Leader Circle

newbie, This is by far, the most productive and honest thing you have posted here and for once I agree with you. Keep it up, it looks very good on you!!!

I think this is a fair conclusion based on the evidence presented, however, it does raise the question of how a 'party' takes responsibility. Should the Liberal party president resign? Keep in mind that all Canadian political parties maintain a formal seperation between their fund raising arms and the politicians in office (it has been like this since the last party funding scandal during MacKenzie-King's time). That means that the party leaders are not technically responsible for mistakes made by the party executive.That said, I am already on the record saying that it is time for the Liberals to go - give Harper his chance. If he goes 'Bush' on us we can boot him out soon enough. If he lives up even 1/2 of his promises he could change the country for the better. However, I still defend Martin because I believe he did not participate in this fraud and choose to ignore rumors because he thought the best way to clean up any mess was to push Chretian out as quickly as possible. It is easy to say now that he should have torpedoed his political career by blowing the whistle immediately, however, I don't believe anyone except the party executives in Quebec really understood the depraved nature of the kickback scheme. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well said Spar!

Completely untrue. Again completely untrue. Overhead in the private sector is virtually without exception higher then the public sector. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Your proof of these untruths is pretty accurate, hard job to not believe you Yaro!!

Just worth seeing it again....brings a smile to my face! Thanks Err!

You didn't wear your Martin costume because the kids had no money to steal? They always have their unicef boxes to clean out!!!

Our Walmart & Zellers here are exact opposite of yours. Walmart has no intelligent life on their payroll, there store is jampacked with stuff, narrow aisles, always full to the brim(probably more than a fire code would accept), long waits for check-out, and generally trashy stuff. Zellers has an older based staff, very friendly and somewhat knowledgable, roomy aisles, comparative prices, shorter check-out lines, fewer shoppers(because most are at Walmart), but they still have trashy merchandise too!!! I refuse to shop at Walmart, although Zellers has no cell service and my business is dependant on my cell phone. I only buy kitty litter or cleaning stuff at Zellers, but it is an ok experience versus a nut show at Walmart. I like Sears, but it is hard to get the cheap stuff there. They don't compete in prices at all. The only way they'll survive is in bigger cities where money isn't so much a factor.

I wonder if maybe Martin was clear of all this sponsorship stuff anyway, even though he was Minister of Finance. Here's my thought on this. Martin & Chretien were fierce competitors in the leadership race to replace Turner. Chretien was dead against NAFTA and Martin supported it. Chretien was against the Meech Lake Accord and Martin supported it. They have always been at odds and played different sides of the same party. Maybe Chretien is fully to blame here, because Martin was not welcome on the inner circle Chretien stuff?? My problem with this theory is: Why did Chretien make him Minister of Finance if he did not consider Martin a friend or inner circle buddy???? Martin has obviously had some stroke with the Liberals, dating back a long ways. Was that enough to get a high posting? Or was he in on the whole shebang and played his part in the Chretien Mafia? Can some of the Liberal supporters here shed some light on this? I got a feeling Martin will be clean, much to my right-sided disappointment.(Sort of)

While my gut reaction is the same as yours wellandboy, I begrudginly have to defend the early release of the report. The early release is to the office of the PM, not to Martin or the Liberal Party...it just so happens that the current PM is a Liberal (and potentially to be criticized personally in the report)...bad luck I suppose. If the last election had resulted in a Conservative minority, I suspect very few would argue that the PM should not get an advanced look at the report. Keep in mind that there are major potential consequences for the Canadian economy and international reputation that hinge on the findings of this report. In international circles, if the Canadian government looks debilitated, confused, or disorganized by the Gomery report (or any such report) and there is no semblance of preparedness to answer tough questions about what the report means, we could be yet to experience the worst harm of ADSCAM. Internally, the Canadian people know enough about what went on that they will not be snowed by spin doctors. Gomery's report is expected to call it like it is, and if he is unambiguous, it leaves little room for spinning anyway. I am certainly not saying this from the viewpoint of an apologist, just recognizing that a government prepared for intense scrutiny from outside our borders is much better than a bunch of surprised goofs making knee-jerk reactions and on-camera comments for the world to see. FTA Lawyer <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think you nailed it there FTA. If it implicates Martin, Canada is going to be very embarassed on the world stage. Even though I'd like nothing more than Martin's Liberals to be destroyed by it, we need to save some face internationally. We don't need to be a bigger joke than we already are. In all honesty, I think we need Martin to be left out of the report. It would damage our economy more than we know. It is quite unfair that they get an early viewing of this, but as you say, they are in power and it should go to the PMO. I hope we all don't lose out because of a screw up by a few tainted Liberals. Eureka should love this post by me!!! Yes Eureka, I said a few tainted Libs!!!

He did not understand, so that makes it all ok! Back to Trudeau-mania! He was a Liberal screw up and there's no getting around that! Kinda like the one we have in Ottawa right now!

Thankfully, there's someone looking out for the people of the province... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Oh MY! Thank the Lord for the NDP. Oops most NDP being anti-God, that would be contradictory!! The world is a better place because of 2 NDP MP's! LOL

WTF are you talking about? I agree with what Argus wrote. Does that help you any? WHY I even respond to you is beyond me!

This, of course, is nonsense. What have the Liberals brought us? Cutbacks in health care at the federal level, massive tax increases at the provincial level. No improvement in services of any kind. Bigger government, bigger bureacracy, corruption, dishonesty and lies - less services. It wasn't the tories who made it almost impossible to collect UIC even while increasing UIC payments to the point it became a major tax grab. Now I have to pay a special "health premium" at the provincial level for the same lousy health care services, even as the provincial Liberals drastically increase spending in every conceivable area. Ontario... I know about that... Mike Harris, our last Tory premiere 1. Mike Harris cut taxes ...big time... by $14 billion dollars. - They cut hospital services to pay for it - They made other medical services "pay for", to pay for their tax cut. - They cut education funding to pay for it - They cut welfare to pay for it. - They cut enviromental protection to pay for it. - They moved social services to the municipal budgets so there was more for their tax cut. 2. Mike Harris's "tax break" (for the wealthy only, as it turned out) was still $6 Billion greater than their cuts.... - They left a deficit of $6 Billion because of their tax cuts. 4. Ontario gives Harris the boot ... But the damage was not all done yet folks..... 5. We got a Liberal Conservative government in Ontario... Well... a Liberal one that refused to roll back the tax breaks for the wealthy, because apparently they are Conservatives in sheep's clothing. - They found that they could apply a "health premium", that would be paid for mostly by the poor and middle classes. - The cost of basic necessities like electricity have gone way up because the Conservatives sold off most of our electricity generation capabilities to cover some of the deficit they created. - Our property taxes have gone way up to cover the cost of social services, moved out of the provincial budget's jurisdition and into the municipal budget.... So the Tory Tax cuts have actually raised taxes for the poor and middle classes, and dropped them for the affluent... True to Tory policy. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks for the bold, otherwise we could not have read it. Can you make your letters larger for effect?

I know a lot of people with just this sentiment... They live in semi-affluent neighbourhoods, wear nice-looking suits, and always have big blue signs on their lawns come election time. I think their, (and your) sentiments extend a little further than what is audibly uttered. The big underlying theme appears to be "When I make it big, Conservative policies are going to be the ones that will really benefit me..." The big catch in all of this, is that the existing right-wing policies of the Conservatives will help to prevent you from ever getting to the space where Conservative policies will help you. This, of course, is nonsense. What have the Liberals brought us? Cutbacks in health care at the federal level, massive tax increases at the provincial level. No improvement in services of any kind. Bigger government, bigger bureacracy, corruption, dishonesty and lies - less services. It wasn't the tories who made it almost impossible to collect UIC even while increasing UIC payments to the point it became a major tax grab. Now I have to pay a special "health premium" at the provincial level for the same lousy health care services, even as the provincial Liberals drastically increase spending in every conceivable area. And what would the NDP do? Double my taxes, give it all to the public sector unions, then start regulating everything I do but breath. "Oh, you can't do that, you can't say that, you can't watch that, you can't read that, you can't think that. It's not politically correct!" I'm one of those who doesn't need help. That doesn't mean I'm rich. It means I'm okay. I manage to support myself. That, no doubt, is your idea of "the affluent few". I'm white, straight and middle class. The NDP despises me and all the others like me. Given the chance they'd take the money I work so hard for and distribute it to the lazy bums on welfare who dropped out of school to do drugs, and to every ethnic, racial, sexual, feminist and left wing wacko lobby group that holds out its hands. The only thing I want from the government is to leave me the hell alone. And I sure won't get that from the shrill, self-righteous big brother busybodies of the left, none of whom have succeded at anything, but all of whom are certain they know best how I should live my life. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Very well put Argus!!!! It covers exactly how I feel!

That is F*cking pathetic! She is supposed to be a leader in Canada and makes a complete ass of herself! It's makes me sick that our tax dollars pay that idiot!!! (Thanks for bringing that up August) She needs to be shot with a ball of her own shit! We need to clean up Ottawa! Get rid of all this dead weight!

If you say the sky is blue we have one poster here who is bound and determined to say it's purple. Pretty much a TROLL, who likes to use big bold letters alot. What an annoying piece of...... Oh well, can't do much about him, except give him the troll ignore!!

I'm not sure I completely agree with this. I recall a documentary a few years back detailing what was happening with government payments going to some reserves. It pointed out that in a lot of cases (most??? all???) the government gives money to the reserves, which is then allocated according to the governing body on each reserve. Many of these refused a government audit. Allegations were made, by some members, of blackmail wherein people were told that if they vote for the right guy, they get their house improved, and threatened about "consequences" which may transpire if they vote for the wrong guy. It pointed out several reserves where the chief and staff had incredibly luxurious homes, and took wonderful trips to Vegas, etc, while other band members on the same reserves were living in huts without indoor plumbing facilities. Is this a similar case??? I don't know, and so cannot point a finger at either the government, or the reserve chief/staff. One thing is certain; you don't take drinking water from a spot that is downstream from where you dump your sewage. That's simply common sense. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think this is the case on many reserves in Canada. There still exists a dictatorship on many of these reserves. The chief and his cohorts have the cash, while the rest tend to suffer. Corruption on reserves is nothing new. As far as this reserve, they seemed to have screwed the pooch on their outdated water & sewage systems, but whose fault is it? Did they have no government cash? Or did the chief have the cash, but not care?? They have somewhat of a distinct society on reserves today and the only time they look to the government of Canada is when they need a hand out. Noone from the Liberal government has ever cared to do anything about any of this. In the interest of human rights, I guess we should keep feeding them money and not expect them to be accountable for the way they spend the money!! (I am thinking from the left side now!)

Economic Left/Right: 6.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 4.26 I'm over with ole Maggie Thatcher. Not sure if that is a good thing or not. George Bush & Tony Blair too. Even Paul Martin is on the upper right. Not as far as some. No surprise!

Nah Newbie is a Liberal loving kinda poster. He would defend the Liberals if Martin took money right from his pocket. Blindly following a moron and his merry group of thieves. It baffles the mind!

My point was, I could write the same thing about any party and stupid people would take it as fact, when really it is trash, written by some lacky, with nothing better to do. It is worse than Canada's mainstream media.

Same old BC Communist bullshit. None of that shit describes anything that remotely sounds conservative. This website sound like a Jehovah Witness website or a Mormon website. I could put up a definition for moron, but I may offend some. This is Complete & total GARBAGE! You're wasting you time clicking the link!!!

I think they had the opportunity to do just that, her name was Belinda Stronach.... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Edited because of the ignorant remark I made about you for making such a silly suggestion. I assume you were joking??? I hope so anyway. She has never brought anything to anyone's table in the way of ideas or policies. She is a liability to anyone she is riding with and a waste of taxpayers money!

He stole a ring. he admitted to stealing it. He turned it over and himself in. He pled guilty, and was given a conditional discharge. He was sentenced to a year's probation and 100 hours of community service, but will not have a criminal record, a sentence the Crown described as "appropriate". Now, if the voters decide that whole business is important enough to make him a bad choice for MP, they can cast their ballots accordingly. And while I may personally not see the wisdom in making a comeback so soon after stepping down, I really don't see what the big frigging deal is. I'll say this much, though: were Svend, say, a straight membe rof the Conservative party, you'd not be hearing a peep from the usual suspects here about his behaviour. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You wouldn't have to wait for us to comment on that were he a Conservative hopeful, because it would be SPLATTERED all over the news every 15 minutes!!! Instead, I had to hear of this from here, hardly a word on the news, except...... "The heartfelt return of a sorrowful, abused, downtrodden, homosexual and his trials and tribulations of being a gay man in such a critical country, trying to make his way in the political world!" This is not actually a news headline, but I had you all thinking!!!! If it were a Conservative MP, the headline would be: "Conservative Crook back trying to steal from Canada again!" Good ole unbiased media we have!

Very soon I suspect! If you think he deserves a second chance Plus...why not let Karla Homolka run for office, after all, if she is properly rehabilitated, she is ok to run, right? Let me quote you plusgood: "I think people need to be really careful about how they discuss mental illness. Many people suffer from it, and many people with appropriate help can live relatively normal lives. So, it's not a question of fearing whether someone with mental illness will be in Parliament, it's a question of whether this person has received the correct level of help, something I think he has." Now.... let's go back to your discussion. I know these two are at different ends of the spectrum, but if we are already forgiving, why not go a little further? Would you want Karla living next to you? I wouldn't. That is also why I don't want Svend in parliment. Damaged goods!

How does it impact lower income people more than the rich? Lower income people spend proportionately more of their income on food and rent, which are GST exempt. At any rate, the thread debating the merits of the GST should be easy enough to find if one wishes to review the arguments made there. Business pays no GST.... The wealthy can portray a large percentage of their expenditures as business expenses, and hence pay no GST on it.... The middle and lower income earners do not have the convenient vehicles of tax avoidance provided to the rich. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Businesses pay GST, If you collect more GST than you pay out, you pay GST! This write off dream you have is not that easy. The government has learned to stick it to businesses, just not their big business buddies! That will all come crashing down, now that these large Ontario firms cannot sink all their cash they used to into support for the Liberals, in return for some good sponsorship dollars!!!! Try getting some facts before you put it in print!! I know that is a tough stretch for one of "your" kind! You could go to work for the Toronto star!

Is it not true that he gets places because he is "openly gay"??? It's not like he is the first either! My only point was, he is a proven thief, mentally unstable(or at least chemically dependant). Why would ANYONE want to give this guy a second chance? Are you surprised? Also, that email about the politicians and their police records is from the States. I think it was never based on any facts, just sounded good!