F-35 Purchase

[Guest Derek L]

it was your initiative... and now you want help with it?

My initiative? I’m flattered though that you see fit to use the information I provided……So how about it? Can you help us out with a breakdown of the Chinese budget?

[DogOnPorch]

don't you have a Sopwith Camel video to post... or sumthin?

My post = don't hold your breath, Derek. You ESL students...so literal.

[DogOnPorch]

Not due to criminality, due to your own ignorance about how things are produced. Something can be assembled in one country, but have components Made in China. You would never know about those components because they only have to put the name of the country where it was assembled. You can look all you want for that Made in China tag, just because it's not there doesn't mean that the product was not assembled by components that were indeed Made in China. You can't escape it. It's impossible.

Gosh! Really?? OK...so show me where they are in the F-35 like I asked.

[cybercoma]

Gosh! Really?? OK...so show me where they are in the F-35 like I asked.

I was referring to your claim that you don't buy Made in China.

[DogOnPorch]

I was referring to your claim that you don't buy Made in China.

That's right, I'm up to my knees in stolen Communist Chinese chips. At least I make an effort other than joyously buying at Chinese outlet stores like yourself. Now, do you have anything more other than innuendo re: the F-35's electronics being made in Red China? Details, please.

[Guest Derek L]

Since Waldo’s yet to provide the PRC budget breakdown boogie, let’s try and deduce where the American and Chinese Defence spending goes....

Well the Americans have ~1.5 million active duty personal and spend over ~700 billion a year on defence, with (per my link) over 100 million (That’s’ including costs for the Reserves and National Guard) going towards personal costs….

Now the Chinese have over ~2.2 active duty personal (800k reserves) with a stated budget of ~143 billion, or a little more than what the Americans in human resource related costs………So my question, if the Chinese pay even 1/3rd of what Western Forces do towards HR costs, how do they fund the rest of their military with their stated budget?

Something doesn’t add up?

[cybercoma]

At least I make an effort other than joyously buying at Chinese outlet stores like yourself

You don't know a thing about me.

[eyeball]

Something doesn’t add up?

Not as dramatically or graphically as it subtracts.

Given we've already shipped so many other jobs to China because of the ginormous savings in labour we should get them to build our planes. Further to that we should seriously consider hiring Chinese military contractors to defend us. It's painfully obvious our DND and military have completely priced themselves out of the market.

Imagine how much more we would save if we outsourced crackin' down and gettin' tough on crime to China.

[DogOnPorch]

You don't know a thing about me.

Much like you don't know anything about me. I guess that's a 'no' re: the F-35's electronics. Mere innuendo.

Edited April 19, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[cybercoma]

Much like you don't know anything about me. I guess that's a 'no' re: the F-35's electronics. Mere innuendo.

I didn't say anything about the F-35 electronics. I said you're full of shit when it comes to not buying Made in China.

[DogOnPorch]

I didn't say anything about the F-35 electronics. I said you're full of shit when it comes to not buying Made in China.

Such language. I've clearly struck a nerve re: your Chinese masters and the F-35. Perhaps you should be investigated for espionage. Eh?

[Army Guy]

China, India, Pakistan and Russia are all very close together and all have enormous militaries. China wants to be the pre-eminent power in Asia and be able to exert their influence over the region and India, in particular, wants to counter act this as much as possible.

Currently China's current military size when compared to India, Pakistan and Russia, could be compared to Britians military, compared to the US. China Has already eminent power over Asia, by quit a large margin..and is planing to double it's current military spending by 2015....

[eyeball]

China Has already eminent power over Asia, by quit a large margin..and is planing to double it's current military spending by 2015....

Will that be cash or credit card?

[waldo]

But we’re still waiting for you to provide us the Chinese information to help better contrast the two issues….

it was your initiative... and now you want help with it?

My initiative? I’m flattered though that you see fit to use the information I provided……So how about it? Can you help us out with a breakdown of the Chinese budget?

Since Waldo’s yet to provide the PRC budget breakdown boogie

you know that pompous *** statement you so objected to earlier? Have another!

let's recap: MLW war-hawks feverishly rained down on the (claimed) Red Menace's military build-up. Certainly, this is SOP when trying to rationalize Canada's proposed F-35 spending in regards to the so-called "Red Menance invasion threats" to Canada (/snarc). Of course, your ever diligent correspondent brought perspective forward in showcasing 2010 & 2011, by country, military spending that highlights the inordinate disparity between the military spending of the U.S. and all other countries combined... all other countries combined! You took it upon yourself to offer up a half-assed attempt to analyze those military spending numbers. Apparently, some delusion has you repeatedly putting onus on me to attempt to bump-up your half-assed attempt into a full assed attempt. Buddy, your analysis (attempt)... your onus, not mine!

[Army Guy]

Waldo:

given your genuine and respected input, I hesitate to suggest naivety on your part. Just the 2010 military spending... which effectively has been the state for years on end... where the U.S. military spending outstrips the combined spending of all nations - all nations! Note: Canada was #14 in military expenditures.....

Waldo i think you mis read my post, i mentioned that other posters were complaining about the militarization of our nation, turning our nation into a big military camp. The index i used was Global Militarization index , which measures militarization of a nation. which includes more than just military expenditures.

The graph you have used puts Canada at rank number 14, but it does not mention how it is measured, is it actual budget numbers, percentage of GDP,purchases, i'm not sure.

The reason i ask is although our budget is or was at 22.5 bil 70 to 80 % of that is in the O&M budget, and i d estimate that 70 to 80 % of that is wages...Canadian military is the 3 rd highest paid in the world first being the Australians...

[Army Guy]

ya, ya... the overpaid military grunts! Found a 2011 defense spending graphic... so you're saying the 2011 ~$600 billion difference in spending the U.S. holds over China is due to..... salaries!

And while we are the 3 rd highest paid forces in the world, the avgerage cpl does not make as much as garbage men in the and around the toronto area...and he does not have to drive on IED infested streets or face Ak fire....

The average RCMP constabul after the first year makes over 75 K while a first year pte makes 34 K...in fact most police officer are better paid...in fact RCMP officer in Afghan make more in bonues than we do...and share half the risks...

But you would be right if you included most workers in North American are over paid, not to mention we are by and by a welfare nation, with the government expected to provide most things...

[waldo]

Waldo:

Waldo i think you misread my post, i mentioned that other posters were complaining about the militarization of our nation, turning our nation into a big military camp. The index i used was Global Militarization index , which measures militarization of a nation. which includes more than just military expenditures.

alright... I've just had a quick review of GMI and the organizations behind it. Of course, there's a lot behind the figure... along with a lot of scrutiny/criticism... that, in isolation, it's an equally questionable number. In any case, the GMI country ranking numbers (of 148 ranked countries), for the 3 countries under discussion (lower number implies greater militarization):

U.S. => 30 ; China => 83 ; Canada => 87

With its Global Militarization Index (GMI), BICC is able to objectively depict worldwide militarization for the first time. The GMI compares, for example, a country’s military expenditure with its Gross Domestic Product (GDP) and its health expenditure. It contrasts the total number of military and paramilitary forces in a country with the number of physicians. Finally, it studies the number of heavy weapons available to a country’s armed forces. These and other indicators are used to determine a country’s ranking, which in turn makes it possible to measure the respective level of militarization in comparison to other countries.

Director of BICC (the organization behind GMI): The GMI—at best in combination with other indexes, such as the Human Development Index or the Global Peace Index—offers a strong data base for achieving a necessary differentiated estimate of militarization levels

note: as a goodwill gesture to the flailing MLW member 'Derek L'... check out SIPRI on how Chinese estimates are realized - you're welcome

The GMI uses mostly data of the Stockholm Peace Research Institute SIPRI, the International Monetary Fund (IMF), the World Health Organization (WHO) and BICC. The ranking shows the militarization of 161 states since 1990. It is updated on an annual basis. The GMI is funded by the German Federal Ministry for Economic Cooperation and Development (BMZ).

[waldo]

And while we are the 3 rd highest paid forces in the world...

my comment wasn't intended to disparage - most certainly not. I don't agree with the how/where/why of everywhere you've been deployed, but... you need to be paid well, extremely well, when you are there. But, for me, that's also tied into an entirely different discussion in terms of the bigger picture prioritization of spending versus roles for Canada.

[Army Guy]

let's recap: MLW war-hawks feverishly rained down on the (claimed) Red Menace's military build-up. Certainly, this is SOP when trying to rationalize Canada's proposed F-35 spending in regards to the so-called "Red Menance invasion threats" to Canada

Yes lets recap: MLW peaceniks have feverishly rained down on the Claimed "Who is ever going to attack Canada" MLW war-hawks, have i think very clearly proven that both Russia and China are increasing their military strength, when they only possiable threat is the US. And in doing so needs to be considered a threat in many ways, it would be iresponsable for western nations not to be concerned. One of those nations being Canada...

What kind of threat Cyber would be one these attacks that continue day to day and are very common including on Canada., Industrial or military intel gathering, another one that is very common and continues on a cold war level. military threats, perhaps not directed at North America, but most diffinently on US /Nato protectorites which the US has defensive agreements with, and of course we have agreements with the US, so you see how this ties into some of the decisions on why the F-35...

Not only is it the only affordable gen 5 fighter on the market today, we also have to consider Canada's purcurement record, i mean 40 years to replace an aircraft type, thats pushing the envolope, we also have to consider, is this Canada's last manned fighter, although we don't have the tech now, one would think we would in another 25 years....which means we need experience with high tech some what stealth tech. It would be iresponsable of the Airforce not to take into account that as we speak Russia and China are building stealth gen 5 aircraft, that will be operational in the near future, 5 to 10 years...even if they don't attack we has a nation still need to be prepared...Like someone said it's like fir insurance, you never know when your going to need it, but with out it can devastate a family or nation...The purchase of the F-35 is not just for defense again'st red menance attacks...had Pakistan decided to attack Nato forces in Afghanistan, or any major blow out in the middle east, and we all know what a tinder box that is...

I don't think it is much to ask for that our men and women be given the best equipment money can buy to give our sons and daughters an edge over our enemies so they may come home intact, and healthy...

(/snarc). Of course, your ever diligent correspondent brought perspective forward in showcasing 2010 & 2011, by country, military spending that highlights the inordinate disparity between the military spending of the U.S. and all other countries combined... all other countries combined!

I think i'm diligent correspondant, but i brought those in response to other claims such as the one that Canada was turning into an armed camp, or that our government was a militaristic one...but now that it is out there, it is common knowledge that the US military spending out strips everyones combined...but i don't know where you going with this, is your intention to say we fall under their defensive umbrella of the largest spender in the world.. although that is true, if we want to keep our indentity, soverenity, and all that goes with that we need to pull out wieght, and truely we are not, in any form pulling our weight as if we payed the entire costs of defense it would be more alot more than it is now.

[eyeball]

Yes lets recap: MLW peaceniks have feverishly rained down on the Claimed "Who is ever going to attack Canada" MLW war-hawks, have i think very clearly proven that both Russia and China are increasing their military strength...

I've been concerned and questioning the wisdom of our trading with these countries, especially China for years now.

The very same warhawks sneer with disdain at any talk whatsoever of withholding resources from China.

So to recap...the warhawks are clearly insane.

[DogOnPorch]

I've been concerned and questioning the wisdom of our trading with these countries, especially China for years now.

We agree on something. Let's buy Loto tickets.

The very same warhawks sneer with disdain at any talk whatsoever of withholding resources from China.

I'm anti-China all around. In BC, they're buying this place up lot by lot. Fair n' square, I'm sure...but I'm not looking forward to the ultimate results of all this Chinese 'investment'.

So to recap...the warhawks are clearly insane.

I'm pro-aviation. But anyone who thinks America will stand for a defenceless liability on its northern border are clearly the insane ones.

Edited April 19, 2012 by DogOnPorch

[eyeball]

But anyone who thinks America will stand for a defenceless liability on its northern border are clearly the insane ones.

I wonder how long they'd stand for a people that put virtue ahead of economics by withholding the natural resources that militaristic super-rogues need to grow stronger?

[DogOnPorch]

I wonder how long they'd stand for a people that put virtue ahead of economics by withholding the natural resources that militaristic super-rogues need to grow stronger?

Like Red China? Not long. My advice to you is that you pay attention to that fellow waving the gun. Ignore @ your peril.

[punked]

"Gee I wonder why China needs such a large military. Must be to attack Canada" Conservative posters around here.

In other news.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/india-tests-nuclear-capable-missile-that-can-reach-china/article2407238/

[Guest Derek L]

you know that pompous *** statement you so objected to earlier? Have another!

let's recap: MLW war-hawks feverishly rained down on the (claimed) Red Menace's military build-up. Certainly, this is SOP when trying to rationalize Canada's proposed F-35 spending in regards to the so-called "Red Menance invasion threats" to Canada (/snarc). Of course, your ever diligent correspondent brought perspective forward in showcasing 2010 & 2011, by country, military spending that highlights the inordinate disparity between the military spending of the U.S. and all other countries combined... all other countries combined! You took it upon yourself to offer up a half-assed attempt to analyze those military spending numbers. Apparently, some delusion has you repeatedly putting onus on me to attempt to bump-up your half-assed attempt into a full assed attempt. Buddy, your analysis (attempt)... your onus, not mine!

Yes, I understand how the exchange went down, but thanks. You brought up that handy graph with stated military spending between nations to help illustrate the difference between US and Chinese military spending. I question the Chinese stated expenditures, namely since the Chinese state that they spend in total a similar amount (With a much larger force in terms of personal) as to what the Americans spend on payroll.

Obviously the Chinese pay structure is nowhere near that of Western Militaries, but still, how do they pay for a military with thousands of tanks, fighters and warships? What effect does the Chinese military purchasing arms from state owned companies have on their accounting practices?

Now a more apt comparison to contrast Canadian military spending with would be Australia………We both spend a similar amount in terms of dollars spent, but Australia only has ~2/3rd the population and ¾ the GDP but they still have a similar standard of living……… Or what about the democracies in Europe? Germany, France, Italy and the United Kingdom all spend a similar portion compared with Australia (or Greater) of their GDP on defence, all the while still having a social safety-net for their citizens and a comparable standards of life……..

Do these countries know something we don’t? Or perhaps it’s because they’re not fortunate as us to have the United States next door and the ability, all the while openly chastising them, to benefit from their military largess.