dialamah

Damage to any process is usually done by ignorance, rather than maliciousness.

Really? Here we are, suggesting you consider the thoughts, feelings and desires of people who actually live in these countries you claim are so backward, and you cannot do it. I am aware of the problems in these countries, and perhaps if I ran across someone who was reasonable in their discussion, you'd hear some of that from me. But really, when someone simply insists an entire group of people are backward savages and refuses to even consider that there are a variety of people, beliefs and practices within that group - well, there is no chance of reasonsed discussion. Btw, women are raped and gang-raped in Canada on a regular basis as well. Maybe you need to start ranting about men who rape, and not just Muslims.

I would think that in countries where the ruling class is brown and Muslim, than that would be the "privileged" class. In our country, it's white Christians, although we are much less religious than Muslim countries over all so it's probably safe to say "Whites" and leave out the Christian part. And I don't know how accurate that article is. Yes, Islamic countries have some work to do to meet the definition of "freedom" as practiced in the West - but some of them are at least tackling it. I know Sisi gets pretty short shrift amongst many in the West, but from my sister and brother-in-laws POV, he's done a lot towards pursuing a more "Westernized" society. My brother-in-law considers Trudeau and Sisi alike in a lot of ways, so perhaps that gives you an idea of how 'progressive' Sisi is perceived to be.

Thanks for that reminder, BG. Sometimes I do forget that the people here do not represent all Conservatives.

Legalizing pot, increasing social security, changing C-51.

The punishment of stoning isn't found in the Qu'ran, but lashing is. Stoning is a punishment found in the bible and practiced by Jews for a very long time; the current Islamic practice closely follows the old Jewish one. So why do some Muslims believe it's ok to stone people, but most Christians don't? Because people tend to follow what the *leaders* of their religions teach, rather than what is in the actual texts they claim to follow. Muslims use the Hadiths to 'interpret' the Qu'ran, and that's where the support for stoning is. Christians have had a number of leaders who have interpreted the bible in various ways, but most will point to Jesus as being the one who eliminated stoning (among other things) - although Christians will still use it to kill people, as did John Thomas in 2011, when he killed Murray Seidman for making advances toward him. Islam also teaches that a man should love and care for his wife and a father should love and care for his daughter; part of that love and care is to protect her from other men. I agree that the segregation they employ is overkill, but the motivation is not a lot different from a Christian man who insists that his wife/daughter dress modestly and avoid certain activities and places so that they will not be seen as 'easy' or 'loose' or 'asking for it'. In any case, the point is that regardless of what the religious texts say, people reinterpret it suit themselves. Sometimes the changes result in more humane actions such as eliminating stoning, and sometimes not - such as condoning stoning. You choose to believe the worst of Islam and you assume that women in Islam experience lives of unmitigated misery, and you are wrong. It is certainly more proscribed than in Western countries, and women do chafe under it's limits - but so did Christian women chafe under similar limitations not so long ago. Merely 60 years ago, for example, my mother could not get birth control without my father's permission. In the Middle East, things are changing - slowly - for the better, if female autonomy is the criteria. Do not let your assumptions blind you to that fact, or the fact that it wasn't so long ago that much of Christianity looked much like Islam does today.

Because we progressives aren't close-minded and unable to see anything except from our own point-of-view, about which we are convinced we are right, regardless of what the evidence says. Hope that helped clarify things for you.

And there goes an assumption I had that our healthcare system must be better, by default. I don't think there is free healthcare in Egypt, so that is one area where I think my sister might be better off in Canada, especially as she gets older since the family she married into isn't wealthy.

The only area where I think people in third world countries (including Muslim countries) would be most likely better off in Western countries, especially Canada, is where health care is concerned, at least for the poorer people. Beyond that, I cannot assume that anything we can offer them here is worth the trade-off of what they enjoy in their own country. For instance, in Egypt, University is free. Two of the young women in my sister's adopted family have gone through university, even though their families are not wealthy and the same is expected for the younger kids. Can kids in Canada expect the same? Both of the women I talked about were born/raised in Canada. While in Canada, both look, act and speak as Canadians and one even dresses in what Canadian Christians would consider an 'immodest' style. While in their preferred Muslim countries, both women adjust their dress to fit the social expectations of their adopted country, albeit on the more Westernized side. Both recognize the patriarchy of their countries, but neither feels it is so much of an impediment to living their life as they see fit. They love those countries for whatever it is that is important to them. Certainly there are women (and men) who are, as you say, indoctrinated and resigned to their fate. However, the same is true of women in Canada who have been raised in the more fundamentalist and evangelical Christian churches. I have a friend who has recently escaped the shackles of her Christian church; she talks a lot about how the gender roles of women was continually reinforced - subject to husband, take care of kids/house, present a certain 'image' so that the Christian faith would not come into disrepute. Deviation from those roles resulted in censure. She may not have worn a headscarf and long dresses, but she was under similar constraints and expectations as are women in Muslim countries.

Depends on your criteria. My sister quite likes her life in Egypt, and would prefer to remain there than return to Canada, even as she acknowledges the difficulties. Another woman I know spent several years in Iran, and is now torn between remaining in Canada near her mother, or returning to Iran, which she loves. Both of these women have experienced the freedom Canadian/Western women enjoy, and are willing to trade that for whatever it is they enjoy about the Middle East. They are not the only women I know who have made that choice, they are just the two I am most familiar with. You may not think they are better off, but they clearly disagree.

I fail to see why that would be a problem. Perhaps no whites in the world, anywhere, would mean a better world? Maybe it would be less warlike, more just, smarter, more ethical? Maybe whites are the reason why the world is such a terrible place for so very many other people, and animals. Maybe white people are the true spawn of the devil, and we're the the ones who need to be cleansed from the earth. I mean, you never know right? Could be us that's the problem.

Egypt agrees with you: Although apparently this is not really an Islamic requirement: More babies for bigger armies. Hmmm .......

Even an out-of-his-mind stoned Conservative is better than a stone-cold sober Liberal.

For those of you who doubt that someone would NOT object to being called a bigot: http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/25285-islamophobia-in-canada/page-92#entry1123907 http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/25285-islamophobia-in-canada/page-93#entry1123917

Good to know, thanks.

I think it would be more useful to show those people a better way. However, if there was a way of accurately identifying those who would be violent in pursuit of their beliefs, I would think that a reasonable criteria to deny entry into Canada. Of course, I'd also like to see those who were born in Canada who had a tendency to violence, without any addiction issues, adequately screened for and exported somewhere. Probably run afoul of all kinds of human rights things, though.

Moronic comment. I was hoping for better from you, but as you haven't read the links and have apparently decided not to continue a reasoned conversation, I'll also withdraw. .

Yes, things are bad in Egypt, but are they a lot better in Canada? You aren't a woman, so you probably have no clue exactly what women experience from men in this country. For example: 80% of women in Canada have experienced sexual harassment on the street. In Egypt, sexual harassment is illegal; in Canada, it is not. Yup FGM is a problem in Egypt, and it's also illegal. People are working to eliminate the practice, and it's working: In any case, the root cause of sexual violence against women in Western countries is that we have descended from a misogynistic and patriarchal religion called "Christianity" and it takes a very long time for these social attitudes to change. In the ME, they are still in the midst of shedding the misogyny and patriarchy that has been intrinsic to Islam. We are further along in this path then they are, but we are not "better" than they are. And none of this negates the fact that my sister complains more about the infrastructure in Egypt, than sexual harassment. It may well be that she accepts it as part of living there, but there are advantages that she feels are lacking in Canada - for instance, the way in which families maintain close ties and help each other; there is no social safety net to speak of, so children and elderly are cared for by their family instead of the state. Or that there is much less concern about 'image' among young women in Egypt - anorexia and similar issues are not as common as they are here. Marriages - even the polygamous ones - tend to last for life, something many Western conservatives would like to see here.

Caution is probably not a strong enough term; afraid is closer, but I was attempting to avoid offending the more conservative among us. Did you read the links? It's pretty interesting information. I daresay there are many among us (perhaps most?) who are more middle-of-the-way between being overly fearful and overly courageous, but at least these studies help me to understand why something like refugees in Canada appears to cause some people to practically crap their drawers, while others see it as an opportunity to help the less fortunate in the world.

It seems there's a difference in brain function between people who are afraid and those who are not. You could spend 24 hours a day here, and still not be afraid if you have the 'liberal' brain (not in the political sense), and be very afraid even if you spent less than an hour a week here if you had the 'conservative' (not in the political sense) brain. I've no doubt these two types of people provided a balance between exploration and growth and safety and caution throughout history, but now it just seems too many conservative types are willing to impose their 'caution' on everyone else. Thus ISIS and similar, and growing right-wing Christianity in the States (and probably Canada too, but I don't see as much media on that). http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/calling-truce-political-wars/ http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/new-studies-show-liberals-and-conservatives-have-different-brain-structures

I fear that kind of war as well. Even if Trump thinks bombing ISIS out of existence is feasible, I do not. I don't think violence is the way to fight ideology, but sadly there are too many people who do on both sides. It seems to me that the majority of people, regardless of their religion (or lack thereof) perceive common values and try to focus on them. It seems to be the fanatical minority that lead us to conflict and war. It's very sad, to me, because beneath the skin color, the locale in which we live, the beliefs we have, we all love, fear and yearn the same I think.

He has a lot more credibility than you do. We should all be so lucky.

I'm a woman, as is my sister who has lived there for more than a decade. Her major complaint about Egypt is infrastructure, not sexism.

Muslim woman helps Christians in Middle East. Muslim doctor loses home/practice after saving Christian Christians burn Muslims