blueblood

what do you mean not gain? Instead of a big pile of grain there is fuel. What do you think before ethanol farmers sat in the coffee shop all day? No wasting energy is producing grain to rot in a pile to be given away and be poorer as a result. No market for ethanol??? Tell that to the Americans. 4 bucks a gallon plus an energy policy that is rivalling the space race tells me there is a market for ethanol. It's better to spend that 7 barrells of oil to produce fuel that motorists use than to produce grain that rots in a pile. The Alberta oil subsidy is not a dumb idea, it provided the startup to get the infrastructure to produce more oil and attract investment in order to pump it out in the first place. Same with ethanol. Why is paying ADM a waste of money, the better they do, the better my stock portfolio is. If your concerned with ADM making a fortune, invest in the company. As for underestimating Dion, I am underestimating his logic. I am being punished for doing my part to improve the environment.

There has been a german variant on Future weapons as well. I still think the cluster bomb is cooler, on bomb from a fighter was dropped in Iraq destroying the enemy armoured column with spec ops in the visinity. Although the bomb is a million bucks a pop.

That's a good way to bankrupt a government in the middle of a worldwide economic slowdown, are you expecting a cheque from the governments of England and France?

In another thread debating this issue it was pointed out that it takes 7 barrells of oil to make 8 of ethanol. That's a gain, then there is the fact that Grain is produced all the time no matter who uses it, We're still burning oil, so you can take off 3 or four barrells of oil because that gets burned in normal ag production. Companies like ADM may have destroyed the family farm but urban folks let it happen. Corn shows a gain in energy production, before it was made into tortillas and given away, now it's worth something and helping meet energy demands. There are billions of litres of biofuel produced now, the only thing that has changed is that there is less tortillas and cooking oil being made now. My time's not being wasted, my time out in the field is now profitable. This was a much better way to address the financial situation of family farmers. Instead of 4 billion dollars going to grain farm programs which didn't do anything, 2.3 billion is being spent and jobs and better returns are all over the place. With gas prices they are today, ethanol would have been productive to start right now without subsidies, the US and Canadian gov't just was proactive. Does an Alberta oilfield subsidy in the 1990's not make sense?

Hmm, Obama believes marriage is between a man and a woman and is beating the war drum for Afghanistan. Pretty lefty of him. Harper believes in individual responsibility as does Obama. How will ending NAFTA bail the Americans out of their mess? NAFTA has been very good to the Americans.

In the renaissance, there was "evidence" suggesting that the Earth was the centre of the universe, some scientists called bullshit when the vast majority of the scientific community said the earth was the centre of the universe. Let the scientists call bullshit with the global warming. They seem to be proving their case pretty well.

The NDP running on how anti-business they are, their policies are keeping us behind other energy exporting provinces such as Sask, and Alberta. That hog moratorium also applies to every hog producer in Manitoba, even the little guys. Even if a person owns 20 pigs, they cannot buy another one in Southern Manitoba all because a few elitists think that pig farmers aren't allowed to get ahead. What ag industry is next? What other business in Manitoba is the NDP going to shut down because some elitists are complaining. Saying who can and can't run a business is not a policy that goes well with the electorate. The left leaning federal Liberal party even knows that. I'm seeing one long sitting cabinet minister gone the next election at least, maybe two. To think all conservatives are loaded is hogwash, I live in one of the poorest ridings in Canada and my tory MP had more votes than all the other parties put together.

The legislature packed with farmers till the wee hours of the morning, billboards, an advertising campaign, and media coverage is not an uproar???

I actually agree, it has to be both private/gov't thing in order to work. BOTH have to be accountable

I'd say the cluster bomb that can destroy an entire tank column with little to no collateral damage is amazing.

Those business's in turn pay tax and at times more tax than the average person, so it balances out in the end. I was actually able to buy land in saskatchewan, I didn't because moving machinery and trucking would be a nightmare. Now I'm kicking myself because of it. 4 quarters corner to corner and flat to boot, I'm really kicking myself. That being said I don't agree with the part of the law about fellow Canadians wanting to snap up land. Like I said for security reasons it's best for the food and fuel supply to be Canadian controlled. There's also hunting enthusiasts from Alberta who bought some of my old cattle pasture as a private hunting spot. At the provincial level it doesn't matter as property taxes get paid to the province no matter who owns it. The federal income tax is another story. That line of reasoning of mine only works if a Canadian and a Foreigner are on equal ground to exploit the land, naturally priority should be given to the Canadian. If the foreigner is better (which in Agriculture the Canadian is equal or better) then open it up, such as the Alberta oil patch. I'm saying I'm a centrist the same as you are, the tories aren't republicans you know just like the liberals aren't communists.

Could always run in another riding I find my MTS bill to be very reasonable compared to the competition. I'm thinking if MB Hydro is a crown corporation that exports a lot of electricity, why is my hydro still increasing? That's a good point, the NDP raising corporate tax rates when the fed Libs/Cons were decreasing them is actually hurting Manitobans on their hydro bill. I can understand that coming from a private company, but a crown corporation that exports? In theory there should be the Venezuela thing happening and I get dirt cheap hydro and the "foreigners" get "soaked". Doer has really angered the rural population with his hog moratorium. You and I both know that hog barns are not the only cause of pollution in Lake Winnipeg. There is also the city of Winnipeg itself and people like myself who use fertilizer. All those cause the perfect storm. (Perfect reservoir for Algae ethanol when the technology comes...) My MLA Struthers is toast next election, this was partly his baby, he is the minister responsible for this and has a lot of explaining to do in a predominantly agricultural riding why he wants to attack the ag industry and what ag industry is next in the NDP agenda. Struthers barely beat a rookie PCer who entered the race late. The NDP has also been a real pain in the neck to small business owners starting up, I've heard of a couple that have failed because of ridiculous gov't red tape. Problems in the rural areas with NDP seats might open the doors up for Liberals in Winnipeg to steal. A well run Liberal campaign will put the NDP out of office, the tories need the Liberals to pull off a win. If the tories win it would be a minority and that would be happy days for the MB Liberals. As for the NDP being risk adverse, they hit a landmine with the hog moratorium. Other than that I agree.

In about 2012, I will be putting in at least 2% biodiesel in all my trucks and farm equipment. That's 2% savings right there. I'd probably do as well as the Alberta Oilpatch under NEP as far as the non-subsidy thing goes. The gov't "subsidizes" the Alberta Oilpatch, was that a dumb policy??? The government used to write cheques, that cheque only covered one tank of fuel and cost the taxpayers a pile of money. With higher grain prices I can contribute back into the economy, implement dealers are sold out of equipment. Demand for fertilizer has created a large demand for jobs out in Saskatchewan to mine Potash. Stock prices in companies such as Monsanto, Agrium, PotashCorp, etc. have risen significantly in a Stock Market that has been hurting. I dropped over 200 large on equipment this year, the GST from that is more than most people's income taxes. Those plants themselves also provide jobs, but I guess some people aren't allowed to work. Oh then there's the farmers from third world nations that don't have to compete against food dumping from countries that have cheap food policies. I think that sounds like a good deal for everyone. Why should I be forced to give food handouts to people who won't produce their own? I'm a taxpayer just like the rest of Canadian's, if I want to lobby for ethanol, that's my right. Ethanol production will not only continue to last, it will expand. When those plants are paid off, they make a ton of money, why would a government want to stop a cash cow? The sheer volume of ethanol produced in the states has made the high gas prices in the states somewhat reasonable instead of outrageous. The price of bread hasn't risen that much, the average Canadian isn't going to go broke buying bread. That's why the government only implemented a small percentage. The only thing that's going to happen is there's less grain to go to Iran or Pakistan, guess what they can grow their own or go elsewhere, I don't owe them cheap grain. By having food prices at higher levels it keeps farms profitable, the more farms that are profitable means the more farms that exist, the more farms that exist means more competition and it puts a ceiling on prices. The way things were going 5 yrs. ago would have resulted in giant outfits being able to afford to shut down and manipulate the prices in much worse ways. Grain production in Canada was being overproduced, we were producing too much. Now we are just burning waste grain, food prices are still reasonable, we have a booming industry, there are more dollars floating around in the economy, no more tractor parades in Ottawa, and those smart enough to invest in Ag biz companies are making money. The Carbon Tax however will be much more disasterous on food prices. Grain prices at the gate have increased by over 100% thanks in part to ethanol while at the same time food prices only jumped about 20%. So blaming farmers for high food prices is proposterous. The high cost of fuel is what is driving prices across the board, including food/grain. Now Dion wants to make fuel even more expensive. That will result in fertilizer being more expensive, fuel being more expensive, chemical more expensive, electricity more expensive -> those are my costs, and I can't pass those to the consumer because grain is a commodity and there is too much competition from other farmers. Then my customers have to deal with higher freight and processing which means I get less and you guys have to pay more in order for the middle man to pay expenses and turn a profit, not only that the middle man's stock shares decrease hurting you guys even more. So with the Carbon Tax everyone loses. Ethanol compared to this looks much better to the average Canadian. When a country is a net exporter of goods, higher prices is a good thing for that country. To be defend the oil patch making money hand over fist due to high energy prices and at the same time attack the farmer for making money due to high grain prices is sheer hypocrisy. The Western World values energy as much as food, I'm providing a service and am finally getting fairly compensated for it.

Yes there has to be independence, but those people have to be accountable in some way or another. To my understanding it is very very hard to can federal employees, it's also to my understanding that they have their lazy and incompetant fools as well. Why it's so hard to fire federal employees I don't know. The federal employee can be just as unscrupulous and incompetant as the private industry policing itself.

I see nothing wrong with the government investing money in enterprises that will boost the economy and will eventually get paid back and then some in taxes collected. It's just good business. I do have a problem with taxing the crap out of businesses and seeing the money sent to areas where it won't grow. As for the land, it's national security and fiscal responsibility. Look at it this way, two equally able people are wanting the land, who is the gov't going to want to use it, the one who pays income tax or the one who doesn't??? If both are equally able to grow a good crop, why sell out when we can strengthen our own producers so they can compete better on the world stage? This program does not cost you a dime, and is better for the Canadian economy. Your also a huge picker and chooser when it comes to what you like to see the gov't spend money on and do, we all are. My mistake, the Universities then.

Winnipegers like the way NDP does things Struthers is toast next election, he narrowly beat a rookie PCer who entered the campaign late. If what Dobbin says is true about the Liberals influencing the NDP, look to them to get more votes. The NDP is going to hurt in it's rural ridings due to it's hog moratorium. I expect the Liberals to pick up some seats in Winnipeg. The cons are in power in Saskatchewan, Sasktel and Saskpower and SGI still are crowns. What's wrong with selling the power company, I'd like to invest in MB hydro and have more competition so my power bill goes down. Having people in at the legislature to complain at 2 in the morning does not look good for any government. I expect a change next time around. Hell, if Dobbin wanted to run in Winnipeg in the next election, I'd change my signature to vote Dobbin. Whatever gets those commies out of the legislature.

I am a family farmer, ethanol has been very good for me. As far as the fuel equation, I'm sorry but that fuel gets used anyways whether the grain is used for food, fuel, or confetti. I grow 2000 acres every year like clockwork and use the same amount of fuel every year like clockwork, the only thing that changes is the customer. Why do I owe third world people cheap food? American and European gov'ts spend billons of dollars in the 90's to flood third world countries with cheap food and force their farmers out of business. The developed world craves energy, farmers are answering the call. If we get a better price to turn grain into gasoline guess what happens. If you want to produce food at less than the cost of production to give away to the third world, by all means have at it. As for the carbon tax, farmers are being asked to store carbon with carbon credits, have developed practices that have cut fuel comsumption in half, are providing a fuel that can be grown and is renewable, and are big contributers to geothermal heating, and what do we get for it from Dion, a bloody tax punishing us. Popping a huge tax on carbon is going to cause a massive increase in food prices and at the same time put farmers back in the poor house. We're better off with ethanol and doing nothing.

The one problem I have with gov't inspectors is that they can't be fired. In my opinion that puts them on the same level of accountability as the company inspectors themselves. I know in the grain industry the privately owned elevator companies do a good job of screening as contaminated grain will cause the whole load to be dumped outside. I've heard of an entire ship being dumped because of a couple of mouse droppings in the load. With millions of dollars at risk of being dumped, the grain companies run a tight ship. A combination of both company inspectors and government inspectors who can be fired would be best.

I'm accusing you of a big double standard. You chose to live in the "evil west". If Russia is the light of the world hop on a plane. Your arguments have as much credibility as Chretien during sponsorship. It's funny you defend Russia, but you chose to flee from there, priceless. MikeDavid00 would have a bird if he read this thread.

That's a matter of opinion, I believe that there is nothing wrong wih gov't investing in industries that will eventually turn profits and pay the gov't back in taxes. I don't call that socialism, that's investment. It's also a matter of national security, it is in our best interest to have Canadians control our own food and fuel supply or we'd be in a mess like the Pakastanis and Americans. There's ways to get around that, there's some farmers from Europe immigrating to Canada to set up shop. As for the CMA, why is it there are only 100 grads from med school? There are plenty of smart enough kids at university, why is med school such an old boys club? Then theres the CRTC and their policies. The thing seperating keeping farmland Canadian owned from this is that the farmland being Canadian owned doesn't hurt anybody. It's attitudes like that is why the Liberals don't succeed in western canada.

Why not? Canada produces far more grain that it can ever consume. Americans and Easterners use large amounts of energy, that needs to be addressed and is. The sheer amount of ethanol produced in the states very likely prevented gasoline rationing.

This is why I do my butcher my own beef in december in a nonheated shop. I waste 1/2 to 2/3 of the animal because I have that luxury of next to no overhead and it still works out cheaper than buying at the store, August, take a look at the share price of Maple Leaf. They messed up and are now paying for it. Other than that I agree that gov't employees should be canned for incompetance.

No, the carbon tax is wealth distribution, the ethanol program is an investment in industry and one of the ways the americans are reducing foreign oil.

That happened when satellite TV became affordable, watching 2 or 3 channels when somebody in town got 100 was ridiculous. Satellite TV picked up and now everyone gets great tv. I do miss the old 14ft satellite dishes with a huge selection of channels.

I agree, sports do well for the CBC and they do a good job of covering sports. But only 30% pro sports, do they want the network to fail?