Goddess

There's probably a fatwa out on me right now. Haha

Yes, I noticed that because the personal attacks start when people are out of debate: FYI I've always been in the West. And no, I don't feel that I should make their choices because I'm smarter than them. I'm smarter then them because I actually got off my ass and researched my former religion and all it's doctrines and beliefs and then....... MADE AN INFORMED CHOICE. That is all these women need. Information and Education. Withholding the true nature of hijabs and burquas, romanticising and legitimizing the garments is withholding the information they need to also make an informed choice. This information was withheld from them in their former Islam-ruled countries and here, we withhold it from them out of some kind of misplaced pity or whatever. You know what started me researching my former religion? People calling me out on my bullshit choices. If, after researching the history and purpose of the covers a woman THEN chooses to wear it.....I am in total agreement with her choice to wear it. Because then it will be an informed choice.

I agree with the part about letting women choose. But only to a point. In this case, I think the harmful effects of it outweigh any benefit to letting women "choose" it. It's also people's choice to take fentanyl. But the harmful effects of it outweigh allowing people to make that "choice".

Again, I. Don't. Care. I don't care if it's women promoting it or men promoting it. I don't care if a woman says she "chose" it. Some women "choose" to stay in abusive relationships. No, we can't go in and drag them out of abusive relationships for their own good. But we also don't make it legal to abuse your wife. And we don't accept it as a "different" way of life. It is abuse. Whether the woman stays and is complicit in her own abuse is, as you say, her "choice". I do not have to respect or accept that choice. We're not talking about choosing to eat or not eat something, choosing to drink alcohol or nor drink it. We are talking here about something that is ABUSE OF WOMEN. I do not want to see it promoted in my country. I do not want to see it legitimized in any way. I do not want abuse of women to be paraded around the streets and lauded as, "Ooooo, look at how progressive we are in Canada! We allow women the choice to be abused if they want it!" Just.....No. So much No in that statement.

You seem to agree that it's wrong for men to force women to wear these things. But if it's WOMEN forcing the issue, that makes a difference for you. For me, it doesn't. Whether it's Muslim men or Muslim women promoting hijabs and burquas - makes no difference to me. It doesn't change the meaning of the garments.

No, I don't have to accept 7th century radical Islamist's treatment of women. I really don't.

No. But it is my right to be able to walk around in my country and not have it shoved in my face that women can, at any time, be forced back into the 7th century.

I'm also calling out the idea of it being a choice. The choice is: Wear it or....... a. You will be cursed by Allah as a disobedient woman and go to Hell. b. You can never leave the house or be seen in public. c. Your male/female relatives will honour kill you. d. Your male/female relatives will beat you til you comply. e. You will be ostracized by your community. f. You will not be viewed as marriageable. g. Some combination of the above. Given those choices, I'm not surprised that many women are forced to find some kind of "peace" with themselves and their family and their community, so they say, "Yes, it's my choice to wear it."

And I'm calling your spade a shovel. Just because women participate in their own oppression doesn't make it not oppression.

Exactly. Women have been and continue to be killed for protesting these covers. I just fail to see how promoting the views of radical Islam by pretending these covers have anything at all to do with women's rights and freedoms, supports the Iranian women.

I support them by calling out the true nature of hijabs and burquas. They are not symbols of freedom and women's choice. They are not a part of Islam. And we need to stop pretending they are. They symbolize and publicize a view of women that radical islam wants to promote.

I apologize. I get passionate about this because of my years in a cult that also viewed women in this way. I was born into it, but yes, it was my "choice" to allow myself to be denigrated for many years. Lack of information, lack of education was what made my choice for me. Once I had the correct information, I made an entirely different choice. These women will never be able to stand up with their sisters in Iran or make a different choice for themselves or their daughters, as long as we in the West continue to buy into the lie that hijabs and burquas are wonderful expressions of freedom.

Radical Islam doesn't care whether feminists in the West support the Iranian women or not. What they care about is that Muslim women in the West continue the narrative that the hijab is nothing more than a quaint, exotic and harmless garment, and that it is about "women's choice". That is why the Saudi wahibis are frantically funding Muslims in the West - to get this propaganda out. And Muslim women in the West are happy to spread this propaganda and to fight for radical Islam in the West under the guise of "freedom". Seriously! - how else do you think radical Islamist beliefs are going to spread in the West?, They have to portray it under the umbrella of "freedom" or let's face it - no woman on earth would make the choice to never leave the house unless they are wearing this hideous and odious garment.

You are correct. My apologies. Yes, it's wonderful that women in Iran are fighting this. Where they need support from, though, is not from the West. It's from their Muslim sisters in the West. And unfortunately, Muslims in the West are not behind their sisters in the Middle East.

This whole "choice" thing is bizarre to me in the first place. I can't bleive we in the West are buying into the lie that it is a "choice" and it's about women being free to wear whatever they want. If you see someone who never leaves the house without sporting some kind of Nazi propaganda-wear and you ask about it, they say, "Well, I don't support the ideology, but I am free to wear whatever I want." Would you believe them? I wouldn't believe them any more than I believe that the women who say they don't suport the ideology of radical Islam. Of course they support it! They're wearing its logo!

It's not just a "symbol" of oppression of women. It's a symbol of support of radical Islamist beliefs. Yes. if someone "chooses" to wear it, that is most definitely a choice they can make. My issue is that we do not have to respect that choice. We do not have to cater to it, we do not have to kowtow to it, we do not have to buy into the lie that it is harmless and about "women's choice of dress." It's NONE of those things. It is a public show of support for radical islam. I have no problem being vocal about it, the same as I would be vocal about someone who "chooses" to wear a KKK hood or a Nazi swastika t-shirt. They are all 3 - exactly the same.

Well, sadly, they're not going to get any support from Canada or the West. In Canada, the hijab is a completely innocent article of clothing, viewed as nothing more than an exotic and beautiful cultural/religious garment with no harmful effect on women and girls.

You're absolutely right. There is zero evidence this man did anything wrong. He's the victim here and we should let him go free immediately.

1. You think the study results are invalid. But you present no proof of that. 2. You think the judge should not have mentioned the study in her sentencing. I disagree because she was presiding over a trial in which 150 girls had been molested and who either were too afraid to report or they reported and were ignored. How is that study NOT valid in regard to this situation? 3. You seem much more bothered and upset about a "woman" judge passing sentence on a proven serial rapist/molester than you are bothered by the guy who actually molested over 150 young women. You do understand that the guy ACTUALLY RAPED/MOLESTED 150 young women, right? But here you are more concerned about comments that a "woman" judge made at the sentencing? Makes no sense.

Ahhh, okay. Finally you get to your point. You don't like the judge quoting this study in her sentencing because you don't trust the results of the study/poll. I think it's sort of hair-splitting, because I don't believe her sentence was based on this poll. I think it was based on the evidence presented to her in the courtroom.

Ya, I get that. Other than you, I don't think there's too many people who expect that a study/poll should or does encompass the same kind of "evidence" as what's given at a legal trial.

But you reject the findings of this study/poll. Why would you accept the findings of a similar study/poll done in the same way for men?

I was agreeing with you. ** hands you a cup of coffee **

I imagine for the same reasons Muslims like to distinguish between Sunni, Shia, ISIS, Al Quaeda, etc. They all claim to be following Allah.

I'm leaning toward Christine Eliot too. I don't know much about Caroline Mulroney, but after Trudeau I'm wary of children of past PMs.