Haiti Earthquake

[August1991]

I don't think this is the time for that kind of talk.

Huh?

Haitians must solve their problems their own way.

[Smallc]

Right now, they can't solve anything. Right now, they need our help. Right now, they're getting our help (and lots of it I might add).

[Smallc]

Agreed...it is called a "disaster" for a reason.

It frightens me when we agree on things.

[Guest American Woman]

I don't think this is the time for that kind of talk.

I'm curious. Regarding all the bureaucratic ineptitude surrounding the hurricane in New Orleans, did you think it was not the time for "that kind of talk;" ie: looking at what should have been done differently?

[Argus]

Right now, they can't solve anything. Right now, they need our help. Right now, they're getting our help (and lots of it I might add).

Are they? It's funny, but I've been watching this closely in the media, and I have yet to see a single media report showing a single Canadian aid or military worker doing anything. I have not seen or heard hide nor hair of DART since they flew out of Trenton. Supposedly they're somewhere in Haiti supposedly doing something, but if so the media is either ignorant about it or doesn't choose to report on it. Weren't they supposed to establish a field hospital and water treatment centre? Are they still sitting at the airport? Not a word through the media.

BTW, I have also not seen a single sign of the American military on US media other than a few guys at the airport, some Coast Guard people at the station, and a distant visual of the Carl Vinson. I imagine there's a few US soldiers in Haiti doing other things but if so the media doesn't care to show it. Maybe the media just don't like to show video or pictures of military people unless they're shooting someone, I dunno.

Edited January 16, 2010 by Argus

[Argus]

Obviously a little skill but I'd have to say a lot of luck too given their own violent and often malevolent past dictatorships and foreign interventions.

I never said every single country the west diddled with turned into a basket case - there's certainly nothing to justify pointing at exceptions and using them as a basis for a blanket denial of culpability in the one's that did or will.

Virtually every country in the Western Hemisphere has made substantial progress over the last generation except Haiti. DR is not an exception, Haiti is. And it's because it has a failed culture, with no social integration and teenage girls having babies at fourteen to twenty year old "fathers" who then consider they have not the slightest responsibility to care for or pay for the resulting children. This is a sign of a culture where everyone is in it for themselves and doesn't give a damn about anyone else. In every single media report of a rescue of someone buried other than by foreign rescue teams it seems the rescue was either organized by, made up of, or assisted by relatives and friends. It seems that Haitians are only willing to dig into the dirt if it's a relative or close friend. Otherwise, you're out of luck.

[Smallc]

I'm curious. Regarding all the bureaucratic ineptitude surrounding the hurricane in New Orleans, did you think it was not the time for "that kind of talk;" ie: looking at what should have been done differently?

Yes, yes I did. It's worth nothing though that this went much more smoothly from the perspectives of both Canada and the US.

Edited January 16, 2010 by Smallc

[Smallc]

Are they? It's funny, but I've been watching this closely in the media, and I have yet to see a single media report showing a single Canadian aid or military worker doing anything. I have not seen or heard hide nor hair of DART since they flew out of Trenton.

They've set up on the grounds of the Canadian Embassy from what I've heard on some reports. Apparently the logistics in Haiti are very difficult, but almost the full DART is on the ground by now working, as is one Griffon SAR crew and another will arrive today.

BTW, I have also not seen a single sign of the American military on US media other than a few guys at the airport, some Coast Guard people at the station, and a distant visual of the Carl Vinson. I imagine there's a few US soldiers in Haiti doing other things but if so the media doesn't care to show it. Maybe the media just don't like to show video or pictures of military people unless they're shooting someone, I dunno.

I'm not sure about the US military. I know they're there somewhere. I do know that Canadian are on the ground. early yesterday they helped at a Belgian field hospital while they're own facility was set up.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/751537--elite-team-s-job-is-to-unsnarl-airfield

Edited January 16, 2010 by Smallc

[Guest American Woman]

American Woman, on 16 January 2010 - 06:10 AM, said: I'm curious. Regarding all the bureaucratic ineptitude surrounding the hurricane in New Orleans, did you think it was not the time for "that kind of talk;" ie: looking at what should have been done differently?

Yes, yes I did.

Fair enough, even though I disagree. Seems to me it's a bit foolish to be donating millions of dollars, knowing of the corruption and ineptitude and looting, without looking at ways to do it differently; ie: ways to get different results. Seems to me, to simply pour in money without dealing with problems, is not only more along the 'feel good' lines, but it significantly lessens the good/positive/long term effects that could be accomplished.

Haiti is considered one of the most corrupt nations in the world, and for the benefit of the people, I think now is the time to address such problems, or they will be the ones ultimately losing.

Furthermore, I feel the best time to recognize and point out problems is while their effect is in play, as it's too easy to 'forget about' such things once the hoopla/interest/concern has died down.

[Smallc]

According to what I've read and heard the Governor General say, things were getting better there. Now is the time to dig Haiti out, to keep people from dying from wounds, to make sure when it rains more people don't die.

[Guest American Woman]

BTW, I have also not seen a single sign of the American military on US media other than a few guys at the airport....

The U.S. has been given control of the airport.

link

Haiti gave the United States control of its main airport on Friday to bring order in the skies to aid flights from around the world and speed relief to the quake-traumatized Caribbean nation, the Obama administration said.

[Guest American Woman]

According to what I've read and heard the Governor General say, things were getting better there. Now is the time to dig Haiti out, to keep people from dying from wounds, to make sure when it rains more people don't die.

"Getting better" doesn't mean things were good. In 2009, Haiti was still considered one of the most corrupt nations, ranking 168 out of 180.

Part of "digging Haiti out" should be addressing problems of corruption and bureaucratic inefficiencies. Part of keeping people from dying from wounds, or starvation, should be addressing these problems, in order to do the most good; to make sure the aid is making a real difference.

"Helping" and "recognizing/addressing problems" can occur simultaneously.

[Smallc]

Stan; Dad, shouldn't someone help those people?

Stan's Dad: That's not what's important right now son. What's important is figuring out who's fault this is.

[Guest American Woman]

Stan; Dad, shouldn't someone help those people?

Stan's Dad: That's not what's important right now son. What's important is figuring out who's fault this is.

"Helping" and "recognizing/addressing problems" can occur simultaneously.

So what part of HELPING don't you understand?

It's really useless to attempt to have a discussion when people don't even address what's been said...

[Sir Bandelot]

IOW, the people in Haiti must solve their problems their own way.

That's all fine and well, and I would agree as long as we at least get out of their way, and let them get on with it. But it's certainly not been the case over the last twnty years or so. They have received the blessings of "western charity".

[Smallc]

"Helping" and "recognizing/addressing problems" can occur simultaneously.

So what part of HELPING don't you understand?

I'm not sure what exactly you want to happen. Should we think help them slower? Should we star criticizing them now? Where do you get the idea that this is the time to start turning everything in the country upside down? The earthquake has already done that. People need food and water, and medical attention. After we're done that, we can start to rebuild in a better way.

Considerations about corruption really have no place right now. That comes after rescue and relief efforts, after security is in place. I'm really not sure what you're asking for.

[Guest American Woman]

People need food and water, and medical attention. After we're done that, we can start to rebuild in a better way.

Yes, and we should figure out the best way to get it to them. We should make sure we don't just hand over a million dollars to some corrupt organization.

Considerations about corruption really have no place right now.

It absolutely does if we want the aid/help to get to the people rather than line people's pockets.

That comes after rescue and relief efforts, after security is in place. I'm really not sure what you're asking for.

I'm asking that we be wise in providing aid, that we don't just start forking over money to 'feel good' while this is still big news. I'm asking that in the end the aid that's provided does the most good for the most people.

Edited January 16, 2010 by American Woman

[Smallc]

Yes, and we best figure out the best way to get it to them. We best make sure we don't just hand over a million dollars to some corrupt organization.

I don't think that's ever been the plan. I don't consider the Red Cross or Doctors Without Borders to be corrupt.

It absolutely does if we want the aid/help to get to the people rather than line people's pockets.

See above.

I'm asking that we be wise in providing aid, that we don't just start forking over money to 'feel good' while this is still big news. I'm asking that in the end the aid that's provided does the most good for the most people.

That's why you should only donate to reputable charities.

[Sir Bandelot]

Stan; Dad, shouldn't someone help those people?

Stan's Dad: That's not what's important right now son. What's important is figuring out who's fault this is.

We all want to help them, obviously. But how can we do that, if it only means giving money to the very ones who "helped" make these people as poor as they now are? How can we trust these organizations working at the behest of our government, the politicos. What if "who's fault this is" are the same ones who would take our good money and give it to villanous manipulators, embezzle it, waste it. Even, get rich off it, off the backs of the misfortunate.

I suppose all we can do is give them a billion dollars, and hope that at least 1% makes it to the front lines.

[DogOnPorch]

Belair: Port-au-Prince...before the quake.

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/4623020.jpg

[Guest American Woman]

I don't think that's ever been the plan. I don't consider the Red Cross or Doctors Without Borders to be corrupt.

Nor do I. But of course the Red Cross et al will be providing money to locals. They will be handing out money to local organizations. They won't be handing out every last penny to individual Haitians. They won't be building the buildings themselves. If you don't understand that, if you truly don't understand what I'm saying, you just don't get it.

See above.

Ditto.

That's why you should only donate to reputable charities.

That's not the issue. The issue is that you should want the aid to go to reputable organizations. That's what I'm saying. I want the aid that our governments give to do what I do, what you suggest; I want the aid to go to reputable organizations/corporations/etc.

If we don't recognize that there's a problem, if we stupidly just start handing out money, who's that going to help the most in the long run?

Edited January 16, 2010 by American Woman

[Argus]

Belair: Port-au-Prince...before the quake.

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/4623020.jpg

Yes, it's so important to help them get back to normality.

[DogOnPorch]

Yes, it's so important to help them get back to normality.

Note the clean-up operation going on.

[Guest American Woman]

We all want to help them, obviously. But how can we do that, if it only means giving money to the very ones who "helped" make these people as poor as they now are? How can we trust these organizations working at the behest of our government, the politicos. What if "who's fault this is" are the same ones who would take our good money and give it to villanous manipulators, embezzle it, waste it. Even, get rich off it, off the backs of the misfortunate.

Exactly. If we don't even recognize the existence of the problem, if we don't address it, then not only are we stupid, but we aren't helping the people. We are only making ourselves 'feel good' until Haiti is no longer in the news (again).

I suppose all we can do is give them a billion dollars, and hope that at least 1% makes it to the front lines.

Or we could recognize and address the problem, and be informed/educated/smart about what kind of aid we give and who we give it to.

Edited January 16, 2010 by American Woman

[capricorn]

Haitians must solve their problems their own way.

Insofar as reconstruction is concerned, Haitians know best what they want their country to look like. It won't be difficult to convince them than any reconstruction must give them protection from natural disasters.

Simply rebuilding Haiti is one thing, reconstructing Haitian communities is another. Cameron Sinclair of the San Francisco-based Architects for Humanity argues that one big mistake aid organizations make when they arrive in disaster zones is that they offer “cookie-cutter solutions” – models that worked in the last crisis are applied to the latest one, often with unintended results.

Mr. Sinclair, who has overseen rebuilding projects after disasters as far-flung as the tsunami and Hurricane Katrina, says that aid workers – arriving in a fleet of sports utility vehicles, with satellite phones and crates of bottled water not shared with the locals – often end up alienated from those they are trying to help.

People who have lost their homes and livelihoods usually welcome outside help. But they don't want to be cut out when their community is being reconstructed.

“The one-size-fits-all approach that comes with larger agencies is not only culturally inappropriate, but it can cause instability in the community,” Mr. Sinclair says, adding that his organization – like Habitat for Humanity – hires only labour from the local community. “People may have lost everything in a disaster. But one thing they haven't lost is their dignity. … It's not just about the culture and legacy of the community; it's about them.”

In the end, Haitians must decide what they want the rebuilt Port-au-Prince to look like. “If they tell you, ‘We just want it back the way it was,' with some improved standards of construction, then that's what you should be doing,” says John Van Nostrand, a Toronto architect worked on rebuilding Banda Aceh after the tsunami.

“But as soon as you're making [bigger] decisions … you're in trouble.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/how-to-fix-port-au-prince/article1433131/

-----

Of course, other challenges revolving around political instability await Haitians. As said, Aristide is ready to return to Haiti. It is seen that Aristide's possible return is a complicating factor. Among other considerations, how does or will this affect the solidarity of Haitians?

Complicating the political situation further was the declaration Friday by exiled former president Jean-Bertrand Aristide that he is prepared to return to Haiti if needed.

"As far as we are concerned, we are ready to leave today, tomorrow, at any time, to join the people of Haiti," said Aristide, who has lived in South Africa since leaving Haiti in 2004.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/takes+pains+taking+over+Haiti/2447200/story.html

Secretary of State Clinton is headed to Haiti. I wish her well as she'll be entering a hornet's nest.

Yes, the immediate needs of suffering Haitians are the priorities and the international community is answering the call as best it can in the face of logistical roadblocks. But through it all it's impossible to ignore the political situation bubbling just below the surface.