower wages against the better skilled and lower wages in China. Many supplies from Mexico, had to be hand sorted in Ontario, before going to GM because they were on CS1 and CS2. Sometimes by outside contractors, sometime directly in the GM plants. Regardless I don't buy into the Mexican Fear mongering. They have their own problems, unrelated to the problems facing the people of Oshawa.

A corporation will screw workers, governments, other corporations and suppliers whenever necessary or expedient. Any corporation seeing greener pastures will pick up and leave and screw anyone associated with them, if that is the decision. I have sat at the boardroom and listened to corporations announce who they are going to F*&% over, and who they not going to screw, because they need them in their new location. I have watched the hot potato passed between Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, and CAMI, as a (Tier One/Tier Two Supplier) decided they were going to stick it to "some" of the above & the government and the Salaried Staff, while closing their most profitable facility which was located in Ontario. IF it is possible, and profitable it will be done. Corporations don't give a rats ass about the workers, infact, many of the decisions are made in foreign countries and the consideration of the workforce is not a component of the decision making. Companies buy other companies for market share, only to close down a profitable establishment with juicy contracts. The CAW workers, may pull out a Pyrrhic. You vision of corporatations is very altruistic, and somewhat remeniscint of the smaller family run companies. Business decisions are not for the faint of heart, nor guided by goodwill. The CAW workers, have nothing to lose. I talk to workers/managers from the Asian Transplants, and they are not interested in seeing the Autosector leave Ontario, it isn't good for them either. Not that they don't like seeing GM suffering, they know what is going on industrially in Ontario. All Asians manufacturers have scaled back large truck production, and GM is no different. Good luck to the CAW members they are going to need it.

I feel bad for them and all the other 200,000 people that have lost their manufacturing jobs since 2006. How so? and No.

And serial number

Like this.... None of these arguments are going to change the economic foundation that Canada used to provide, and prevent the uprooting of Companies and Plants Like GM OSHAWA to other locations. These things don't happen overnight, and GM was not forthcoming with regards to the closure of the facility in the near future.

Or what... GM will leave? Or GM will continue to obtain "training Monies" and leave? Doesn't matter which manufacturer, you can't just toss money at them and expect them to stay. Anymore then people can make concessions and expect them to stay. They should fight, and continue to highlight what is happening across the Province. The Lower paid employees in other sectors, and in support sectors have not been able to mount a voice. It is going to take some well paid auto workers to highlight the obvious. It would have been nice had they shown such concern when all the other non unionized plants started leaving, or any plant closure. But as with most people, they don't do something until it affects them. I disagree with you on every count. GM will win if they leave. Mexico will have the quality. And people who bought GM cars will continue to do so. There is only one group of losers and this will be the GM workers and their suppliers. Probably close to 10,000 to 14000 reciprocally. But 2,600 immediate. that has been a trend for 2 years. Moving out of the Province is encouraged. It is good that there is a strong resource sector out west. If this was simply about union busting, then other non union facilities wouldn't be leading the exodus. Low end, service sector and distribution is where these GM workers will find themselves. Working fulltime, on a permanent basis for a temp agency. It should be a real shock for them, and many people face this regularly. Autoworkers need to care as much about others as themselves, but for right now, they don't have the luxury. They will need to leave the Province.

All valid points. So, the first 4 points address the loss of all the non unionized, low wage, minimum wage manufacturing jobs lost over the last 4years and the first 4 points combined with the 5th point suggests the loss of the Auto assembly jobs current? Many of the lower wage manufacturing jobs left in the recent exodus from Ontario, non union and temp/agency supplied operations alike. Many of high quaility ISO, lean producion, 6 sigma and 5 S operations. Somehow people think the Chinese or the Mexicans couldn't supply CNC operators, Mechanics, Millwrights, Engineers, Toolmakers, robotics, cheap hydro, and a local market as well as an export market. That said, anyone who has worked on a line and I am closer to the , Toyota plants, knows that it is no picknick. Regardless... they make closer to $80,000 and above. Plus plus plus I do like your last point. I have watched union and non union employees and salaried staff offer/forced concessions and the company reap the benefits, only to use the extra profits to relocate. Many plant managers know the viability of their operations, (either they are or they are not viable), and realize that they will be closing down because of decisions made outside of Canada, often unrelated to the profit/loss statement.

That doesn't mean that good vehicles are not manufactured in Oshawa or any other Auto plant in Canada.

Maybe in Hamilton. But no, most politicians in general are dismissive and have been dissmissive of the issues manufacturers face. And they aren't waiting for the Canada to catch up. Purposefully. I would hate to come across as a know it all with all the solutions. But more importantly, there has been a trend since 2005 that the governments, both Liberal and Conservative and both Provincial and Liberal have choosen to address with apathy. Market forces and Government policy are not mutually exclusive. I agree with you. I figured others would be interested in posting their positions in addressing the loss of Manufacturing in Canada and government trade policy. All well and good. Are you suggesting that the Government do nothing and continue to watch the erosion of manufacturing sector. You can choose to support market forces under the current trade practices. You will be in good company. And the workers in Oshawa will join the 200,000 others

I cannot see the Liberals having a clue what to with regards to our loss of industrial capacity. The current government and previous Liberal and Mulroney governments are facilitators to Canada's de industrialization. Both parties share the same philosophy and trade policy. Emerson anyone? This is an excellent thread title. Liberal Hypocrsy (sp) I find it very ironic that the two main political parties espouse the same econonic view. One that Liberals have been preaching since 1867 and Conservatives choose to support shortly into Mulroneys 1st term. There is NOTHING the Liberals are going to do. There is NOTHING the Conservative government is going to do. They have the same answers and none of these answers will make a difference to the manufacturing sector. Which is fine by supporters of LPC and CPC, because they have wanted to support the deindustrialization of the country and allow value added operations performed outside of our country. This policy is a benefit to manufacturers looking to take advantages of the Labour, Economic, and Environmental conditions of 3rd world countries. People on these forums, support the transfer of industry and I see them argue the benefits of such actions regularly. They are Liberal and Conservatives. There is no leadership to challenge the views of these parties and any such talk by the Liberals that they have the magic pill is pure Bullocks and pandering. They are not going to do anything different, and the NAFTA is proof of that. Typical Liberal Posturing to exploit people who are paying the price for a government trade policy. But lets look at the real INSTIGATOR. (Yes I think Flaherty is a goof, but that is not where I am going, sorry LPC finger Pointers). The Japanese decided to go after the large truck market to carve another chunk away from GM,Ford and Chrysler. All manufacturers went after the lucrative truck market, and the Japanese stopped making small trucks. Unable to make money, and seeing that there prospects were going downhill, they had to make the same choices within the last year as GM. GM is Relocating to Mexico and closing Oshawa. (Take the Money and RUN) Honda is reducing truck production and increasing auto production in Alliston. Nissan has packed in their attempts to make large trucks and handed the manufacturing to Chrysler who have been able to make money on their production runs. Chrysler has decided to build these trucks in... Mexico Large trucks were produced because they make MONEY! They aren't going to be indemand and all manufacturers realize this and have changed production goals, targets and facilities. The only question the CPC/LPC might want to consider is why the plant which has won numerous awards for production, quality, and productivity and having been best in North America, regularly..... Actually, the only thing the LPC is concerned about is the CPC and the only thing the CPC is concerned about is pointing fingers at the LPC. The people in Ottawa are toast, I don't expect Dion to save them anytime soon. And if it isn't in Flaherties interest, and the CPCs. The die has already been cast. This thread is really about two parties vying for power in order to implement the same policies, and Dion isn't going to get it. And certainly not with false pandering to Future Workers about to become unemployed.

That has been the view of most people in these forums. Even those whom early on chose to back Bernier, have stepped back and clearly seen that he is a liability and she is not the innocent angel, rescued by a caring MP. There are only a few still clinging to the "private life" defence. The ones on these forums I am not to worried about. The ones in government, I am not certain why they retain the view. But all real change happens within, and if CPC readers/supporters get it (and the silent majority does) then the government should move quickly and cut Berniers umbilical cord and let him sit as an independent.

Why is it OK to let this government drift into Mulroney/Chretian corruption?

The story that keeps on giving. New revelations on Bernier's ex Report links Couillard to Hells associate as late as 2006 Elizabeth Thompson, Canwest News Service Published: Thursday, June 05, 2008 OTTAWA - New revelations that place Julie Couillard with a close associate of Hells Angels leader Maurice (Mom) Boucher mere months before she began dating former Foreign Affairs minister Maxime Bernier raise new questions about Prime Minister Stephen Harper's judgment, Bloc Quebecois MP Serge Menard said Thursday. Menard, a former Quebec justice and public security minister, said it also raises serious questions as to why the RCMP didn't warn the government that Bernier's girlfriend had past links to organized crime when her links appear to be far more recent than she had let on. Maneater

Sounds like you have a great kid with great opportunities. U of T is excellent, so there is no problem if accepted. Harvard won't be challenging on the academic side, but the social side, and the networking connections are unobtainium for the majority. Going to Harvard can change peoples lives dramatically, with all the connections and opportunities that arise. Your daughter has great choices and opportunities ahead. I am certain no matter what choices she makes, she will remain a patriotic Canadian. No matter where she continues her education and career. Best of Luck

The Harper Government doesn't have much good news to talk about. Shifting from the Bernier Debacle to the Cadman Affair suggest that the CPC needs a new deck of cards.

Visit My WebsiteThe survey by Corporate Research Associates says the NDP was the top pick of decided voters with 38 per cent (up from 37 per cent in February), followed by the Liberals with 30 per cent (up from 28 per cent) and the Conservatives with 27 per cent (down from 32 per cent). The Green party was the choice of four per cent (up from three per cent).

Yes, the Conservatives are anti smoking.

All Provinces are moving in the same direction regardless of Political affliation.