watching&waiting

GH Just when was the accountability act past? How can one break a law when the law is not past? So where do you get that the CPC have broken any laws? Once the petty Liberals stop blocking the bill, then maybe you can speak of these things, but until then they haave not broken anything.

The times were the early 50's and yes the WWII was fresh in the minds and hearts of many who could rmember those times and yes the vast proportion of the people that were around had either been in the war or had family taken in the war. The traditions that were setup after the world had sacraficed so much, were not only Canadian but many other countries. But Canada was a very big contriutor in those wars in both lives and resources. The Korean war was a little later. But even before this war we had Rememberence day going right back to WWI. Canada for a country that was very knew at the time, we had few things that were our own, but this day was for the Canadians who fought side by side with others to keep the world free. We did not knit pick that this guy or that guy was a different nationality, because we were Canadians now and forever more. That meant something back then. If you had these protesters back then, to have the nerve to wear white poppies saying that all wars were senseless and the men died senseless deaths, well lets just say you would not dare and it you did, you would have not been seen alive again. Protesting would have been bad enough in those days but to do so on that day would be seen as too much. Maybe it has to with manners. It does seem that today many people do not have any and they think they have the right to force their positions others, even rudely. The fact that the crosses in the end were allowed, is not the point. This again goes back to manners or lack there of. The insult was done and it can not be undone with apologies or anything. I had 16 years of my youth with cadets and reserves etc.. I never fought in any wars, but I knew what respect was and I can tell you that what people see today is not respect. Sometimes I am glad I never get to meet the people I meet here on line, others I would like to meet. It is not due to political differences but rather the ability to go about and do or say something with out trying to be rude. I will admit I have lately taken a more pushy stance on things, because it seems that here if you let things go unchecked they just grow into nastiness. I ignored many a poster because you can see they only stir the pot. Others have agendas. It seems to me that many must be paid to be here. I smile and know that since I am retired I have all the time to post and when I see what should be working aged people on here 12-14 hours a day, it does say something.

Justin Trudeau is a farily young and while not overly educated he is well educated. He was brought up by his father who we all know very well for his own political views and he would not have escaped all those views during his upbringing. So yes I do find that he would be a person I would watch and want to see just where his views would be and come from. Not because I think he will become a leader in politics but rather out of curiosity, knowing who he is and where he comes from. I wonder at those who would write off anything this person has to say, because of issues they may have held against his father. This is a chance to look at and see just what being rasised in the shadow of a very wise and powerful mans shadow, and how it can and would effect their children. It is more like why is it that the children of a CEO of a large company do well themselves in life, within companies that are not connected to their fathers. Is it because the father has passed on a lifestyle that they feel confident in achiving, or is it the higher education they get? I really do not think that Ben Mulruney is a great person and yes I believe that if not for his fathers influence he would not be on any TV show. He is pathetic as a MC and while he may grow with experience, it is plainly seen that no one without help and backing would ever get the opporunities he has been given. I must say that even though I believe that both these young men have many things past on to them by their fathers, it will be interesting to see how each plays out thier lot in life. That to me is more interesting then much of what now passes for TV entertainment.

It has been a longday for you Nroman, you are again bringing up the hate speech crap and gay again. We all know Haper voted against this bil as we all believe he should have voted against it. Since you have no idea or understanding of what this bill was about, it is not surprising that you once againhave be proven wrong. I asked earlier if you were new at this as it sems you have very little of life experiences to give you a background on most topics. You just seem way too blindered to things Harper and not the real issues that are involved. Ypou look for things taken out of context so you can twist them to what you want. Too many older people here to let you get away with that. Also the up and coming guys are a whole lot more informed then you seem to be. In time maybe you will see what I mean

By any chance are you just new to any of this? There were so very distinguishing things that happened between those times. The main one being that the basis for the war in Iraq was very much in doubt and the faulty data was not seen as a cause to go to war. Something like people tell you that diving off the dock into the ocean is safe and the watter is deep and clear and never any problems. So you dicide to do the dive, but just as you are about to leap off you see the back fin of a great white shark. Do you still go, even though everyone else said it was safe, or do you take the new data and change your mind accordingly. Now which type of decision maker would you vote for? Before you can start to bring all things from the past into the future, and have real meaning. You need to first study all the things that were part of that way of thinking at the time. I would not have any respect for any leader that got into the Iraq debacle now. There are just so many indicators that show this was not a good move. Which is why you hear some people say "it semed like a good idea at the time"

Kimmy You are right that this has been overlooked and what also bothers me is the fact that this person was arrested in Usbekestan and then turned over to the Chinese. This has the same makings of the Mahar Arar, but with another ex-soviet government. The intracacies of all this should not be costing Harper and support and the truth to told he should be held in higher regard for taking the stance and protecting a Canadian citizen now being held ina Chinese jail, and without the ability of our embassy to have contact with him. This is just as wrong now as it was for Arar. Maybe if we stop the bickering long enough we will see that Harper is doing the job he should be doing. He is not just letting it slide by like the Liberals did. The meeting is going ahead apparently and the Chinese have said they welcome the Human Rights talks. I hope this is true. I do know that if Harper can make China release this person and return him to Canada, that the Chinese vote here in Canada will all be for Harper no matter what elkse he does. Not that I believe this was harper's reasons for the intervention. I believe this goes directly to the family values and beliefs he has towards his fellow man. To me that is refreshing compared to the constant badgering we seem to hear all too much of.

Sigh, once again you've completely missed the point. Perhaps if I say it enough times, it just might penetrate. Section 318 of the Criminal Code of Canada states that it is a hate crime to promote or advocate the killing of homosexuals. That statement in Section 318 is a direct result of the passage of Bill C-250. Harper voted against Bill C-250. In case you missed it, here's the story on section 318: http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/hatecrimes/ Once again bringing this into the debate in a thread that has nothing to do with Gay issues period. Get over yourself and give it a rest please. The thread is about Harper's stance on China. Where is there anything mentioned about gay speech or hate crimes? You said you were heterosexual and I will take your word for that. But you do seem to be stuck on the gay stuff for what would seem like you waking hours, and I am not so sure of your dream time. Tell me what you think about Harper's position on China, and please do not start agin with he is a social conservative. This is not about that, but rather in how he views Canada's role in dealing with the Chinese Government.

Or maybe he voted that way because he saw no need to further protect gays and lesbeins because he felt they have way too much protection so far in our society. He may have just decided that good plain old family values are what we should be pushing. Not a Sexual life style that can only prey on others children as they can never reproduce their own naturally. Also my case in point is that you bring ever thread to again talk about this. This thread is about Democracy in Afghanistan. I do not see Democracy as having sexual orientation to be part of it. In fact I believe that the bedrooms should be left out of all governments, except when protecting the rights of minors and children. So yes I find you obvious predeliction with gay issues to be bordered on obssession. Personally I do not care of they kill gays in Afghanistan or not. It was not so long ago gays were imprisoned here in Canada. Also there were earlier times when they were just cast out of any villages and left on their own to die. So what is happening in Afghanistan is a change is moving more towards a democracy, and in that given enough time civil rights will be an important issue, and if they have not killed of all the gay people by then, maybe they can lobby for some gay rights. That is how it happened here but it took over 100 years to happen. So if they change any sooner then that, then they are much better then us at this now aren't they? I do not want to harp on about this as like I said gay is not the issue in this thread. It is about the new democracy that is starting to grow in Afghanistan. Mostly because our troops and Nato have chosen to give these people a chance to have a say in what and how they live their lives. For some of these people this is the first taste of freedom they have ever known. We need to give them a chance to try out the new ways and see that choices may not be a bad thing. Any thoughts about what gay people do or say in not even a small issue right now.

There seems to be a very disturbing faction of posters that have been allowed to trample on Canadian traditions, and get away with it. So this emboldens them to go even further. I must say that this year I was more then appalled at how the people allowed these miscreants to lessen Rememberence Day ceremonies with wearing white poopies and all the nasty ati-war garbage they have been using up to that day. I never thought I would see the day when people would allow that kind of ignorant behaviour to go unchecked by the public. But these are changing times and I guess there is going to be a big split in views and splittering into groups, that are going to oppose each other. For example the starter of this thread has always tried to make points about gay rights and things in every thread he does. Even when gay is not an issue, he will try and make it so. So yes, I suppose he is gay and that to him is top priority in all things he does. We let that slip by, mostly because it really is not worth the argument. We are allowing here in Canada children to bring Kirpin's to school, but do not allow cross in a 3rd grade Rememberence display. These are things that in my time as a child would not have been tolerated by the people. Now it is all just turned upside down, that a normal hetrosexual person who is not overtly religious feels like a foreigner in their own country. This is a shame and it needs to stop. I promised myself after seeing what this last Nov 11 2006 was and has become, and I do not like it. It is not Canadian and is not what I think the majority of Canadians think or want. But because we have sat by and let these others speak and we let it go unchecked, we see the results. I will not let this go unchecked again. It is time for the true majority to speak out and put the minorities in their place. No more special interests, and giving these people a pass because they are not Canadians. This is Canada and we have Canadian traditions, learn them and be part or stay out of them completely. No we do not want to blend these into other lands traditions in any way. I must say that I am disappointed that we now have to push our way just so we can keep our traditional ways.

This is what makes your day a worthy thing? Do you really think that this issue will grow legs and run, or are you just throwing it out as something to smear people with, that has nothing based in fact. Surely we can find some better things to debate then this.

Enough GH I have just had more then enough of you and reported you and these posts to Greg. Let him handle you.

GH I stand by what I said and yes the promise I made was because much earlier it was said that all the people attacking your posts were what made you go to swearing etc. So I pulled myself out of it, and you were the same way for the whole month. That to me is proof that what you get yourself involved in is of your own making. So read anything you want in this, but I have said what I mean. I also said this whole thread was stupid and was a slap in the face once more about Rememberence day and that there were many more things needing discussion then this stuff. I am totally amazed that you are here and others are not, but that is not up to me. If you think I am picking up a torch, then think again. I have said after the way people behaved in the lead up to Nov11, that I will no more let the things slide that I did before. It is those who do these things and get away with it that need to be proved wrong and never let them foget that. Because they are more dangerous then any terrorist will ever be.

Toronto eats up the vast majority of the provincial coffers and yes they already get more then any other city in Canada. The trouble is that Toronto thinks they deserve more and more. While they are the countries largest city and they are in the smallest area gives them very dense populations. The infastructure in and around Toronto cost Canadians at least 10 times more then any other city in Canada. In fact if you look at southern Ontario, you will find hald the population there. They all scream for more money for eveything. But it is a lot easier to put the infastructure in place in that small area then it is to connect the rest of Canada. I remeber before the 401 and we had to get from Galt ontario to Toronto using hwy 97 and the QE. That was 46 years ago. If you look now and see, you will find that most of the spending in this country already goes to Toronto. They had better look for other ways to raise cash, as the rest of Canada is now also there with their hands out.

Nigeria and Venezuala, are about as stable as a wild mustang (horse not car). I do not think that anyone looking at these places for oil would put much hope on steady long term supply. They will fill a need when they are not fighting civil wars or the people uprising and threatening the governments. For now the Chinese have made deals with Iran and are laying vast pipelins to get their oil from there, but their demand as their economy grows will far outstretch the resources there.

Loking for the exact place to draw the line is futile. Society willnever agree on a definite place and feel good about it. But with certain safe guards in place like the close in age exception, I would say that to draw the line at 16 is probably a good choice. I feel that while yes there are many 16 yearolds who will have learned to be mature in their thoughts, there are also a large number who can not be said to be so. While I would preferr the age to be set at 18, and the close in age clause to be there, then by that time we would have pretty much made sure we covered the issue as best as possible. Most will not agree with me that 18 should be the correct number, but if they look at the fact that it would cover with the 5year close in age rule those from 13 on up. Which to be truthful that is when things start starting to take hold for most people. But as I said since 18 probably will not fly, I would see my way to agreeing to 16 as the age of consent.

While our country would have little affect on China under normal times on the position of human rights, we find ourselves in a position where China is now more suscepitble to our input then at other times. The Chinese people are switching away from their rice based diets to more grain based and that in itself will be a huge market for our wheats and other grains. Our energy is another thing that can be sold quickly to any of a number of countrys, so it also is a very big draw. At this point in time, if push comes to shove, we are in the bigger position. I find that Harpers stance on human rights and tying it to the trade eventually will pay off. The Chinese will in the end respect us more for it.

Democracy can mean many things to different people. In a country like Afghanistan where they never had a say in anything the government did, and you either followed what they said or chances are you would be punished until you were handicapped or killed, or you followed the government no matter what. Now in that country just the simple chance to vote on who they would like to have in the government, is a very big thing. This was never even a choice before. Now the fact that even with the elections there still will be members of the government that bought, brided or threatened they own election, is just part of the natural growing pains that come from a terror ruled country, to a democratically elected government. We do not want to cut and run just because this first try at freedom of the elecorate has still some unsavoury guys. With time and a lot of effort the people will feel they can make a difference and yes it will grow more and more to eliminate those who would try and defeat the purpose of democracy. Since Tasmania can not keep up with the demand for Opiates for the legal drug industry, it then can be that much of the crops in Afghanistan, could be used to fill that need and there by make these farmers now growing for the illegal markets, to change to the legal markets. But you also have to remember the illegal markets will try to extort the farmers into selling to them, and in this country where there are vast areas where there are little to no police or army to help the farmers, we then have to fine ways to train and pay police and afghan soldiers, to take the right position and make the lives of the farmers safe from treats. When you can do this, you will see democracy grow. Right now, what you see in Afghanistan are just the seed of democracy. We need now to help and protect the growth that is slowly coming from that. It seems that a lot of the members on this board are just too impatient to let things grow and happen the way they were ment to be. They want instant results, and nothing short of that would be considered as a successful mission. They forget that our own system is still growing and we as a country are evolving each and every day. Since our own system is not instant, then why are we demanding that of our troops and the people in Afghanistan? Or is it that we are frightened that in the growth of the new democracy in Afghanistan, they may show us that some of our own ideas were not the way to go? Either way I learned a long time ago, no matter how much I wanted something to happen and that the more I oushed it to happen, that it will only go at the rate that it will occur naturally.

So this is what happens when there is not a scandel a week coming from the ruling party? All this knit picking about who stood where and who received the salute from the troops. I am sure if you dig much harder and deeper, you can find a public school paper that harper wrote saying the poem of Flanders Field, or something the like. As much as I promised over a month ago to give GH a pass on his stupid positions, it has been long over and my pointing out just what he is and the things he does, has made not one difference. That just goes to show you he was not goated into being the person that displayed so much hate and bile towards all things Harper. Look people there are real terrible things going on now with the Liberal leadership race. There are enough bad things right there to satisfy even the most voraciuos appetites for scandel. Why do you have to mar a day like Rememberence day with your petty bickering. Go where the real nasty stuff grows naturally. That being the Liberal party and all its infighting. There you get to see 8 or 9 people melt down over the next 2-3 weeks. The real nasty stuff will be coming out the flood gates the closer we get to the final weekend. Now there will be a story for everyone to get their teeth into.

The whole environmentalist lobby was very wrong to make the statements it did, and an apology just does not cut it. What this showed was that the environmentalists saw a method to make light of what an Environment Minister would have to say. They did this because they knew it would not be in support of ther cause. So they used the lies and smears to get they way. Does that sound like people who claim they have scientific truths on their side? They know full well that very little of the whole issue of Climate Change, would soon drop the money they make by being alarmist, and so they will try anything they can. I make sure to read as much of their reports as I can, and I simply will say that there is one recurring theme over and over, that being that at the rate of (pick the issue they are sampling ) if it continues to grow at this rate we will (pick the problem they will state) in 75 to 100 years. What I find so odd is they then try to tkae issue of CPC plan that will do things within 50 years that will make the longer term prediction irrelevent. They want to impose this doom to get the money they want to research to collect the same doom and get more money. For that reason I just do not even give small support to the environmentalists, as so far they are more far fetched then the scifi movies on TV.

I do not want to water down my response as a person who had many people die in the WWII and Korea, and I was involved in the militeary for 16 years in my youth, so you are wrong when you say no one who fought in the wars would say what I said. I come from a very proud military family and one where my descendants were of German desecent, so when they volenteered to fight in WWII they were used in the most dangerous missions and fought mostly always frontline or behind enemy lines. They were awarded many many metals for this, not that they expected any. The world was a different time and place back then, and all of this political correctness would not have been tolerated by them or the public period. There fought and died for freedom of people to live their lives as they wished. Not so they can condem the use of a cross in a childs Rememberence display. They would be the first to say that if these people can not fit into Canadian society then they should leave. So do not even go there. This last Rememberence Day has been a real tough one on the vets. There liv ed to see white poppies being worn by people who wanted to say all war is wrong and by doing that it was a slap in the face to them. This is not the Canada they fought for. We have allowed the Canada they had in mind to be replaced by these protesting, and unknowing people, who now run their minority ways roughshod over all others. History was written on the wars and it is only now that you can see the huge efforts being made to change that. We all must learn history as it above all else teachs us about what and how we came to this point. We need to respect history and learn from it so we can not repeat tha worst of what has happened before. The public school system iis meant to be for the majority of the public. They will learn a cirriculum that is based on the values and teachings that the majority of people believe in. If you object to this, there are options where you can teach your own child the values you like but let them know that it is not what most others believe, or have them private schooled. Any school principal that gives into being pushed to remove crosses should not be the leader of any school. Leadership means making changes that are in keeping with the majority, not giving into the minority. It is really that simple. I have had more then enough after the way this last Rememberence day has gone, that I will now and for ever more push my position that it is time for the majority to take back the country and bring back tha values that should be expected by all and that were also assumed taught by parents who should have known better. The cross is a christain symbol only because Christ was executed on a cross. The crosses were used by the Romans and other heathen groups through out history, so it is just one of many things the cross represents. The Star of David is a hebrew symbol but does that mean all stars are the same? It is time we start doing the right thing about this and teach the children that a cross when used as a tombstone was grave marker and for each cross a man had died during the war. That is what it truly represents in the poem, but nobody seems willing to explain that to the children, who really are the ones who need to know this information. It does not matter who or what religion they were, this is howwe buried our war dead at the time. It was impossible to return bodies home from europe because people were being killed so fast that they had to be buried so not to spread disease. Maybe if we teach our children the real meaning of respect and about how the world stood up to right a wrong, and men and women fought and died to amke us free to do what we have today. Maybe then it will again sink in. Soldiers are not peacekeepers, they are there and trained to defend our country from those who would attack our way of life. We need them now more then ever because the biggest attack on our way of life is from within.

This is just way too far beyond any rational thinking that people object to the crosses period. Canada needs to start shipping people back out of this country. These politiacally correct idiots should not even be given a sounding board. It comes from a peom written by a doctor who made the references during his position at Flanders fields. Get that straight all you half witted religious zealots. We will not allow the likes of you to ever change out history plain and simple. Any scholl principal who would have made the decision to remove the crosses shoudl be fired and never again be able to over see our children as they are incapable of seeing the right from the wrong. This is the public school system and it caters to the majority not the minority. If you can not put up with that then take your children out and private school them. Or better yet if you can not see your way into blending into Canadian mainstrean, then go back where you came. There should not be any debate on this. It is a historical event and the peopm was written the way it was, not to be religous. So there is no foul here but the narrow minded people who thing that they are being presecuted by seeing a cross. Well take a look at any cemetary and you will see crosses everywhere. It is not a christain thing and those who try to make it so need a hard slap in the head.

GH nobody is stopped from going to Afghanistan, you can book a flight and go and as long as your passport is in order you can leave on your own schedule. It is when you are asking the government to pay and also be prepared to make you trip there safe that issues arise. I am sure that if any member of the opposition really wants to go there to see what it is like, The government will be happy to send them as long as they know in advance that there is a high probability that they could come under enemy fire. Hell I am sure Harper would love to send all the opposition there for an extended stay. But Things like this have to have certain expectancy of safety involved with them. O'Conner and Harper both made last minute trips that were no advertised because of the security concern. If the opposition wanted to do the same I am sure it would be approved. But no the opposition want this to be a photo op and with full press. That is where security just can not be given. The insurgentents get many more points if they can take out enemy MP's. So they would be very high on the suicide bombings and also for sniper attacks etc. So be careful what you wish for, as you may just get it.

Noramchateau You seem to be making people want to hate you and it is working. Without having to go inot the real ins and outs of this you have just refussed to see what are the very truths that people have taken the time and care to point out to you. You just try to brush them off as if the y dandruff on your sleeve. I assume by the way you are posting that gay rights are your top priority in all things governments. I am not sure if that makes you gay or that it just make you appear gay. But that shoudl not really matter, as either way you still have the same rights that any person enjoys. But you need to open the scope of your mind to what things really are about. This thread has nothing to do with Gay rights or any of the things you have hijacked it for. Please get back on topic or refuse to post that is a choice of two and there is no third about gay issues.

Blackdog I read what you had to say about what I posted earlier and you had the gull to say I know nothing about the freedom that was fought for. You must be a completely ignorant person. I served with the cadets and reserves for over 10 years. I come from a family where we have more medales from the WWII then you could image. Since my family was of German descent, most of our members were used in the most dangerous missions and operations. We were proudly Canadian, and to have a person like you comment disparagingly upon that is why I hope all these white poppie wearing people stay away from the ceremonies tommorrow. It is for their safety I suggest this because when the feelings that do become present at times like this, are then confronted by these others who basically say all war was wrong, well there may well be some members of families like my own who may take this back to them. I could easily see a riot and maybe a few of these pacifists will know what it is like to be beaten so badly that they never walk, or something just as bad. This free speech is one thing but to then inflict yourselves on the day that was set to honour all the war dead and those who still are fighting, is just so stupid, that these idiots do not see what could happen. When you learn what responsible freedom is then you can comment but you do not have even one small iota of what it is about. You have shown that to everyone here.

My honest gut reaction to some one with the white poppies would be spit in their face and call them the cowards they are. But the law would frown on that. But I can only hope that these types stay far away from the war memorial and stay well out of the light. I am not sure if their presence would start a ruckus, but if it did start one it would be hard to stop it with the feelings of that day being so near. I suppose that the memories of those who in my family gave their lives during WWII to make it so these misguided fools can legally spout their thoughts, is bad enough. But to actually have them present at the Cenitafe displaying their contempt is just much more then many will be able to bear. I have made my feeling quite clear on these people and if I had a choice to save the life of a dog or the life of one of these white poopy wearing people, the dog would be resting comforatbly at my side. Since these people do not share the basic beliefs of Canada, they should not expect anything from Canada. Yes I have gone so far as to call them traitors, because we are at war and these type of people think it fashionable to be against this. If it was another time about 70 years ago, these types would be found face down in the dirt, for what they are free to do today. Too bad the laws stop people from doing that anymore. It would help cleanse the country of a few who do not deserve to be in it. This is what Canada has become and I must say that if I thought it was made of a majority of these fools, I would just give up on it. But I take faith in that these people who would wear a white poppy to an event where it will be seen as an insult to the veterns, are just the bottom clinging scum that society must tolerate. As for aour troops everywhere and those who were lost, I can say that I feel very grateful for what you have done and will honour all those who have taken the challenge to make Canada a better place to be.