watching&waiting

I can not say that I support Rae. I have given my thoughts of why I would rather him over the others go against Harper. Many disagreed with my thoughts others agrreed. The way I see this is Harper needs to break into the seat rich Toronto and surondin areas. That should be the area that will be remembered by the people for what Rae did to them. I think that much of the safe seats in that area will come into play and Harper could get his majority right there. Othere feel that Iggy would be better to face and that maybe he will give up some seats in Quebec to CPC. I persoanlly do not want to count on the Quebec voters going CPC when it just may go Bloq instead, which is what I think will happen. Also Iggy is very much a tory blue liberal, and that might muddy the waters just enough to cost us a few seats. It is my own belief that these are the only real contenders in the leadership race, but I will probably get taken to task on that as well. I do not think any leader will get the liberal bac k into government, as it just has not been enough time for the voters to forget the Lies and corruption. That is going to take at least a decade to shake off.

There is nothing wrong with getting behind the PM and saying he did the right thing at the right time. Even the others attending the Franco summit said they were moved by Harpers speech and found him a credible person. So it is a shame that the Canadian people, will let politics cloud over what should have been common sense. Harper is and will be for many years in future a good speaker on the the rights of people. He can and will show his own brand of passion, in many of his speeches, but we then know that there will be those who then will try and pick things apart and make them mean other things. Let face it, that is the down dirty level our political members have sunk to. I find Harper refreshing as well because he tries to lift up out of the muck and smear tactics and at least give an effort to showing us that we can be civilized. Yes he has at times also took shots at his adversaries, but when he does he at least does so with some wit and class. Something I do not even think of when it comes to liberals. Harper has done a very good job considering his minority status and I believe he will continue to do so for a while yet, as I do not think the Liberals will be the ones to set the time and date of the next election, as I think it will be Harper allowing it to happen when he feels he wants to. If the liberal were to rush ahead once they have their now leader, and push an election, it would be crazy for them as their party is still too fractured that they will be seen members contradicting the leader etc over policy of almost everything. They will first need time to gel, and to get all members in-line of the party policies. That will take quite some time. Depending on who is the leader of the party after dec. the NDP will be doing much of their own manouvering as well. If any pushes an election here they will pay at the polls for it.

There was a time in the late 50's and early 60's where all the parties whether ruling party or opposition, would argue from the stances of what would be best for the Canadian people. Trudeau started with his own version of what he thought would be best, but as always happens one mans view is not that of the whole. While yes bac k in Dief's and Pearson days, there were many echanges of childish behaviour, they did get down to work when necessity called for it. From trudeau on wards it seems to me that the house has been for petty bickering and very little else. Debates should be on topic and all the snide remarks should be stricken from the record, and offenders fined. But we will not see that happen because there is not a majority who would vote for that to happen. A lot of the bickering is from pointed comments that started outside the house, and then became a cause for each to out do the other in the house. That is why many members have pointed out that the only reason something get said at all, is because in the house you can not be sued for anything you say. That should have some limits to it, but it does not and that is probably the main reason for the type of behaviour you see today.

Now as for Gerry goes hey I am not mad at him and I am not even mildly upset. I will counter his points as I see fit, and yes I did not want to go down the child molester and predator road, but I am more then familiar with what is in Ottawa from all partes and I would have never outed anyone had they not already been. What I used to counter Gerrys remarks were public knowledge. I am not gay, but in and around Ottawa there are still many MPs' who are and have not made it public, yet the people know. Gerry is always going to support the Liberals no matter what, and he is the one that choses the methods. I will do this just to show you what I mean. for one month I will ignore all of what Gerry says and will not respond no matter how his take gets. I will do this even if gerry will not agree to do the same, but I would preferr him to agree as well. That does not mean we won't post in the same threads, but it means I will not post in direct opposition to his posts. After the month goes by we will let the members decide if they think it was lived up to by all. To me this will not be hard to do. I can not talk for RB but he may well agree to this as well. Now I apologise for hijacking this thread to say this in responce to your post, and will say lets get back to topic

Go out and buy this months Frank Magazine and yiu will see the story about Graham and his boy toy living with him on Sussex Drive apt. I do know that Graham is out about his sexual preferences, but I was not so sure about his preferred age of lovers. But any way there is the place to start. And just to let you know I did not read the frank article as I already knew about his tastes etc. It is pretty well known around Ottawa.

I have said already which party is brought to mind with the words fraud, corruption Thieves etc and yes it is the liberals. But when you say child molester and sexual predator, I still think of Sven Robinson and interm party leader Graham who keeps a youthful boy lover, and I gues many more. I do not see or think of any CPC members, but maybe I am not aware of them so please explain what you mean by this. Maybe we need to look at the pages used on the hill.

Is there anyone out there in Canada, that if asked the question what political party comes to mind when we say Fraud, coruption, lieing, misuse of tax dollars and theives, wou.ld not have the answer Liberals just roll off their tongue. There is no denying this. Hell even the liberals will say that is so in the majority of cases. Their only hope is to try and deflect the fact that they are associated with all the above words, as they seem to be able to do very little as a party to shake that monkey on their backs. Just look at what they do to each other during their own leadership conventions, and it make you wonder if they even care. Betsy is right on when she wonders and surmises that fraud and liberal go hand in hand. She is only saying what the rest already know.

I must say that in my own opinion this is really just a two horse race. Rae and Iggy really are the ones who it will be all about. But I guess it will all come down to just how much the supporters of the others follow the lead of their masters. Volpe I do not think has any control over his supporters and that would be a good thing as for him to name someone to suport would not be a good thing. I would have to think that Dion would support Iggy and Kenny would support Rae, but where Dions supporters would probably follow his lead, I am not so sure of Kenny's supporters. I really do not think it will be a long weekend to elct the leader this time round. If Rae is found to be party to the fraud he is accused of then I would have to think that will be his down fall as the liberals must have learned by now that it just can not take another hit on this type of thing

I do not chase Gerry. He is a supporter of a party that I believe is corrupt and should not be given any chance of ever getting into power again. Gerry see me as the a CPC supporter probaly for the same reasons. So it is only natural that we will have disagreements. That is why we are here to debate those things. I can not help it if someone gets heated and melts down. I have made some very condtructive post to help Gerry be better at keeping his emotions in check. Those were not commands but suggestions. If you feel we target him for reasons other then opposing views, then I have to ask you where and when. You do not see me making uncivil statements or resorting to foul language to make me point. If you feel that Gerry is gettign a raw deal here, then I suggest you take that up with Greg.

Gerry I am not baiting you or even insulting you. I have said in many posts you right the right to your opiions. You just dislike I I point out when you trip on your opiions as when you put so much effort in the polls and when as polls do change, it was that wher you felt insulted. I do not make polls. I also used that as a way to show you why you should never put faith in most polls. You see that differently. I caqn accept that. But by extention you will have to accept my position as well. I have never received a warning at all. I have never been so outwardly rude or insulting to any member here to have deserved any warning. If you are anable to accept critisim or deb ate about the thinsg you post, then you should really think about not posting them. While our views probably will never be the same, I would like to think we can at least debate about their differences, in a calm unemotional manner. I am 55 years old and maybe that is where we do not see eye to eye. I have learned in life that many people will be different then me. I celebrate the differeces, where you still wnat to fight to change them. I may be wrong, but that is a quick take on this.

This guy should be given a technical knockout ruling and be done with it. He and his people are only there to give the party black eyes. It would be in most of the other parties best interests to have him stay running, but even they would say by now that it is getting just too stupid.

I do not think the CPC could care less if Rae of Iggy get the nod from the Liberals. Each have their won crosses to bear, but neither of them would be formidible as a party leader. Rae has the stench of being a party turncoat, as far as the NDP would see it and Iggy would be so far right as a liberal that he would be seen almost conservative, and that may be what would be the threat. The liberal can not field the status quo, as that would not be acceptable by the public at large. They must be seen as a new cleaner and better Liberal party to make any gains at all. To be exact this leadership convention will have dropped large numbers of voters from the Liberal seats. It seems that the liberals only have to be left to their own devices and they will eat each other until there is nothing left. It will not matter who becomes leader in December, as they all will be fractured into their little camps, and revenge will rule the party for at least the next 5-10 years. What ever the leader chosen this Dec, they will not be the leader come 2010. You only have to look at the people who are staying away from this leadership vote, to see that all the power players know and have accepted that the party is doomed. That is why the second or to some may say third string cadidates, are the only ones running. The fact that Rae has been seen to be tied to vote fraud in BC will again make the Liberals look bad to the voters. You did not see this happen from the CPC but from within the Liberal parties own people. You will see even more of this type of thing over the next month or so. If there ever was a poll I would like to see, it would be one where they ask people if they believe that the liberal have changed for the better with this leadership convention. Anyone who reads papers or listens to the news, will tell you that if anything it has shown the party is mired far dirtier then most would have said. That is not the kind of thing a party leadership convention is supposed to do now is it. To tell you the truth, I do not think Rae will be leader but as I said if he was the CPC would not be all that worried, as Rae will especially make the area arounf Toronto become up for grabs and that is where the CPC need to make in roads. Rae in Quebec would be seen far less then iggy as voters there would be in play. If the CPC can win over seats in these two ares they will have a comfortable majority. Iggy may well do ok in Quebec, But in the Toronto area he will lose some but not any where near what Rae will have. But the rest of Canada will not accept him. IMOV I would rather Rae to get the leadership, but I just do not see that happening. The liberal are hoping that the NDP voters would come enmass to the liberals if Rae is the leader, and while it is a thought, it does not send any chills down my spine.

I must laugh a bit when I see all this talk of Harper is going to have to expalain Afghanistan. First off it was the liberal who put us there, and also it was them who had us going to a battlefront position. Yes Harper agreed to extend the mission and if he is pushed to explain it, then the people of Canada will know that it was the right choice. Does anyone think that extending the mission was wrong? If so maybe you can say why you feel that way. You see we are committed to the NATO, and under that very treaty we have been called upon by Nato to supply the contingent of troops and equipment we see there today. We are doing the job asked of us, because it is in the best interests of the Nato community to make Afghanistan a self sufficient democratic country, where they can stand on their own and make the lives of their people a much better place to be. I do not think Harper expalining Afghanistan is a thing the opposition wants, because it is only that he has not really given the country the true and simple explanation of why the mission is what it is, that there is any controversey at all. Now with Rae having to explain his past and his supposed total change in his methods and thinking goes, that will require the voters to take a leap of faith and I do not think they will be able to do that. But as I said before, I am all for Rae becoming liberal leader, as he will assure the rext of us a majority CPC government.

Who knows? What is it with Conservatives and sexual predation? They're all doing it, and the Pope wants to keep it a secret. Ypou are if nothing else consistant. You seem to be easily brought to claims of sex abuse. Do you have something you would like to share with us? It seems you must hav e had some bad experience as a child or something. Maybe under the new CPC government, they will ledgislate new laws where you will finally feel safe, or is that what you are afraid of. Maybe if you explain what you mean by your statement, and then we can debate that and maybe it will quell your issues. Also you have issues with the Pope as well? Now that may take devine intervention, but explaining what you mean exactly may help there as well. That way we all can get in on what you mean in the posts you made.

BB I have to disagree that it brings about the peace quicker. That may have been the case in the wars long gone past, but todays wars are as much about media and politics as they are about fighting and deaths. As we saw this last summer the war with hexbola and Israel, ended in a cease fire and not a determining vitory of one over the other. Now both sides try to pose that they each won. Israel who was by far the unchellenged power in this, was made to look in the worlds view as a lobsided bully, because the media saw it more fit to pick up one the reactions to attacks then the attacks themselves. Hezbola then says they won because they managed to stand off the mighty Israeli army and not be forced into sunmissions. We all know that had Israel wnated to they could have easily over run all of Lebanon in a very short time. That is where Harper made his measured responce statement and was jumped upon for it quickly by the media. How dare he rain on their self made parade of big headline news with common sense. So yes he did then have his words twisted and bent, until they were forgotten. The media were the ones runnign this war and they were not about to let outside interests change the way they wanted it to run. As we can now see it was not over still yet as even though the fighting has stopped and the peace keepers are in place, the media will still use every thing they can find to keep this an active story. Hemce the words given by a party leadership hopeful that war crims were committed in Qana, by the Israeli army. Technically speaking any time a civillian is killed by the enemy, when it fires upon the opposing army is a war crime. But when put in contxt it really is nothing more then a minor offence unless you can prove this was being done on a wholesale basis. There is the rub. It is not what Ignatief said was wrong, it was just taken far out of its real context. That now has made for many more newspapers being sold and also extends the war even more so. The media will never agree to let this subject go until it has milked every last shred of news they can from it. That is where people like myself wonder if the rest of the population at large is really falling for what they read in the news. Too many times I have read about things that you know are being misused, but time and effort being in short supply I never comment on them. That is proably what has lead us to where we are now. We need to have more people question the news and the why and where it comes from. The best I can say for the newspapers of today they are mostly fiction based in a bit of truth. I really do not see real reporting or editorials. That to me is the real shame, as we are supposed to be learning how to do things better, not be stuck in a rut.

RB I do think that Gerry has been issued some warnings and even though he believes I am baiting him, I was really trying to encourage him to post in a style where he would give his answers the the questions and problems and not just take others quotes. It was not to humiliate him in any way. He has the right to support his liberal agenda, just as others will have the right to their own as well. It is just we all have to recognise that, and live by it. Sometimes when the argumments grow more heated, certain improper personalities come out, and that is where most have problems. I have at one time or another steps on the toes of others on this site with my view opposing theirs, and some times it was heated, but we never got to name calling etc, and now I may find that on some other topics these same people are inline with my own thinking, so it only goes to show you that there are many prospective views to almost any topic and there may even be several right or good answers to it. Not all are cut and dried. I will admit to looking at past posts to see what the general thinking behind somebody is before I would ever comment on his style or about him. Which was what I did here. Now he does not have to take it to heart and I would not be hurt by that, as I do not have the right to force him into anything.

I disagree with those who say it is a war crime on the Israel's part in the last war. It would only be a crime if they purposefully targeted the civillians, and that is not true plain and simple. Yes the Hezbola did hide in and around civillian targets, and that was what the Israel targeted. They can not help it that some civillians were then harmed. These same civillians should have removed themselves from the area as it would have to be a known fact that hezbola was in their midst. Just as when we dropped bombs on Germany in the WWII, we were targeting military sites, but the very nature and accuracy of the bombs meant many civillian casualties. The same can be said in this last war with Israel. While accuracy today is much better, it still is not that pinpoint that it can not go wrong. To then call these war crimes is just another abuse of the system, and it does not do the real cause of these rules anything but harm. Harper was right in the stance he took and I support him on that

Maybe we need to have this setup as a voluntary joining to the wheat board, where each would sign up for ten years, and could only sell to the board during that time. Those who do not sign with the board can then sell only to outside agents and can only join the board during the next planting season and it will be for ten years. That way the farms that think they have the ability to withstand the price rollercoaster, can do so at their own peril. I do not think it is right to make it a rule that all farmer must sale to the boards. The same would go with the milk and egg & poutry boards. That way anyone can start and do business if they choose and it would help then make market pricing more fair for the farmers as well. Here in the milk belt I see farmers dumping milk as it is beyond quota, and can not be sold. There is a problem when people in the world go starving and some farmers are destroying their products due to over production.

I can see where the 3 strikes and your in for life or until you can prove you have changed, would have some people worried about abuse. Sin ce this bill will only affect Sex offenders and violent criminals, there is really not too much to worry about. If they are mental issues or some other kind of factor in the equation it would be brought out at the hearing of the third trial offence. It would then be dealt with accordingly. I would alos have to say that we should be using the people in our prisons to do work for the community and that way ot would offset the costs of having them in jail. There are many lands that could do with clearing or cleaning, that would benefit the cities and town in our country. Along the way in this the guys may even learn a trade. For examples the public housing issue could easily addressed by making the prisoners build the homes and in doing so they would learn construction trades. So that if after the seven year period they must wait to apply for parole, they would now have some trade related experience in feild that pay enough to suppoert these guys and their families. The 3 strikes you are out, mostly means in these contexts that you are sentenced to an indefinite period of time and you can not even hope to get out before 7 years has past, and even then, it is up to you to prove that you have now changed and sought the advantages of conselling and job skills to allow you to be a productive member of society. I fully support this act, and as I said above, there should be programs where these guys can learn skills etc. to make it possible to change them.

I just do not see Rae ever being able to win an election. For one thing and it is a biggie, rae will not get the votes in and around Toronto, and that was the saving of the liberal from a complete melt down. Just about any where in Ontario and Rae will be seen as the far left person he is. It will not matter who he is now or what party he is associated with, he comes with baggage that is very large and very much poor performance. Most of Ontarios voters will still remember his premier days and that will be enough to make many of the even so called safe seats come into play. That will be a huge risk for the liberal party. Even though Rae is about as close to a big name, as one can get in the leadership race, the reasons of why he is a big name are not the kind the Liberals will want. Also Rae will not even garner measurable support in Quebec and it will be a hard sell to Quebecers, to even consider him as governing material. I am not sure of where the Atlantic provinces will stand if rae was leader of the liberals, but I do not think it would gain the liberal anything and probably only cost them seats. He may have some support in the BC and Yukon and the territories, but that would not be enough to gain power. As CPC supporter, I would have to say that Rae would make a good choice for Liberal leader. He will be open to attack on his performance as the NDP leader and his time as Ont Premier. He will not be a blank canvass, and so that baggage will all be refreshed in the hearts and minds of the voters. From the CPC stand, I would ratehr Rae over any of the others. He would be the easiest to show that the liberals are now going far left, and that will be hard for them to counter with Rae at the helm. Dion while being very hard for most english speaking adults to understand, would have problem in Qubec, but not so large that he could not overcome them. I would think though that he would be a tough sell else where. Kenny is a wild card in all of this and I am not so sure that he would be a bad thing for the liberals, and he would probably be a question mark to the CPC. Out of all the candidates so far Kenny would be the one who would best be able to show that things have changed in the Liberal party. But he would have to sell that to the voters and I am not sure he can do that.

Gerry you are the chicken little of this site. You see the negative in everything and can not ever see the positive. Of course environmentalists will disagree with the plan. They say straight out that the only thing to do is shut down all polluters now and do not let them operate again until they can reduce the emmissions to near zero no matter what the costs. Only an idiot would think that is going to happen. This plan is just as good as any that have come across the house floor, including the Kyoto plan where the emmissions increased 27% under liberl rule. Hell even the voluntary plans in the USA did better then that. So why do you not tell us what you disagree with and just what you would replace it with. Maybe then people will take you more seriously. So far I have heard alot of "I don't agree with it as it is not harsh enough" from a lot of blow hards, but nothing tangible that would make anyone change their point of view. For instance would you make mandatory 25% decrease in fuel consumption for all cars and truck made over the next decade? Would you legislate cleaner gas and diesel and allow the content of resouce grade alcohol to go from 10 to 25%? Make it mandatory for all cities to have parking on their outskirts, and only those with special passes could then drive down town while the rest have to use mass transit? How about all factories and manufacturers, must cut emmission by 10 per year for the next decade? You see it is not that hard to come up with ideas, but of course then we will give the reasons why all these ideas would kill our economy. But at least I would have contributed in a positive way to the subject.

Oh I will say biased but not bigotry. You see you show your liberalness with that statement. How many times have we seen the liberals say one thing and do another. So many we can not count them. So yes I am biased by the evidence, and only a liberal would say that also meant bigotry. You guys have got to stop seeing things as your right to do things and anyone who does not agree is a bigot. But as I said it was my opinion and yes you do not have to take it at face value. Hell I even said I was biased. But you have now shown you are closed to any ideas other then your own view, so why ask in the first place? Or are you like many of the left people I have come across, where you only seek those, who are of your same thinking. If you do not believe the things I have said about Iggy's views then you should look more at what he even has said. If you feel the liberals are not a fractured party, then why are the choice of leaders so pathetic. Where are the big guns from the party and why are they so silent? If you can not make arguments on the things I have said then yes by all means say I am a biased bigot as you have done, because to address what I said would mean you must have things to refute them.

The Wheat Board had its uses and for many people they will remember when it did make the price of bread jump here in Canada, and the farmers were happy with that. But like most things like this the pendulum swings both ways and yes when it swing to lower prices, then the farmers wonder at the reason they are forced to sell to the wheat bord when they can get higher prices across the border. China's diet has started to change a bit from rice based to a more wheat based, and will in time push prices back up. Canada seemes to have huge stockpiles of grain just waiting for buyers, but the purpose of being able to hang on for higher prices, is no longer a feasible thing. It is a shame that the family farm is no longer able to support themselves, but the factory farms have been better able to make do with margins so low that only the volumes of the large operation can make it today. I live in a farming area in the east. Here the maker of the money is milk farming, and we have quotas that must be bought and sold to be able to do this withinthe law. Now those family farms who are doing good are those who invested in quotas that were large and farm 1000 acres or more to sustain their herd costs and some corn crop as well. This is not a hard way of life but more of a long days in summer and less so in winter. Many have done very well, but the small guy getting into this will not be able to do so with $200,000.00 and a willingness to work. The factory farms are mult-million dollar investments and they do set the margins because they can live and run with in tigher controls. The small guy could not buy a 1000 acre farm for under $1,000,000.00, and then he will need equipment and silo's for storage etc and that will be at least another $500,000.00. Then he would need to buy some milk quota on top of all that. No where else in this country would you get such a low return on such a hih investment. There should be laws where starting farmers are given mild quotas and it woul be gauged to the ammount of land they have. The huge quotas held by the factory farms should be decreased to equall the amount of land they have as well. Then maybe there would be a chance. I would imagine it would be the same out west but for grains. There should be quotas that are land based and anythign they grow over that they can sell abroad. That way it would even it a bit, but it would not by any means make it a sure bet. We have screwed up our countries marketing ability with government involvment, and we will never be able to correct that. There was just too much interference back then and we now have got the system we never wanted. Only thing is to try again this time abd be smarter in what we do.

Well since you asked I will surmise some of the things that are making him a top candidate. The people of Canada have spend 13 years of middle left liberal rule, and it has costs them dearly in terms of faith in our government, to be able to make choices that are within the wants and needs of the people. It was pretty eveident during thta time that there was a fragmented right in the country, and so it gave very large populations of voters little choice to show their real positions. Now that people have seen the right as a more unified force and more then capable of governing in a way closer to the views of the larger population. They have taken the step to the right and from what you see now it seems that they are very favourable to this change. This means that the liberal are now the fragmented party and the left is still yet not through with breaking the party even further. There needs to be a huge change in party politics and it needs to have as wide a spectrum of all these( can I say disposable) candidates, to show the gauge of where the party needs to if in future it will survive. If you look rally at the top 3 candidates you will see Rae that most will equate to the far left, you will see Dion, who really is just the contination of the Chretien style, and Iggy is more to the righ of all of them, with some views more PC then Liberal. The fourth leader Kenny, well I would have to say fits somewhere in between Iggy and Dion, but not with a real force so far. So with the times leaning to the right of center by the people at large, it shows then that Iggy would be best suited for that idea. I do not think the liberals really believe that they stand even the remote chance of regaining power for quite some time, and that is why the true players that one would have thought would have run for leader, have all bowed out of the running and most are keeping their heads down and mouths closed in this battle. The next election will be the one that shows the party if they have made the right moves. It is not as if they expect to win as I believe they know that will not happen, but it will show the party where the wedges are so they can make proper use of these at a later time and date. You must remember this is the liberal party we are talking about here and they never mean what the words really say, and they have been honed to only gain power from behind if they can, so they never will get caught. I hope that helps. Also yes it is my own view of this and as you cna see I am not a liberal by any means.