betsy

Was the internment wrong? I don't think so. Because it was also for their own protection. What was wrong was the way the interned were treated. They shouldn't have been treated as enemies.

I'd be proud when we can freely express our sentiments in retaliation for these insults by being able to freely draw cartoons - in our own country!

Of course, it is religion itself that is actually behind this kind of behaviour! Whether it is actually Islam's teachings or not, does not matter! It's not the point! AND WHETHER THE LEADERS or whoever orders these people to become martyrs are true believers of a god or not, OR whether they (the leaders) are only using it to manipulate these suicide bombers, is till not the point! For how long? Does it matter? No. It still all boils down to RELIGION! FAITH! BELIEF! THEIR OWN INTERPRETATION OF THEIR RELIGION! FAITH! BELIEF! And by they, I mean the actual suicide bombers who are laying their life for their god. That they are being duped or manipulated does not matter. That these suicide bombers had fully accepted and believe the interpretations of bull that their leaders had given them, is what does matters. If they believe that they'll get dwarves and virgins or sheeps or whatever as a divine reward in the afterlife in exchange for martyrdom - in the name of Allah - that's their faith! Their willingness to die is driven by faith! THAT IS THE POINT! The point is, they are doing these suicide bombings believing they are following and pleasing their god.

I think I saw a few people today break all 10 Commandments of the road all at once. Anyway, I can't seem to see your point about this topic. Can you explain?

And Harper with MacKay. Hey, like I said....every group has them! FRY! That's the one! The "burning crosses" I forgot!

Oh those loose cannons! Every group has them....just like the Liberals got Parrish and Ignatieff. At least this "10 Commandments" ought to help reduce road accidents. And I think that's more important.

It took Pearl Harbor for some people to wake up. Mind you, we're talking of Americans. I don't know how much....or how many it will have to be for Canadians.

Some people....don't understand that quest for survival is not only a natural right.....it is human nature. Therefore I say, "Israel, you are well within your rights to do whatever it takes to survive!"

All I can say about all this: Israel has every right to defend itself.....however it sees fit! Myths & Facts Online Arab/Muslim Attitudes Toward Israel By Mitchell G. Bard ________________________________________ The desire for peaceful relations between Jews and Arabs sometimes leads people to overlook public comments by Arab officials and media publications that are often incendiary and sometimes outright anti-Semitic. Frequently, more moderate tones are adopted when speaking to Western audiences, but more accurate and heartfelt views are expressed in Arabic to the speaker’s constituents. The following is just a tiny sample of some of the remarks that have been made regarding Israel and the Jews. They are included here because they demonstrate the level of hostility and true beliefs of many Arabs and Muslims. Of course, not all Arabs and Muslims subscribe to these views, but the examples are not random, they are beliefs held by important officials and disseminated by major media. They are also included because one of the lessons of the Holocaust was that people of good will are often unwilling to believe that people who threaten evil will in fact carry out their malevolent intentions. “There is no doubt that the new wave (of attacks) in Palestine will wipe off this stigma (Israel) from the face of the Islamic world....Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation’s fury (while) any (Islamic leader) who recognizes the Zionist regime means he is acknowledging the surrender and defeat of the Islamic world....As the Imam [Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini] said, Israel must be wiped off the map.” — Speech by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Associated Press , October 26, 2005 “Our enemies ... don't understand that a suicide operation ... is a natural right.” — Hamas political leader Khaled Meshaal Agence France Presse, May 3, 2006 “It is the Palestinian people's right to engage in resistance until the occupation ends. As long as the resistance is legitimate, everything related to it is also legitimate.” — Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Sheikh Muhammad Ahmad Hussein Media Line, October 5, 2006 “Oh warrior brothers, this is a nation that will never be broken, it is a revolution that will never be defeated. This is a nation that gives an example every day that is imitated across the world. We gave the world the children of the RPG [Rocket Propelled Grenades], we gave the world the children stone [-throwers], and we gave the world the male and female Martyrdom-Seekers [suicide bombers].” — Secretary of Fatah in Gaza Ahmed Hales Abu Maher PA TV, November 14, 2006 http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...battitudes.html

If Bin laden is not wanted by the FBI why is he on the Most Wanted's Top Ten List as Most Wanted Terrorist? On the various bios/studies of Bin laden nowhere is it stated that Bin laden was working for the U.S. in Afghanistan. Bosnia? Really .... where, when and how? ` She simply spins as she goes. She deliberately lied.

Why not? We've got many Canadian posters here who are obsessed by the evils of George W. Bush. Sauce for the goose and all that... Amen to that, August!

I know of a Kuzad. That's his last name. He owns a convenience store. He says he's from Iraq. And no, he doesn't have the time to go on-line. Nice fellow, actually. But anyway, what does it matter where anyone originated. He-he-he, gotta love this comedian....and yeah....what does that mean about being an American or Israeli?

As the article pointed out, there are several reasons for this hatred. That one you've cited is quite convenient (for the terrorists) to justify their actions....after all, they want to gain the sympathy of the world, trying to isolate the west by portraying it as the "imperialist oil-grabbing monster." The terrorists leaders may be loonies....but they are not stupid. Yes isn't it? That was why those people who suffered under Saddam Hussein ridiculed him and jubilantly celebrated his death. They must be saying, "well see? what goes around comes around."

I know I said I wouldn't bother with you until you've got something to back up your claim. On second thought, maybe I should give you a sample what we mean by that. Since you said you didn't get about the "envy" part in a previous post....there's high probability you didn't get this one too. So, sister listen up: This here is another sample how to have something to support your claim. This is especially important when your statement is contradicting someone else's. You need proof or another source claiming the same thing, supporting, or proving what you claim to be true.....just so people don't challenge your position saying you're either lying to your teeth or being ignorant. After all, who wants to seriously argue or indulge in a heavy discussion with a liar...or someone who don't know squat what he/she is talking about. This is a forum after all. A political forum. Pure speculation is not enough. A poster caught lying or unable to support a significant claim, and making irresponsible statements and wilfully twisting facts....usually loses his/her credibility. When this happens, he/she is most likely to be challenged to provide proof for just about anything that she claims...which some other posters are dubious about. AND/OR, anything she says is not taken seriously anymore. Here's another proof of substance to support my claim. Bin Laden was raised as a devout Sunni Muslim. From 1968 to 1976 he attended the relatively secular Al-Thager Model School, called "the school of the élite."[14] In the 1960s, King Faisal had welcomed exiled teachers from Syria, Egypt, and Jordan, so that by the early seventies it was common to find members of the Muslim Brotherhood teaching at Saudi schools and universities. During that time, bin Laden was exposed to the Brotherhood's political teachings during after-school Islamic study groups. At university, bin Laden was influenced by Muhammad Qutb and Abdallah Azzam, professors with strong ties to the Muslim Brotherhood. Qutb, an Egyptian, was the brother and publicizer of the late Sayyid Qutb, author of Ma'alim fi-l-Tariq, or Milestones, one of the most influential tracts on the importance of jihad against all that is un-Islamic in the world.[19][1] Azzam,[19] an Islamic scholar from Palestine, was instrumental in building pan-Islamic enthusiasm for jihad against the Soviets in Afghanistan and in drawing Muslims (like bin Laden) from all over the Middle East to fight there.[20] Bin Laden has informal training in Islamic jurisprudence, is considered "well versed in the classical scriptures and traditions of Islam"[21] and has been mentored by scholars such as Musa al-Qarni[22]. Since bin Laden never studied Islam at a seminary (madrasa), he is criticized by Islamic scholars to have no standing to issue religious opinions (fatwa). However, it is possible to obtain scholarly credentials in Islam by learning with individual scholars and obtaining certificates (ijaza) from them.[citation needed] According to Wisal al Turabi, he married the other three because they were "spinsters," who "were going to go without marrying in this world. So he married them for the Word of God."[28][24] According to Abu Jandal, bin Laden's former chief bodyguard, Osama's wife Umm Ali asked Osama for a divorce when they still lived in Sudan, because she said that she "could not continue to live in an austere way and in hardship."[29][24] In 1998, Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri, (a leader of Egyptian Islamic Jihad), co-signed a fatwa (religious edict) in the name of the World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders, declaring: “ [t]he ruling to kill the Americans and their allies civilians and military - is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem) and the holy mosque (in Makka) from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,' and 'fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah'.[56][57] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_Bin_Laden Now, it's your turn to provide something that backs up your claim that OBL is not religious. Your contention. That is all that is required. Are you up to that challenge? Can you deliver?

That all you've got to say? Well I won't bother with you until you've at least provide something to back up your claim. Sorry hon, in a forum such as this, we don't seriously argue about someone's fantasy. This comedy is getting a bit stale....so see ya later. Of course OBL is religious, he's a zealot, OBL certainly became deeply involved in religious activities at university and joined the Muslim Brotherhood, including theological debates and Koranic study. He might not have been a religious zealot when he was very young, but he sure is now. also http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic?idxStru...65507&typeId=13 says he's a religious fanatic Thank you for that info. This is what we mean by "having something to back up a claim."

That all you've got to say? Well I won't bother with you until you've at least provide something to back up your claim. Sorry hon, in a forum such as this, we don't seriously argue about someone's fantasy. This comedy is getting a bit stale....so see ya later.

actually dear betsy, I answered your questions, look, they are there. You don't like? can't understand? I guess my answers could seem vague in light of your confused statements and somewhat nonsensical aspersions. Clarify? here's my answer to gosthacked question, right off the top "In other words, they don't hate "us", they hate Western government interference, though I prefer, resent, and it's totally understandeable" As for OBL, pure nonsense, that he is religious, he may use religion to manipulate, rather like Pat Robertson of James Dobson, or Tim Lehay. He is a rich Saudi, dear family friends of the Bush's are the BinLaden's a CIA operative who has fought TO THE BENEFIT of the US. In Afghanistan and in Bosnia, for starters. He is not even wanted by the FBI for 9/11. And GWB says he is just not important wrt 9/11 any surprise there? Sorry. Personal opinions don't count so much in a forum, especially when you're making such a big claim. Sure we can listen to personal opinions....but to be taken seriously, you've got to have something to back it up. So you stated, OBL is not religious. He is only using it to manipulate. Source please. Otherwise it's just pure speculation on your part. I could easily say that he is actually a transvestite doing Madonna impersonations, and Saddam Hussein was the love of his life, that's why he was just so livid with the USA after Bush dethroned Hussein. All of this hatred is actually all about a lover's revenge! But of course, just like you...I've got nothing to back it up. Yeah-yeah-yeah....they hate western interference....so does other little struggling countries along the way. What else is new. Odd thing though, it's only these terrorists from Muslim countries and their Muslim sympathisers who seem to have big problems with anger management. To the point of self-igniting and self-combusting! Talk about exploding with anger! Must be in the water they drink. Nice try anyway, Kuzadd!

I'm speaking of your fear. The superiority of our societies? The superpower of the US? You confuse and simplify alot of issues. You also let your imagination run away with you baloney. if that was the case, there sure as heck wouldn't be many people in the ME or kids. speaking of despotic countries, how many does the US prop up??? laughter at how self-deluded some of us are. I am sure you are not. Blah-blah-blah! Bwa-ha-ha-ha! In other words, you can't support any of your statements! You can't even indulge in discussing or explaining them! Kindly lift thine eyes to the top of your page and see that topic title? What does it says? EXPLANATIONS NEEDED Oh my Lord, thank you Ghostshack for that! Well Kuzadd, definitely this is one thread where you can't bull your way out of it. You have to abide by the rules. No evasive and very vague responses allowed. And may I add, most especially in your case. He-he-he You gotta explain, babe.

Since your statement is contradicting the research article I've posted, can you provide a source in support of your statement? OBL is religious like Donuts are low cal, it's pretty straightforward. He ain't religious. So where did you get that idea?

Since your statement is contradicting the research article I've posted, can you provide a source in support of your statement?

Fear? it seems the 'west' is more full of fear. Yes, F E A R! I do not agree that the west - namely the USA - is full of fear at all! If the USA ever decides to take out the problem countries in the Middle East, with the full support of its citizens and its close allies, and with total disregard for any conventions or ethics, you think it could not do so? Never confuse the restraint the USA is showing with fear. The despotic dictators has everything to lose! They only remember too well how Saddam Hussein ended up cowering in a hole in the ground! What would a dictator covet the most? Power! The USA being THE SUPER-POWER! The other western nations having power! The superiority of our society! Just compare the accessible streets alone....my golly! And why their people are trying to leave that god-forsaken countries in exchange for life in the West! Why do you think we've got immigrants, refugees and asylum-seekers from that part of the world? Are you telling me all these people coming and lining up to come to the west do not really care for the lifestyle here? So why are they coming here??? Are you suggesting they all have some ulterior motives in being here, and wanting to come here? You must be suggesting....<gasp>....that they are all in on it....that they're all terrorists! Pffft! Don't make me laugh! If we have the kind of "freedom" they have in their despotic countries.....your head will be rolling by your children's feet right now, simply for having the nerve to say what you just did. Laughter is a good way to hide embarrassment....for lack of any sensible response. Well, I am not surprised.

If we eliminate religion from the discussion (which is hard but I'll try not to mention it), here is my take on it: Why do they hate us? Why do they hate freedom? IMO, it all boils down to.....F E A R and E N V Y. "He (Bin Laden) and his sympathizers want to eliminate Western influence." Why do they want to eliminate western influence? Because of its i n f l u e n c e! For instance, he says Iran’s Ayatollah Khomeini, in calling the U.S. the "Great Satan," was being consistent with the Koranic depiction of Satan not as an "imperialist" or "exploiter" but as a seducer, "the insidious tempter who whispers in the hearts of men."{17} – Qtub And Qtub had outlined this "influence" as a S E D U C E R, "the insidious tempter who whispers in the hearts of men." The dictator (substituting the word ISLAM) wants to keep control over his subjects. To accept his decree as almighty law. He fears the loss of control over his people - for freedom and democracy is tempting to a people who had known only oppression. WE ARE WAVING THIS TEMPTATION TO THEIR NOSES SIMPLY BY THE WAY WE LIVE - and global access to the internet only makes it so easy. With this mindset, the Western world and the United States as superpower become to many Muslims the infidel invaders, imperialist bullies who desecrate Islamic states by force. European colonialism, Western imperialism and U. S. policies are frequent Muslim complaints. This is all too convenient. But take note of the word, "superpower." What dictator wouldn't want to have this superpower? Saudi oil wealth funded Wahhabi propagation of their views at home and abroad.{27} Wahhabism affected both Usama bin Ladin and the Taliban.{28} Wahhabism’s pervasive influence troubles Princeton’s Lewis. Imagine, he says, that the Ku Klux Klan or a similar group took control of Texas and its oil and could widely propagate its version of "Christianity" through heavily endowed schools and colleges.{29} This is where indoctrination and brain-washing comes in. "Almost the entire Muslim world is affected by poverty. . . ."{34} Georgetown’s John Esposito sees "weak economies, illiteracy, and high unemployment"{35} in many Muslim nations. Relative deprivation can be psychologically debilitating. If you are poor, some theories argue, and you see others more prosperous, you may feel inferior, trapped or depressed. Reports from the United Nations and the World Bank note that Arab nations fall far behind the West in "job creation, education, technology, and productivity."{36} (There are, of course, exceptions.) When global media bring pictures of lavish Western life, frustration burns and some extremists lash out. One Egyptian playwright described these extremists as "pathologically jealous." He said, "They feel like dwarfs, which is why they search for towers and all those who tower mightily."{37} Feelings of rejection play a part. Many Western societies have been slow to accept Muslims. The father of shoe bomber Richard Reid said of his son, "He was born here in Britain, like I was. It was distressing to be told things like ‘Go home, nigger.’"{38} New York Times foreign affairs columnist Thomas Friedman speaks of a "poverty of dignity" affecting even privileged Muslims. Belief in Islam’s superiority contrasted with economic and military disparity in the context of a repressive regime can engender feelings of humiliation, prompting vengeance against the perceived cause.{39}" And I think this speaks for itself. So here you go, in a nutshell....fear and envy. They are threatened by our superior society! They fear us because we are a threat to their control. They have absolute control over their people. They'll lose that control if their people got a whiff of freedom or democracy. They know that we are vastly superior to them! That their own people do not want to be controlled, that's why they're leaving in droves - to come over to us. They know they cannot keep that grip while the lure of freedom is only getting much stronger.

So what does this have to do with your topic's question? I'm afraid I'm sort of confused here. Actually your statement is somehow agreeing that it is religion - Islamic in this case that's at the root of the problem of hatred, since they (terrorists) are fighting for their god and that they feel we have no respect for their religion? That was stated in jest, Ghostshack. I know you are not afraid of religion. I know you will not be converted. Not without a fight anyway. Now, that was a joke again. No, I don't feel insulted by your statement. So, this topic was a test? It wasn't fairly done though. You should've chosen a different topic....or should've asked a different question. You implied to want to understand about their hatred for us. Which is a very legitimate question - and like you said, how come it was never raised so far in any discussion - for indeed, it makes a very good topic for discussion. Too bad, this quite refreshing topic got wasted - since obviously it was not really the discussion you were aiming for. You got me hooked, I guess. The very subject of your test indeed makes it impossible not to include religion, for religion is actually at the root of this problem. It always rears its head at every turn....no matter how we try to look at it from a different angle. Not even YOU and KUZADD could keep religion out of it even though you're both trying hard. Like a bad penny, it keeps popping up! Anyway, re-check the article I've posted so maybe you'll see what I mean. It just simply can't be eliminated - that is if you truly want an objective discussion. As for being objective, your purpose for this thread was not concieved in an objective way. So how can we answer and discuss your specific question objectively if we omit a major factor? As for neutrality, I'd say it is you who seems unable to look at things in a neutral way. Being able to state facts and opinions freely without restraint in a discussion that is supposedly looking for explanations is only fair. Your topic is in a "fact-finding" mission, or in a quest for understanding. Being able to look at all facts and opinions presented - whether they be opposed to your own views - is being neutral. Restricting or blocking important facts, is not.

Yah, and you hate them because they are. which is BTW, totally irrational. I see you buy into 'divide and conquer' quite nicely. Do you enjoy the subjugation? We are trying to have a discussion here. Your comment has nothing to do with the discussion at all. It's purely a personal attack. It derails the conversation. And it lowers the standard of this forum. If you've got nothing relevant to add, move aside! oh yes, my words do have alot to do with the discussion, regardless of what you say. Scottsa: "They hate us because we're not Islamic." he played the 'religion' card right off the bat, did you miss it? or gloss over it? Clearly he hates them because they are that religion, for one reason. Because they are NOT like us (white christian) it's not a personal attack so , since you had nothing to add, but to "attack" my opinion, maybe you should "move aside"? Scott was answering Ghostshack's question, "why do terrorists hate us! Of course answers will pertain to "them" and "us!" So Scott mentioned religion! Whether religion is a part of it or not. So what? Are you here to censor everybody? Are you here to intimidate people from expressing their views? Who gave you this license? Your response was to launch into a personal attack! I had given my contribution to this discussion - which I find very interesting, as a matter of fact - that's why I resent your irrelevant and offensive intrusion! You seem bent to turn this particular discussion into one of many same-old threads of bigotry against Muslims - which is quite boring already! Perhaps Greg should be invited to come to this particular thread....and let him be the one to decide!

Well, aren't we being monitored already? Everytime you use that bank machine? Everytime you use your plastic cards? How about those cameras watching traffic? Cameras they want to put on streets in Toronto? Everytime you buy something on-line. The gun registry! What else?