Two Tales of Homo Sapiens the Animal;

[jbg]

There are people who want to blame all of the ills of the world on the West. I'm sorry; the stories below show this is not the case. Two examples of savagery; one perpetrated, one by people who live like animals, on their instincts, show that the West should stop self-flagellating and start taking some pride in itself. The first article concerns the use of a remote-control-detonated 11 year old to kill Canadian troops (link); the second with people who have five children, by age 25, in a famine-ravaged land (link). The savagery inherent in the first story is deliberate and inexcusable; the second story makes people wonder if they care, when creating offspring, whether they can sustain them. Even with regard to the second article, one wonders if the Muslim extremists really are in support of their own people, since they are the ones making it too dangerous for even the UN to distribute aid. Excerpts below:

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Story 1 -

Bomber who struck Canadian troops was 11 years old, military sources say

Attack kills one Afghan soldier, wounds another

Last Updated: Friday, May 16, 2008 | 3:10 PM ET Comments114Recommend70CBC News

Military sources say a bomb that wounded two Canadian soldiers near Kandahar on Friday was carried by an 11-year-old boy and was detonated by remote control, killing the boy.

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Story 2

Famine Looms as Wars Rend Horn of Africa

By JEFFREY GETTLEMAN

Published: May 17, 2008

DAGAARI, Somalia — The global food crisis has arrived at Safia Ali’s hut.

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Jehad Nga for The New York Times

After three seasons of below-average rainfall, the people of central Somalia are beginning to fear the worst. Safia Ali, mother of five, has not eaten in seven days. Her 1-year old son, Farhan, has fallen ill.

At the same time, a drought has decimated her family’s herd of goats, turning their sole livelihood into a pile of bleached bones and papery skin.

The result is that Ms. Safia, a 25-year-old mother of five, has not eaten in a week. Her 1-year-old son is starving too, an adorable, listless boy who doesn’t even respond to a pinch.

Somalia — and much of the volatile Horn of Africa, for that matter — was about the last place on earth that needed a food crisis. Even before commodity prices started shooting up around the globe, civil war, displacement and imperiled aid operations had pushed many people here to the brink of famine.

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Whether Somalia slips into a famine may depend on aid, and right now, that does not look so good either. Eleven aid workers have been killed this year, and United Nations officials say Somalia is as complicated — and dangerous — as ever.

Beyond the warlord and clan fighting, there is now a budding conflict with Western aid workers. The Bush administration has said that terrorists with Al Qaeda are hiding in Somalia, sheltered by local Islamists, and has gone after them with American airstrikes. But a recent American attack on an Islamist leader in Dusa Marreb, a town in the center of the drought zone, has spawned a wave of revenge threats against Western aid workers. The United Nations and private aid organizations say it is now too dangerous to expand their life-saving work in Dusa Marreb.

Edited May 18, 2008 by jbg

[Borg]

I am certain someone will find a way to turn this into a another 'fault of the west".

Borg

[Remiel]

Let's play a game, jbg. I am going to quote a passage, and you are going to try and guess what country it is referring to. It is eminently relevant to your distaste for the young woman with five children at 25.

" It is a melancholy object to those who walk through this great town, or travel in the country, when they see the streets, the roads, and cabin doors crowded with beggars of the female sex, followed by three, four, or six children, all in rags, and importuning every passenger for alms. "

[CANADIEN]

Reminds me of what a friend of mine told me about something he witnessed a few years back...

It was at a conference, in Brazil I think. A North American woman saw fit to berate a worker with a Brazilian community organization, because of her six children. "You have too many children for the food and water you can give her, that's irresponsible". The response was straight to the point: "Your one child wastes more food and water than what I need for my children not to starve".

The "they have too many children" misses two important points: there is enough food produced to provide at least the necessary minimum to all human beings. And having five or six children in an environment where disease, malnutrition and poor sanitary conditions are rampant is sometimes the only way to have a reasonable chance that one will survive.

[Borg]

The "they have too many children" misses two important points: there is enough food produced to provide at least the necessary minimum to all human beings.

Unfortunately the environmental toll and the expense to move that food from "haves" to "have nots" is not lessening.

Borg

[jbg]

Let's play a game, jbg. I am going to quote a passage, and you are going to try and guess what country it is referring to. It is eminently relevant to your distaste for the young woman with five children at 25.

" It is a melancholy object to those who walk through this great town, or travel in the country, when they see the streets, the roads, and cabin doors crowded with beggars of the female sex, followed by three, four, or six children, all in rags, and importuning every passenger for alms. "

Britain, circa Dickens' time.

[jbg]

Unfortunately the environmental toll and the expense to move that food from "haves" to "have nots" is not lessening.

Or the donations are sold by greedy people with their paws out along the way. Witness what's going on in Myanmar.

[jbg]

It was at a conference, in Brazil I think. A North American woman saw fit to berate a worker with a Brazilian community organization, because of her six children. "You have too many children for the food and water you can give her, that's irresponsible". The response was straight to the point: "Your one child wastes more food and water than what I need for my children not to starve".

The response should have been "why don't you trouble yourself to make sure you can feed those you produce"?

[Remiel]

Britain, circa Dickens' time.

Try Ireland, circa Early 18th Century. A quote from the first section of Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal.

Why would those young Irish women do that to themselves and their children? Were they too Christian?

[bk59]

Blaming every problem in the world on "the West" is idiotic. But then again, so is this need to unthinkingly cast blame on anyone. And a bit insensitive (to say the least) to use tragedies to blame the victims.

Is your point perhaps that the mother of five children should have seen into the future to know that this famine was coming? The drought occurred over the last three seasons. Seems to me it might take longer than three seasons to give birth to five children.

Or maybe your point is simply that starving people should be blamed for starving? I mean, if they didn't have any children then those children would not suffer in a famine.

The world has so many problems why cause more by needlessly pointing the finger at others and saying "I know better than you" and "It is your fault"? It is important to understand the cause of problems in order to try to solve them. At no point does this involve blaming people for no particular reason. The problems caused by the famine in Somalia will not be solved by saying "don't have children". Perhaps if this was a case of food shortage due to overpopulation you would have a point. This is not such a case.

Next time, just let the idiots who say "everything is the West's fault" look like the fools that they are. There is no need to show any of that foolishness yourself.

[sharkman]

jbg, it seems everyone agrees with you on the story of the 11 yr old bomber.

On the other story, you do have a point, although people seem to be missing the part about Muslim extremists making it too dangerous for the UN to give out food. I am blessed to live in a country with a Christian heritage.

[bk59]

jbg, it seems everyone agrees with you on the story of the 11 yr old bomber.

On the other story, you do have a point, although people seem to be missing the part about Muslim extremists making it too dangerous for the UN to give out food. I am blessed to live in a country with a Christian heritage.

To be clear, I agree that both stories are tragic, including the part about the difficulties in distributing aid.

What I don't agree with is using these examples to fuel rhetoric that simply says look how bad these people are. It seems to be an exercise in promoting one's own moral superiority.

[DogOnPorch]

Try Ireland, circa Early 18th Century. A quote from the first section of Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal.

Why would those young Irish women do that to themselves and their children? Were they too Christian?

Eating the Irish, circa 1700 aside...Dicken's time is close enough.

-----------------------------------

I was lousy in school. Real screwed up. A moron. I was antisocial and didn't bother with the other kids. A really bad student. I didn't have any brains. I didn't know what I was doing there. That's why I became an actor.

----Sir Anthony Hopkins

Edited May 18, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[Remiel]

I would have to disagree. Dickens wrote Oliver Twist in 1838. Swift wrote A Modest Proposal in 1729. A small matter of, oh, the Industrial Revolution, the American Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars in between there. I suppose if you want to take the position that historical context does not matter, then I guess you must be really wondering what is the big deal over the Diary of Anne Frank.

[Guest American Woman]

Blaming every problem in the world on "the West" is idiotic. But then again, so is this need to unthinkingly cast blame on anyone. And a bit insensitive (to say the least) to use tragedies to blame the victims.

Is your point perhaps that the mother of five children should have seen into the future to know that this famine was coming? The drought occurred over the last three seasons. Seems to me it might take longer than three seasons to give birth to five children.

Or maybe your point is simply that starving people should be blamed for starving? I mean, if they didn't have any children then those children would not suffer in a famine.

The world has so many problems why cause more by needlessly pointing the finger at others and saying "I know better than you" and "It is your fault"? It is important to understand the cause of problems in order to try to solve them. At no point does this involve blaming people for no particular reason. The problems caused by the famine in Somalia will not be solved by saying "don't have children". Perhaps if this was a case of food shortage due to overpopulation you would have a point. This is not such a case.

Next time, just let the idiots who say "everything is the West's fault" look like the fools that they are. There is no need to show any of that foolishness yourself.

This is so well said-- I couldn't agree more. Furthermore, who's to say this mother is educated in the ways of birth control? Many women in third world countries aren't, which is why there's such a great need for clinics that educate women and help them along the lines of birth control.

[Oleg Bach]

I would have to disagree. Dickens wrote Oliver Twist in 1838. Swift wrote A Modest Proposal in 1729. A small matter of, oh, the Industrial Revolution, the American Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars in between there. I suppose if you want to take the position that historical context does not matter, then I guess you must be really wondering what is the big deal over the Diary of Anne Frank.

Wow - someone still remembers Dickens! Funny..I was looking over Great Expectations a while ago.. brilliant even now. Historic context is chronos...once chronos or chronololgy is ignored..then a warpage takes place and the art is made ugly..just as in good law you have to be accurate..unless you are planning to decieve intentionally and a small twist in Chronology can have the effect of destroying reality and letting the bad guys win..Historic context must be protected..If someone took and change the dates in the Diary of Anne Frank then future generations would be robbed of the lesson.

[jbg]

jbg, it seems everyone agrees with you on the story of the 11 yr old bomber.

On the other story, you do have a point, although people seem to be missing the part about Muslim extremists making it too dangerous for the UN to give out food. I am blessed to live in a country with a Christian heritage.

The point that even you are missing (maybe) is that the West should be under no obligation to support a "culture" that fosters reproduction at rabbit-like rates even where the places they live are basically not fit for human habitation.

[DogOnPorch]

I would have to disagree. Dickens wrote Oliver Twist in 1838. Swift wrote A Modest Proposal in 1729. A small matter of, oh, the Industrial Revolution, the American Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars in between there. I suppose if you want to take the position that historical context does not matter, then I guess you must be really wondering what is the big deal over the Diary of Anne Frank.

There was little difference between 1700 and 1800 if you were one of the poor. I think in that sense jbg was correct. Seriously, Swift's line could have come from Manchester circa 1820 as well as Ireland circa 1720.

Anne Frank's diary details a very specific period of time where those events couldn't/wouldn't have occured otherwise.

As for huge families: we have birth control in our culture which affords western women the freedom to actually have a life outside popping out kids. Most other cultures shun or ignore birth control...even when available.

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In the little world in which children have their existence, whosoever brings them up, there is nothing so finely perceived and so finely felt, as injustice.

---Charles Dickens

[Argus]

Try Ireland, circa Early 18th Century. A quote from the first section of Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal.

Why would those young Irish women do that to themselves and their children? Were they too Christian?

Mmm, could it be because the British conquered them, and absentee British landlords owned all land and, even in times of famine, shipped masses of food back to Britain for sale?

Unlike Somalia, famine was actually not an ongoing thing in Ireland. Even with the British shipping food offshore there was normally more than enough to feed lots of kids, albeit the diet was pretty restricted.

[August1991]

This thread is ultimately concerned with why some countries are poor and other countries are rich. Adam Smith wrote a book about 250 years ago about the very question and his ideas stand the test of time. Nowadays, the faddish term is the "rule of law". In my mind, that means that property rights must be respected and there must be functioning contract law.

Societies that define property rights and have functioning contract law will generally be well off or as well off as they can be. Without these "rules of law", no matter how much charity or aid is given, nothing much will change. Haiti has been on the dole for about 50 years and I don't think any aid project has accomplished anything sustainable in that time.

[bk59]

The point that even you are missing (maybe) is that the West should be under no obligation to support a "culture" that fosters reproduction at rabbit-like rates even where the places they live are basically not fit for human habitation.

So after reading about this three season drought you are willing to declare the whole country unfit for human habitation? There are many who look at New Orleans as a great example of how to locate a city in a terrible spot, maybe even a spot unfit for human habitation. I guess that means the inhabitants of New Orleans were undeserving of aid after the hurricane destroyed their city?

Obviously a country has no (contractual or legal) obligation to help any other country. That does not mean there aren't moral or humanitarian reasons to help others.

[bk59]

This thread is ultimately concerned with why some countries are poor and other countries are rich. Adam Smith wrote a book about 250 years ago about the very question and his ideas stand the test of time. Nowadays, the faddish term is the "rule of law". In my mind, that means that property rights must be respected and there must be functioning contract law.

Societies that define property rights and have functioning contract law will generally be well off or as well off as they can be. Without these "rules of law", no matter how much charity or aid is given, nothing much will change. Haiti has been on the dole for about 50 years and I don't think any aid project has accomplished anything sustainable in that time.

Without getting into your theory on property and contract law and how this affects rich or poor countries, the term "rule of law" does not mean quite what you imply in your post. The "rule of law" generally stands for the principle that no one is above the law, including governments and government officials. It does not relate specifically to property or contract law. The idea has been around for quite some time; the Magna Carta is an example of the principle.

[jbg]

As for huge families: we have birth control in our culture which affords western women the freedom to actually have a life outside popping out kids. Most other cultures shun or ignore birth control...even when available

I would think, even in such societies, that starvation of the mother, her existing children or both would change the equation unless of course she didn't love her existing children. I think these societies have little respect for human life. Thus, my tieing together the Somalia story with the story of the remote control-detonated 11 year old.

[bk59]

I would think, even in such societies, that starvation of the mother, her existing children or both would change the equation unless of course she didn't love her existing children. I think these societies have little respect for human life. Thus, my tieing together the Somalia story with the story of the remote control-detonated 11 year old.

You use a natural disaster to try to show that a society has no respect for human life? Disgusting. Next time why don't you show how Americans have no respect for human life because New Orleans was hit by a hurricane.

Or instead of that, next time just leave your moral superiority at home.

[bush_cheney2004]

You use a natural disaster to try to show that a society has no respect for human life? Disgusting. Next time why don't you show how Americans have no respect for human life because New Orleans was hit by a hurricane.

No...you have it backwards. Americans showed no respect for human life by building and living in New Orleans...regardless of hurricanes.