Where are all the fathers - gun violence in Toronto

[Keepitsimple]

It goes on and on in Toronto. Year after year, the faces of murderers and their victims are primarily black - even though the Black community represents a relatively small minority. And with the publicity surrounding most deaths, the absence of grieving fathers is evident to all. As is the all too frequent references to "father of 5" and "father of 7". With several recent shootings, there has again been a call for inquests, reviews, studies and government action.....but no one dares to face the real problem:

Following is a sermon from Pastor Don Meredith, a Black Toronto preacher who is also president of the GTA faith alliance. I regret that the original source story (which dates to 2005, the "summer of the gun") is no longer available on the internet but I was so moved with his sincerity that I saved it.

At the funeral of Amon Beckles last weekend, a Jamaican-Canadian minister named Don Meredith got up before the despairing congregation and said what rarely gets said out loud in the black community — at least when white media are present.

"I say to our parents, be parents. I will not candy-coat it: You need to teach your young women to be ladies. You need to teach your young men to be men."

Meredith wasn't referring only to the fact that someone had shot Beckles the week before at the funeral of his best friend, also a gun victim, adding to the year's mind-searing litany of senseless deaths — 48, 49, and counting — involving the city's black youth.

He was also taking aim at the fact that Beckles, at just 18, was the father of an 18-month-old child. Or, rather, had "fathered" a child when he was only 16, maybe 15, then gone about his life.

And that somehow that was now acceptable in a part of the black community.

"I could have talked about parents taking responsibility for their kids instead of buying them $300 running shoes," Meredith says a few days later. "I could have been a lot more graphic about how you don't have to profile us, we profile ourselves. But it was a funeral."

What he'd like to have said — and intends to say again and again to black leaders and followers in the weeks and months ahead — is this: Yes, there is racism out there, and over-policing, and poverty, YES. But it's time for parents to turn the mirror around and face up to their part in what has become a crisis.

"We have to stop blaming others and admit our community has a huge problem," he says. "There is a lack of core values in parenting. There is an absence of fathers. They're in jail or they're dead, or they're out there — and useless."

In some quarters, that's called washing dirty laundry in public and the reverend is way out of line. He doesn't see it that way: "We have got to talk about this because it's affecting all of us."

"We're trying to get to them so that it doesn't keep happening, generation after generation of single mothers not teaching their daughters that if they have a baby, their opportunities in life diminish.

Instead, they're raising girls with "low self-esteem and self-image," he says: Girls who get "a false sense of love" from boyfriends who want, out of some warped, who-knows-why notion of machismo, to be a "baby father." And then walk away.

"But how do you pass on, as a parent, what you were not taught yourself?" There is the problem, says Wendell Gibbs, assistant pastor of Scarborough's Heron Park Baptist Church. But it can done, he adds. It has to be done.

He and Meredith were among a group of church leaders who met privately yesterday with Mayor David Miller. Gibbs likely told the mayor about his own experience growing up fatherless in Trinidad.

"My father had four or five kids with different women and twins with my mum. I never saw him, so I really had no dad. My mum gave me my values. When the time came, I could easily have gone the same way as him. But I made the conscious decision not to do that. I tell men that they can break the norm. I did."

In parts of the Caribbean, there is a casual attitude to fathering children, households of inter-generational women and grandmothers in their 30s. Now it's happening here, he says.

"I tell people, `You're not West Indian anymore, you are now Canadian.'"

Gibbs may never have had a role model, but says he painstakingly learned to parent his own two children, now 9 and 11. "They know who they are. They respect their family, respect authority and know how to conduct themselves."

With Ottawa and the city allocating $50 million to a "strategy" to fight black-on-black violence, Gibbs argues that more youth programs, though predictable, are not the solution. What's really needed is something both more complex and more basic, he says: the community itself reconnecting to the idea of family — as in mother, father, children. Rules and respect.

If that means more preachers leaving the "comfort zone" of their far-from-full churches for the troubled streets and stressed-out homes in certain key areas, Gibbs is all for it: "My neighbour's child is my child. I care about the well-being of the next generation."

He knows, however, what they're up against.

"We want to start teaching parenting, but when we say that, people don't want to hear it. They want to point the finger, lay blame. Sure, there are bad cops, just like there are bad journalists, bad whatever. But forget it.

"There are kids out there walking around at midnight and we don't care; kids with guns, and mothers who know who they are. We have to start taking responsibility for that."

It concerns him when he sees "teenage girls with two, three children by different fathers who keep getting better public housing because welfare gives in to them, instead of working things out with the parents. That is a problem for society."

The phenomenon is a hot-button issue with Meredith as well: "Girls who leave home at 16 and then get pregnant are given housing. They say to each other `Hey, I got this place,' and the word spreads."

However well-meaning, government is contributing to the problem, he says. That kind of accommodation, in both senses, has to end.

"If we don't start rebuilding our own family structure," he says bluntly, "we are lost."

[ScottSA]

Unfortunately the breakup of the heterosexual nuclear family and the resultant absence of fathers...probably the biggest and least attended factor in the development of delinquency, is a minefield of political correctness. The first thing to fired at it is mockery of Ozzie and Harriet and Beaver Cleaver, followed shortly by the assertion that it never existed except as an ideal, and finally by shrill accusations of "mysogyny" and "patriarchy." The ideal family now is...well, there isn't one...everyone and their dog (well, not quite yet the dog, but it's coming) has a different notion of what the "family" is, except kids, who in huge numbers lack father figures. It's really time we started taking honest looks at what kids need. State-sponsored childcare" is not it. Homosexual marriage is not it. They need a real family with a mother figure AND a father figure.

[Mad_Michael]

What the murder statistics don't tell you is that 2/3 of all gun murders in Toronto over the last half-dozen years have involved a Jamacian immigrant with gang-connections as either the shooter or the victim (usually both).

The issue here is not about a 'lack of fathers' - that is a moralistic argument favoured by those with ideological axes to grind.

If you want to face the issue, face the issue according to the core facts and the core facts indicate that we have an immigration propblem and a gang problem here. Bleating on about a lack of fathers makes your comments as relevant to this topic as Pat Robertson.

[ScottSA]

What the murder statistics don't tell you is that 2/3 of all gun murders in Toronto over the last half-dozen years have involved a Jamacian immigrant with gang-connections as either the shooter or the victim (usually both).

The issue here is not about a 'lack of fathers' - that is a moralistic argument favoured by those with ideological axes to grind.

If you want to face the issue, face the issue according to the core facts and the core facts indicate that we have an immigration propblem and a gang problem here. Bleating on about a lack of fathers makes your comments as relevant to this topic as Pat Robertson.

And bleating on about Blacks and guns is as relevant as the KKK. Bloviated twits ought to know, if they are going to trot out race as a causal factor for problems, that in this particular case, culture plays a much greater part in creating the cause...in Jamaica unwed pregnancy is pandemic and involved fathers are few and far between. Look it up. In the meantime, thanks for strengthening my case.

[Drea]

Unfortunately the breakup of the heterosexual nuclear family and the resultant absence of fathers...probably the biggest and least attended factor in the development of delinquency, is a minefield of political correctness. The first thing to fired at it is mockery of Ozzie and Harriet and Beaver Cleaver, followed shortly by the assertion that it never existed except as an ideal, and finally by shrill accusations of "mysogyny" and "patriarchy." The ideal family now is...well, there isn't one...everyone and their dog (well, not quite yet the dog, but it's coming) has a different notion of what the "family" is, except kids, who in huge numbers lack father figures. It's really time we started taking honest looks at what kids need. State-sponsored childcare" is not it. Homosexual marriage is not it. They need a real family with a mother figure AND a father figure.

When it comes to family, I agree Scott.

Whether or not gays marry is irrelevant tho.

What's relevant is the fathers are missing, they are not in the child's life.

Now, sometimes this is the fault of the father, but many times it is the fault of the mother. She either doesn't know who he is or doesn't care.

Women need to realize that in order to raise a wellrounded kid they need the influence of both parents. That being said, I left my son's father and raised him on my own for seven years. I've since met a wonderful man who is a great father.

Single moms out there -- LISTEN UP! -- someday your little baby boy is going to need a dad (he's fine now, he's only 3) and you had better start looking for someone appropriate NOW so he can bond with him BEFORE he becomes a teen and his peers overtake your motherly influence. (My kid has just become a teen and is doing what comes naturally -- he is pulling away from his mother)

Best he have a good man to talk to than go on his own with no base.

THAT! from the feminazi b*tch -- amazing innit Scotty.

[M.Dancer]

I Agree it's a cultural thing, It's like the whole era of feminism and male consciousness raising of the 60s passed by the west indies and didn't even say hello.

It is the feminists nightmare. Women are objectified and found to be (by the males) without long term value. Women internalize their role and joust top see whiuch is more whore like than her peers. And the result is that children have children of their own and fathers are gone looking for morfe bitches and whores because that's what gangsters and pimps do.

And this culture which is self evidently destructive is not only tolerated it is lauded in the mainstream (urban) media whose bankrollers are the very lucky and very few men (and even fewer women) who are also young urban black youth.

[August1991]

And with the publicity surrounding most deaths, the absence of grieving fathers is evident to all.

Where are the fathers?

Unfortunately the breakup of the heterosexual nuclear family and the resultant absence of fathers...probably the biggest and least attended factor in the development of delinquency, is a minefield of political correctness.

Political correctness?

---

Slavery explains the break up of families. Mothers were sold seperately from children, husbands seperately from wives.

As opposed to family separation because of emigration, slave sales separated families without notice and without choice. And different from emigration, a family separated because of slave sales had in practice no hope of re-uniting.

For several centuries, white people separated black families this way. Such sales stopped in America about 150 years ago and in Europe and Canada about 180 years ago.

The Holocaust occurred almost 70 years ago.

I have heard it said that it takes five generations to overcome a family's calamity.

The issue here is not about a 'lack of fathers' - that is a moralistic argument favoured by those with ideological axes to grind.

Maybe. But many (if not all) of these young men grew up in single mother families.

[BC_chick]

It is the feminists nightmare. Women are objectified and found to be (by the males) without long term value. Women internalize their role and joust top see whiuch is more whore like than her peers. And the result is that children have children of their own and fathers are gone looking for morfe bitches and whores because that's what gangsters and pimps do.

Wow, do you even know any Caribbean women?

[BC_chick]

Slavery explains the break up of families. Mothers were sold seperately from children, husbands seperately from wives.

Excellent post August.

They were beaten for having any male/female relationships and people wonder why the family unit is broken down.

[ScottSA]

And with the publicity surrounding most deaths, the absence of grieving fathers is evident to all.

Where are the fathers?

Unfortunately the breakup of the heterosexual nuclear family and the resultant absence of fathers...probably the biggest and least attended factor in the development of delinquency, is a minefield of political correctness.

Political correctness?

---

Slavery explains the break up of families. Mothers were sold seperately from children, husbands seperately from wives.

As opposed to family separation because of emigration, slave sales separated families without notice and without choice. And different from emigration, a family separated because of slave sales had in practice no hope of re-uniting.

For several centuries, white people separated black families this way. Such sales stopped in America about 150 years ago and in Europe and Canada about 180 years ago.

The Holocaust occurred almost 70 years ago.

I have heard it said that it takes five generations to overcome a family's calamity.

The issue here is not about a 'lack of fathers' - that is a moralistic argument favoured by those with ideological axes to grind.

Maybe. But many (if not all) of these young men grew up in single mother families.

This post just goes to show the length to which some people will go to somehow blame the white man for all the ills of the world. How utterly silly. Do tell why most carribean cultures don't have the same problem. Then lets talk about why the south american indian culture, which was just as vigorously enslaved as any Jamaican, and not just by the evil white man but by the indigenous pre-columbian empires for centuries before that, has one of the strongest family cultures in the world.

[BC_chick]

Do tell why most carribean cultures don't have the same problem.

What do you mean? You think the breakdown of the family-unit is a Jamaican issue only?

Then lets talk about why the south american indian culture, which was just as vigorously enslaved as any Jamaican....

They remained on their homeland, not all were enslaved. There is a huge difference.

[August1991]

This post just goes to show the length to which some people will go to somehow blame the white man for all the ills of the world. How utterly silly.

No white person (European) alive today is guilty of the sin of slavery, anymore than the vast majority of Germans or Poles alive today are guilty of the holocaust.

I'm not pointing a finger of blame.

This thread asks the question, "Where all the fathers". I have offered an answer.

Do tell why most carribean cultures don't have the same problem. Then lets talk about why the south american indian culture, which was just as vigorously enslaved as any Jamaican, and not just by the evil white man but by the indigenous pre-columbian empires for centuries before that, has one of the strongest family cultures in the world.

Slavery has existed for millenia and it still exists today. But the African slave trade in particular was brutal in its effects on families.

In many ways, it is better to think of the future rather than dwell on the past.

[kimmy]

Argus has written in the past about this issue and made mention of some loophole or technicality in immigration laws that essentially made it possible for a large number of Jamaican nannies to come to Canada. I can't recall the specifics of what he wrote, but it made sense at the time and seemed like a plausible (more plausible than slavery, at least) explanation for why there is a disproportionately high number of single mothers in Toronto's Jamaican community.

This quote from the Reverend caused me to snort coffee out of my nose:

"I could have been a lot more graphic about how you don't have to profile us, we profile ourselves. But it was a funeral."

Pithy, but dead on. I know exactly what he means each time I read an article about gang violence in Toronto.

-k

[Liam]

For several centuries, white people separated black families this way. Such sales stopped in America about 150 years ago and in Europe and Canada about 180 years ago.

Is the implication that the US was the last to abolish slavery or that we reluctantly joined with progressives in Europe and Canada?

The first Northern US state to abolish slavery was Vermont in 1777 (technically, before it was even a state), 26 years before the practice ended in Canada. The last Northern US state to abolish slavery was New Jersey in 1804, only one year after Canada abolished slavery, but before the British Parliament passed the Slave Trade Act of 1807 (which merely established a fine for each slave found on a British vessel). Slavery was still practiced and flourished and did a terrific job of enriching Mother England in each of its colonies well past 1807. Slavery was not fully outlawed in the British colonies till the 1830's. France and Denmark didn't fully abolish slavery till almost 1850 - and slavery was still practiced in one form or another in French colonies in Africa till the 20th century. The Dutch maintained slavery into the 1860's (and some would say they held slaves till WW2 in some outposts).

It is true that some US states held on to slavery till the 1860's, but the US is the only nation that sacrificed hundreds of thousands of its sons on the battlefield to liberate slaves.

[myata]

Regardless of historical roots (which can be argued many ways) the only solution I can see is the multi-pronged continuous and relentless anti-gang campaign. Feel-good-blame-yourself-for-the-sins-of-the-world attitude won't bring any changes.

[Drea]

What does slavery and Jamaica have to do with the lack of fathers' participating in their children's upbringing in Canada in 2007?

Our memories are not inherited -- like the Neadertal in the "Clan of the Cave Bear" books. So how does slavery, generations ago, affect a single mum in Toronto today?

It doesn't that's how. Just another damn excuse to not raise kids properly.

[Mad_Michael]

If a lack of fathers is asserted to be the 'cause' of this gun violence in Toronto, how is that UK has a higher rate of births out of wedlock (40% in UK) than the USA does (37% in USA), yet the USA has a much higher violent crime and murder rate?

UK source

USA source

According to this 'fatherless' thesis, UK ought to have a much higher violent crime rate than the USA (per capita). It doesn't. Ergo, either the 'fatherless' thesis is wrong, or the stats are. Take your pick.

[Keepitsimple]

If a lack of fathers is asserted to be the 'cause' of this gun violence in Toronto, how is that UK has a higher rate of births out of wedlock (40% in UK) than the USA does (37% in USA), yet the USA has a much higher violent crime and murder rate?

UK source

USA source

According to this 'fatherless' thesis, UK ought to have a much higher violent crime rate than the USA (per capita). It doesn't. Ergo, either the 'fatherless' thesis is wrong, or the stats are. Take your pick.

There is a big difference between a raw statistic of unmarried parents and the Caribbean (mainly Jamaican) "culture" of mothers who have many children with different "fathers" - sperm donors is more accurate.

[Argus]

Slavery explains the break up of families. Mothers were sold seperately from children, husbands seperately from wives.

Excellent post August.

They were beaten for having any male/female relationships and people wonder why the family unit is broken down.

A hundred and eighty years ago! Given these people tend to have children at about fifteen that seems to me to be something on the nature of ten generations ago. So even if August's bleeding heart liberalism is to be believed about the recovery time they're still waaaay overdue.

Here's a statement which is true, but which will draw howls of racism.

Anywhere in Canada, in the US, in Australia or Britain, in France or throughout Europe. Any area with any kind of sizable number of Blacks is an area of high crime. It's certainly true that particular cultures - ie Jamaican - are far more crime and violence prone than others, but is there a larger "black culture" at least in the Western world, which is in large measure responsible for aggravating that?

[ScottSA]

If a lack of fathers is asserted to be the 'cause' of this gun violence in Toronto, how is that UK has a higher rate of births out of wedlock (40% in UK) than the USA does (37% in USA), yet the USA has a much higher violent crime and murder rate?

UK source

USA source

According to this 'fatherless' thesis, UK ought to have a much higher violent crime rate than the USA (per capita). It doesn't. Ergo, either the 'fatherless' thesis is wrong, or the stats are. Take your pick.

I guess they don't teach statistics in first year anymore, eh? Nice try though.

[bush_cheney2004]

Anywhere in Canada, in the US, in Australia or Britain, in France or throughout Europe. Any area with any kind of sizable number of Blacks is an area of high crime. It's certainly true that particular cultures - ie Jamaican - are far more crime and violence prone than others, but is there a larger "black culture" at least in the Western world, which is in large measure responsible for aggravating that?

Actually, it invites another perspective. Anywhere in Canada or in the US with a sizable number of "Whites", there will be higher crime rates compared to Asians. Why must Asians tolerate such crime and violence from Whites. What is wrong with "White" culture?

[ScottSA]

Anywhere in Canada, in the US, in Australia or Britain, in France or throughout Europe. Any area with any kind of sizable number of Blacks is an area of high crime. It's certainly true that particular cultures - ie Jamaican - are far more crime and violence prone than others, but is there a larger "black culture" at least in the Western world, which is in large measure responsible for aggravating that?

Actually, it invites another perspective. Anywhere in Canada or in the US with a sizable number of "Whites", there will be higher crime rates compared to Asians. Why must Asians tolerate such crime and violence from Whites. What is wrong with "White" culture?

Because we colonize them whenever they get uppity. And besides, your stats aren't true...the majority of gun deaths in Vancouver are caused and received by "Indo-Canadians."

[bush_cheney2004]

Because we colonize them whenever they get uppity. And besides, your stats aren't true...the majority of gun deaths in Vancouver are caused and received by "Indo-Canadians."

Uhhh..OK...why must Asians in Vancouver tolerate such uppity crime rates, along with higher rates by Whites!

[Drea]

It is well known that there are gangs in Vancouver.

There is a Vietnamese gang (probably a Chinese gang too) an Indo-Canadian gang and a gang called the UN Gang (all races), oh and of course the Hell's Angels.

As far as I'm concerned all races participate in gangs/crime, not one race is immune.

It does, however, seem that there are disproportionate numbers in ethnic gangs (per capita of each race).

[geoffrey]

It does, however, seem that there are disproportionate numbers in ethnic gangs (per capita of each race).

Correlation doesn't equal causation. I don't think anyone can possibly say that all blacks are inherently violent, all Asians street race their rice-rocket Civics, all while the whites stay home and watch TV and do productive things like get heart disease.