Goddess

Here's what Bruce Bawer had to say about "moderates:

Which I never said. Re-writing what I wrote so you can argue, again, I see. Perhaps its you with the reading comprehension problem.

So how come when someone posts a story about a bad Muslim, you jump all over them because one bad Muslim doesn't mean they are all like that, but when you post a story about one good Muslim (your sister) it means they are all good and none of them have ever used the burka or niqab to subjugate women? Which I'm sure, as you know........is untrue. So what is your point? That Islamic societies do NOT subjugate women? I think we all know that is not true, as well. Guess what? Your sister doesn't represent all Muslims any more than an extremist represents all Muslims.

Are you seriously telling us that NO women in Islamic cultures wear burkas and niqabs? Seriously? Your sister and her family don't wear one, so therefore your conclusion is that NO women wear them? That's your argument? You might want to google that......this is just for 1 country - Egypt, since you used that as your basis for saying no women wear it.

I think he should ask his wife which group she would rather live under - Western society or Islamic society where she can never leave the house without wearing a blanket over her entire body and head. You know, since neither one is better than the other, it should be a very difficult choice for her to make. This kind of thinking scares me because I wonder how many other Western men ALSO think it would and should, be no problem for women to live under those circumstances. Women are fucked. Even our Western men won't stick up for us.

I view supporters of appeasing Islamic extremism to be "useful idiots" to Islam. I agree with Mr. Bawer's assessment of why this is: Notice how this mufti's remarks are excused with"Well, he didn't really MEAN that....."

Oh sorry, I forgot to put the source. It's from "While Europe Slept" by Bruce Bawer. I don't agree with his pro-American take on politics but he does put it all together in a nutshell what has happened in Europe, the problems they are facing and how some countries like Norway, Denmark and France are trying to combat extremism after allowing it for so long.

I don't think you know very much about what's going on in Europe. Europe has done everything possible to appease Muslims and it is not working. Like, really really not working. Thus, the recent surge of burka and hijab banning. For instance in France, This is just a little snippet of what's going on in schools. There a lot more going on in the streets, workplaces, and cities of Europe IN ADDITION to this. The inclination to appease Islamic extremists, readiness to "understand" suicide jihadists, acceptance of victim rhetoric from aggressors, and a desperate eagerness to applaud the "good" side of all of this has not saved Europe from Islamic extremism.

Any reputable Islamic scholar will confirm that these garments are not a requirement of Islam. So who requires them? It is the ideology of Islamic extremists. It is the extremists that believe women should not be allowed out of the house without being completely shrouded and in total submission. It's a frightening ideology from a woman's perspective. I'm not really sure that men understand fully what it means to be a woman and see these hideous blobs that this ideology reduces women to. As Dia has pointed out, women's rights in Western society are a fairly recent thing. I for one, would not like to see our society go backwards just to make those who still cling to these barbaric beliefs feel more comfortable with having them.

Well, there you go. The "stated goal" of a niqab ban is not to help women escape oppressive relationships. The goal is to keep Islamic extremism OUT of Canada. If some women are helped by the ban, that is a bonus. If it doesn't help other women, perhaps the problem is not with us, perhaps the problem is that they are Islamic extremists.

You answered your own question. Your question is not asked in sincerity. Your question is asked to supposedly show how stupid we all are for not wanting to tolerate Islamic extremism in our society

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/heron-gate-mass-eviction-expected-canada-180817200106463.html Apparently, being asked to find a new place to live by a 6 month deadline so they can demolish and rebuild your bug-infested, filthy apartments, is worse torture than they endured in Somalia. Oh, and the best part? They are suffering like this because we are a nation of racists:

Oh, come on. I can't tell if you're really asking this question or being deliberately obtuse. There are plenty of things she can do in a Western society. Yes, it is difficult to break free from abusive situations, it is for all women in abusive relationships. It sucks, I agree. Why don't you explain how allowing men the means to do this to women helps women? Take away the man's "club" that he uses to abuse and subjugate and provide her the legal "clubs" to fight her own abuse - the law is on her side, there are many resources she can turn to, she only has to reach out for them.

Because the whole point of the coverings is to isolate them from general society. To make them into non-persons, so they are not seen or heard from. It's baffling to me that any Western woman would defend such a thing.

How are the rights of general society benefited by women in facecoverings? If it's such a great thing for a society, why is it only in Muslim majority countries, where women have little rights? Why do you think the rest of the world aren't jumping on board the "facecoverings for all women outside the home" bandwagon being shoved down the throat of every democratic society? There must be a reason. I've explained many times why I believe Islamic extremism should be curtailed and how it is a detriment to society. You have yet to explain how burkas and niqabs benefit society, other than "It's their right to be extreme and offensive." and "We have to tolerate it, because we have to prove we are a tolerant society." In other words, "Fuck everyone else, Muslim wants and preferences come first." Why is their culture more important than our's? Until you can explain that to me, I will stand by my view that burkas and niqabs have no place in Western society. Since you believe they should have a special place in Western society, we will have to agree to disagree. I see no benefit to allowing Islamic extremism a foothold of any kind in Canada.

We will have to agree to disagree. I don't think the "rights" of a few religious extremists should outweigh the rights of general society.

You compared it to being raped. There's not a lot a woman can do to avoid being raped. There is a lot of things she can do to avoid being confined to her home because of burkas. You have said that we should not be concerned about the number of women in burkas/niqabs because there are so few of them. But on the other hand, you believe that the small number of women who actually "choose" to wear these garments should be given top priority and their right to wear the political symbol of Islamic extremism should come before all other women's rights. Doesn't seem to me that you have much concern for the vastly larger number of women who are forced into it and would like a way out.

Reeeeealllllly stretching there.

I would rather take away a "club" that is commonly used to keep women into submission. There are other things, legally, they can do about being forcibly confined to their homes. Many? Sounds like the majority. Good thing for the men in Egypt that women are required to cover their bruises. Either way, it proves my point. Burkas/niqabs have great potential for abuse and have no place in Western society. Hmmmm.....apparently Egypt has the same concerns about burkas/niqabs as we do here...... Of course it does. That's what I've been saying all along.

I did not say polygamous marriages and burkas/niqabs were the CAUSE of abuse. I said there is greater potential for abuse of women when these things are tolerated. As evidenced by your statement: And you cannot deny that requiring women to be shrouded or else unable to go outside the home, also puts them at greater risk of being abused. That is very obvious from the countries that do it. The only thing confining women to their homes is their own complicity in their abuse.

I don't find it to be an unnecessary law, because of the great potential for abuse. There is substantial evidence that polygamous marriages and burkas/niqabs have great potential for abuse and have been used extensively to abuse women. Maybe a law that restricts burka/niqab and hijab to a certain age group would be a compromise......when I see little girls - children - all shrouded up, unable to play with their peers.....it's abuse, IMO.

Just as the man has appointed himself as the parent of the woman, the one who knows best, who has the right and the responsibility to direct her behavior, so have we relegated women to a child-like state, in which we know what is best for her and will impose that on her, regardless of her preferences or situation. We've banned polygamous marriage, regardless of women's personal preferences or situations, or even if they say they "chose" it.

Telling women, whether they choose to cover their face or are required to by their family, that we will not tolerate them on our streets is not a very good model of either tolerance or belief in gender equality, in my opinion. (Quotes not working for me again. Hmmmm....) Perhaps that is the problem - you think we would be telling these women that THEY are "not welcome" on our streets. And that is false. They are VERY welcome on our streets. Come have a cup of coffee with us! Come bring your kid to playschool and visit the other moms! Come say hello to us in the grocery store! What is not welcome is the promotion of extreme and harmful political and religious beliefs that openly thumb their nose at our values. Again, I'm not FOR banning the burka, per se, but I am saying that it's the Islamist beliefs and conduct and the promotion of these that are not welcome, not they themselves. I disagree with you that we have to tolerate intolerance. And I disagree with you on another point - anyone who deliberately puts an actual physical curtain between themselves and society, does not get to whine about feeling "not welcome" in a society where such a thing is offensive to the majority.

And I have pointed out (although you refuse to read it) that the burka/niqab/hijab discussion should involve much more than just "fear and dislike" of them. That is a simplification with an insinuation of Islamophobia thrown in, designed to shut down the discussion. I have also tried to present my views fairly and reasonably. It's just frustrating when the discussion gets shut down with name-calling and and the whole thing is dismissed with "You're all a bunch of Islamophobes, that's the only reason you dislike burkas." or "We have to allow this as Canadians because one of our values is tolerance." or "They choose to wear it. End of story." We have other values which need to be respected by immigrants, as well.

Excuse me, but you flat out stated that the only reason people would be against burkas is fear and dislike. You have repeatedly (in the past) labeled anyone who disagrees with you a racist and Islamophobe. If this has changed for you, then I apologize. I'm going by your past comments.