And the Wall Came Down

buffycat · January 23, 2008

Well, it seems there has been some escape from the siege as thousands of Gazans poured over the Egyptian border near Rafah. It appears that the Egyptian government will allow the crossing in light of the humanitarian crisis occuring currently in the Gaza Strip, where 1.5 million people have been held under siege since the summer of 2007.

Already we have seen over 65 people die due to the Israeli embargo on fuel and supplies - to hospitals and other aid organisations. Lack of fuel shipments, necessary medicines and the Israeli policy of not allowing anyone out of Gaza - even if it is for medical treatment elsewhere (Jordan, Egypt, Israel), has resulted in the early deaths of many, though the number is not important, the principle is. Even more have been wounded and maimed for life due to the constant shelling and destruction due to Isreali incursions and invasions of the Gaza Strip.

How the world can sit silently by, all in fear of being labelled anti-semites if they raise their voice is beyond pathetic.

Here a few headlines for those who dare not criticise the Israeli Administrations:

Israel expects Egypt to 'solve the problem' of mass border crossing

Palestinians blow up border and flood into Egypt

srael, U.S. to boycott UN rights council meet on Gaza blockade (Imagine my complete lack of surprise! )

More Warnings Pour in for Israel to end siege of Gaza before 'total collapse'

Head of ISA defines a terrorist as any Palestinian killed by Israel

Read it and weep.

:angry:

M.Dancer · January 23, 2008

Well, that should give the terrorists unfettered access to weapons...now that egypt' s aparteid wall is down

Edited January 23, 2008 by M.Dancer

buffycat · January 23, 2008

Well, that should give the terrorists unfettered access to weapons...now that egypt' s aparteid wall is down

As usual a really intelligent response from the superposter, M.Dancer! Well done and Bravo!

So, I must assume by your silence that you approve of starving a population to death, and lodging a siege against them in all aspects - medical, sustinence, fuel etc; ??

Hmmm?

You think this is okay?

Really?

M.Dancer · January 23, 2008

As usual a really intelligent response from the superposter, M.Dancer! Well done and Bravo!
So, I must assume by your silence that you approve of starving a population to death, and lodging a siege against them in all aspects - medical, sustinence, fuel etc; ??

Hmmm?

You think this is okay?

Really?

No I think it's terrible. Hamas should be held fully accountable for dragging the populace into their power struggle and using the entir Gaza as a human shield.

I assume you fully support the Geneva convention and the articles about launching attacks from civilian areas?

Hamas doesn't.

DogOnPorch · January 24, 2008

Already we have seen over 65 people die due to the Israeli embargo on fuel and supplies - to hospitals and other aid organisations.

If any hospitals, schools or other sensitive facilities were without power it was due to Arab choice. Only home fuel oil and gasoline were limited...not diesel fuel for generators. As well, Gaza gets 'power' from Egypt and it produces a limited amount on their own. So perhaps for Pallywood purposes there were deaths in hospitals.

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Ho-Ho-Ho...Green Giant

August1991 · January 24, 2008

Well, it seems there has been some escape from the siege as thousands of Gazans poured over the Egyptian border near Rafah. It appears that the Egyptian government will allow the crossing in light of the humanitarian crisis occuring currently in the Gaza Strip, where 1.5 million people have been held under siege since the summer of 2007.
Already we have seen over 65 people die due to the Israeli embargo on fuel and supplies - to hospitals and other aid organisations. Lack of fuel shipments, necessary medicines and the Israeli policy of not allowing anyone out of Gaza - even if it is for medical treatment elsewhere (Jordan, Egypt, Israel), has resulted in the early deaths of many, though the number is not important, the principle is. Even more have been wounded and maimed for life due to the constant shelling and destruction due to Isreali incursions and invasions of the Gaza Strip.

How the world can sit silently by, all in fear of being labelled anti-semites if they raise their voice is beyond pathetic.

Uh, so let me get this straight. There was a wall between Gaza and Egypt and yet you blame Israel for the embargo.

Was Israel policing this wall between Gaza and Egypt? Have you ever looked at a map of the region?

Edited January 24, 2008 by August1991

M.Dancer · January 24, 2008

Uh, so let me get this straight. There was a wall between Gaza and Egypt and yet you blame Israel for the embargo.
Was Israel policing this wall between Gaza and Egypt? Have you ever looked at a map of the region?

To be fair, the wall is part of an agreement between Israel and Egypt. There is one access point to Egypt controled by Egyptian and Israeli authorities. The reason for this is plain. To place as many obstacles as possible for the terrorists.

It would so uch simpler if Egypt just took back the Gaza.

DogOnPorch · January 24, 2008

Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Arye Mekel said Sunday night that Hamas had shut off power to most of Gaza unnecessarily.
"There's a blackout because they want to fabricate a crisis," Mekel said.

Gaza receives about 25 percent of its electricity from its power plant, Israeli and Palestinian officials said. Egypt supplies 5 percent. Five power lines from Israel supply the remaining 70 percent, and those lines were still supplying power to Gaza despite the blockade, Mekel said.

In Gaza, an official who oversees the power system said engineers had been forced to shut down power distribution at least temporarily to most of the strip after the power plant stopped operating.

Even before the blockade, electricity supply in Gaza ran 30 percent below demand, said the official, Fawzi Hassona, director general for planning in the Palestinian electrical system. Damage to one of the five Israeli lines had further reduced supply. Now, with the power plant off-line, Gaza has only about half of the electricity it needs, Hassona said.

Engineers must reconfigure distribution to account for the shortage brought on by the loss of the power plant before they can bring the system back on-line, Hassona said.

Meanwhile, Mekel noted "a very significant reduction" in the number of rockets fired from Gaza since Friday. About four have fallen in the past two days, down from roughly 50 a day earlier in the week, he said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...8012000870.html

The one Arab engineer's comment makes no sense. Reconfigure what exactly? Sounds more and more like Pallywood.

According to Israeli and Palestinian officials, Gaza's population uses about 200 megawatts of electricity, of which 120mw are provided directly from Israeli power lines, 17mw are delivered from Egypt, and 65mw are produced at a local Palestinian plant.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3464099,00.html

So there's plenty of juice...always has been. It's all in the 'reconfigurment'.

:lol:

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Ha-Ha!

---Nelson Muntz: The Simpsons

Argus · January 26, 2008

To be fair, the wall is part of an agreement between Israel and Egypt. There is one access point to Egypt controled by Egyptian and Israeli authorities. The reason for this is plain. To place as many obstacles as possible for the terrorists.
It would so uch simpler if Egypt just took back the Gaza.

Precisely. Egypt should take Gaza. It should become part of Egypt. The rest of the area termed "Palestine" should become part of Jordan.

This is the ONLY possible way short of massive bloodletting where the Palestinians, Israelis, or anyone else in the region will ever know peace. It is also the only solution which makes ANY economic sense.

geoffrey · January 30, 2008

As usual a really intelligent response from the superposter, M.Dancer! Well done and Bravo!
So, I must assume by your silence that you approve of starving a population to death, and lodging a siege against them in all aspects - medical, sustinence, fuel etc; ??

Hmmm?

You think this is okay?

Really?

Yes. It's okay. The vast majority are terrorists after they democratically chose Hamas as their leadership. If you vote for terrorists, expect to be treated like one.

No sympathy.

Ergonomic · January 30, 2008

Precisely. Egypt should take Gaza. It should become part of Egypt. The rest of the area termed "Palestine" should become part of Jordan.
This is the ONLY possible way short of massive bloodletting where the Palestinians, Israelis, or anyone else in the region will ever know peace. It is also the only solution which makes ANY economic sense.

So you are saying that the Palestinians should be subject to a deal worked out between Egypt and Israel? Jordan and Israel? Jordan and Egypt? :blink:

Hasn't worked so far. And it's been tried.

DogOnPorch · January 31, 2008

So you are saying that the Palestinians should be subject to a deal worked out between Egypt and Israel? Jordan and Israel? Jordan and Egypt?
Hasn't worked so far. And it's been tried.

Well they didn't go for the relativly sweet deal of 1947...but, back then, they thought they'd be driving the Jews into the sea...lol. That hasn't worked out so far, either. That plus they have elected a terrorist group as their goverment (as mentioned), so I'm not sure they'd be the right folks to strike a deal with.

What do you think? Deal with Hamas?

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All our efforts to find a peaceful solution to the Palestine problem have failed. The only way left for us is war. I will have the pleasure and honor to save Palestine.

---King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan, April 1948

M.Dancer · January 31, 2008

So you are saying that the Palestinians should be subject to a deal worked out between Egypt and Israel? Jordan and Israel? Jordan and Egypt?
Hasn't worked so far. And it's been tried.

It was tried and it seemed to work well. While Gaza was part of Egypt bewteen 1948 and to 67 I don't recall one incidence of insurrection against the Egyptian Government by the residents of Gaza.

Wilber · January 31, 2008

It was tried and it seemed to work well. While Gaza was part of Egypt bewteen 1948 and to 67 I don't recall one incidence of insurrection against the Egyptian Government by the residents of Gaza.

There is no way Egypt wants to take responsibility for 1.5 million Palestinians who will not only be a destabilizing factor in Egypt but insist on launching attacks at Israel from Egyptian soil to boot. Egypt doesn't want them any more than Israel and the same can be said for the other Arab countries in the area.

buffycat · February 1, 2008

As usual there is the normal misinformed responses from those who see only one side to this tragedy and make pathetic attempts to justify collective punishment. It's a known phenomena - look back 70 years to Germany. No difference.

Par for the course on this forum - I am not surprised, nor am I dismayed, as it is totally what I would expect from the posters at this joint!

For those lurkers and others who do have open minds I'll link the following articles by Uri Avnery. They sum up the situation very well:

Worse Than a Crime

Help a Ceasefire!!

The Great Experiment

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I personally find it quite disgusting that so many here treat a people with such disdain - a People - not their government.

By their standards it would be fine to wipe out the entire US for the crimes of their Administrations.

You guys are really sad.

scribblet · February 1, 2008

Gee it's really quite simple really. All the Palestinians have to do is quit lobbing rockets into Israel.

Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and Al Quaida grow stronger, all with the sole purpose of destroying Israel and killing all Jews. Israel has no choice but to react and defend from a coming violent Jihad. So far Israel has done little against the constant barrage of missiles from Gaza.

Israel had to close their of Gaza of the semi-porous border through which Gazians made a conscious choice to smuggle weapons, rather than food and anything else useful for a civilian infrastructure.

M.Dancer · February 1, 2008

As usual there is the normal misinformed ......

For a second I thought you were admitting your OP was in error....

DogOnPorch · February 1, 2008

I personally find it quite disgusting that so many here treat a people with such disdain - a People - not their government.
By their standards it would be fine to wipe out the entire US for the crimes of their Administrations.

You guys are really sad.

Memories are long all over, I suppose.

Celebrating 9-11, electing Hamas, shooting rockets, suicide bombings, Pallywood, 'Death to USA' friday sermons, 'Death to Israel' children's choirs...they all add up and leave their impression on folks in the West. Personally,I find them disturbing.

Meanwhile, Israel is 'apparently' showing values I can agree with...maybe it's Israeliwood...hey buffy?

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Girls, girls, girls...

---Motley Crue

Wilber · February 1, 2008

I personally find it quite disgusting that so many here treat a people with such disdain - a People - not their government.

I have a lot of empathy for the plight of the Palestinian people but after sixty years of trying to achieve their aims by violence only to have their situation continually deteriorate as a result, it is high time they realized this is a failed strategy which will only bring more suffering. Not only that but countries like Egypt are not going to make life difficult for themselves by allowing Palestinians to stir up trouble and launch attacks on Israel from their soil.

Ergonomic · February 1, 2008

It was tried and it seemed to work well. While Gaza was part of Egypt bewteen 1948 and to 67 I don't recall one incidence of insurrection against the Egyptian Government by the residents of Gaza.

No, but I seem to recall a few Israelis planting bombs in the theatres and mailboxes of Cairo...

Ergonomic · February 1, 2008

Well they didn't go for the relativly sweet deal of 1947...but, back then, they thought they'd be driving the Jews into the sea...lol. That hasn't worked out so far, either. That plus they have elected a terrorist group as their goverment (as mentioned), so I'm not sure they'd be the right folks to strike a deal with.
What do you think? Deal with Hamas?

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All our efforts to find a peaceful solution to the Palestine problem have failed. The only way left for us is war. I will have the pleasure and honor to save Palestine.

---King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan, April 1948

An interesting post. Didn't Golda Meir go to Amman to ask for Jordan to respect the UN declared borders on the eve of the Israeli War of Independence? Didn't Abdullah give his word? Did Abdullah's forces ever cross those borders?

Forget your Bible. Read your history!

Ergonomic · February 1, 2008

I have a lot of empathy for the plight of the Palestinian people but after sixty years of trying to achieve their aims by violence only to have their situation continually deteriorate as a result, it is high time they realized this is a failed strategy which will only bring more suffering. Not only that but countries like Egypt are not going to make life difficult for themselves by allowing Palestinians to stir up trouble and launch attacks on Israel from their soil.

You have a piece of land that has been registered as belonging to you. You paid the mortgage. You paid the interest. You did the paperwork. You registered it under the Turks and your thanks was that you had to send your sons off to fight for them. You registered it under the British. You registered it under the Jordanians. Your family has lived there since Suleiman.

One day some uniformed jackass with a gun knocks on your door and says you have 15 minutes to get out. Sure enough, 15 minutes later, a guy from Russia driving a bulldozer comes and destroys your home. Another guy from New Yawk City comes and throws a piece of paper on the rubble.

How long would it take for you to stop being pissed off?

Wilber · February 2, 2008

You have a piece of land that has been registered as belonging to you. You paid the mortgage. You paid the interest. You did the paperwork. You registered it under the Turks and your thanks was that you had to send your sons off to fight for them. You registered it under the British. You registered it under the Jordanians. Your family has lived there since Suleiman.
One day some uniformed jackass with a gun knocks on your door and says you have 15 minutes to get out. Sure enough, 15 minutes later, a guy from Russia driving a bulldozer comes and destroys your home. Another guy from New Yawk City comes and throws a piece of paper on the rubble.

How long would it take for you to stop being pissed off?

I would probably always be pissed off but do I keep sending my children and their children and their children to their deaths for a cause that cannot be won by violence and only serves to keep them in poverty?

DogOnPorch · February 2, 2008

Did Abdullah's forces ever cross those borders?

Eh? The Arab Legion played an important roll in the fighting. I doubt Abdullah did it for the Palestinians, though. More like a land grab of the former British mandate. But none-the-less, Abdullah was one of the heroic hopes of the Palestinian Arabs...

You have a piece of land that has been registered as belonging to you. You paid the mortgage. You paid the interest. You did the paperwork. You registered it under the Turks and your thanks was that you had to send your sons off to fight for them. You registered it under the British. You registered it under the Jordanians. Your family has lived there since Suleiman.

The Palestinian Arabs have a knack for picking losing horses. They should have never listened to the Grand Mufti...but his anti-Semitism was just too tempting. Now they listen to Hamas...that is, after listening to the Grand Mufti's nephew, Yasser Arafat. See a trend?

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Die Fahne hoch! Die Reihen fest geschlossen!

SA marschiert mit mutig-festem Schritt.

Kameraden, die Rotfront und Reaktion erschossen,

Marschieren im Geist in unseren Reihen mit!

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buffycat · February 2, 2008

The siege of Gaza is Collective Punishment - and THAT is a WAR CRIME - period.

The streets are overflowing with sewage and feces, as the pumps are no longer working due to the power cuts.

The hospitals can no longer keep their patients alive and are faced with tragic decisions: Unplug the dialysis, or unplug the incubators (somehow I cannot see how a tiny newborn baby is a terrorist, or savage animal as some posters here seem to think).

Almost 100 sick Gazans have died as a result of the blockade - as a result of the blockade.

In January over 100 Palestinians (fighters and civilians - among them children) have been killed by IDF forces alone in Gaza (this is not taking into account the problems in the West Bank).

These are the facts of what is happening NOW.

From Uri's article, "Worse than a Crime' linked in my previous post:

What is being hidden from the embittered public is that the launching of the Qassams could be stopped tomorrow morning.
Several months ago Hamas proposed a cease-fire. It repeated the offer this week.

A cease-fire means, in the view of Hamas: the Palestinians will stop shooting Qassams and mortar shells, the Israelis will stop the incursions into Gaza, the "targeted" assassinations and the blockade.

Why doesn't our government jump at this proposal?

Simple: in order to make such a deal, we must speak with Hamas, directly or indirectly. And this is precisely what the government refuses to do.

Why? Simple again: Sderot is only a pretext - much like the two captured soldiers were a pretext for something else altogether. The real purpose of the whole exercise is to overthrow the Hamas regime in Gaza and to prevent a Hamas takeover in the West Bank.

In simple and blunt words: the government sacrifices the fate of the Sderot population on the altar of a hopeless principle. It is more important for the government to boycott Hamas - because it is now the spearhead of Palestinian resistance - than to put an end to the suffering of Sderot. All the media cooperate with this pretence

Avnery makes a good point here wrt the toy rockets landing in and near Sderot - it could stop tomorrow if the Israeli Admin really did desire it. Hamas has repeatedly offered a ceasefire, the most recent just a few weeks ago. A ceasefire is NOT what the warhawks in the Admin want - they want their little experiment over the lives of 1.5 million people to continue - to see how far a people can be pushed, to radicalize even further their beliefs and opinions of their oppressors. Read Avnery's The Great Experiment, written almost a year ago, to see how his 'satircal' piece has become policy with the inhuman creatures facilitating the starvation and oppression of millions of human beings - sorry jbg - all Palestinians are NOT terrorists, nor Animals - they are people, plain and simple.

And meanwhile - illegal settlements and and Jewish only roads are still being built on Palestinian lands in the WB - there is no freeze, no attempt to dismantle them - they continue to grow as the indigenous people watch as their groves are bulldozed along with their homes. So, with all this happening, the inhuman siege on Gaza, the continued theft and destruction of Palestinian land and property throughout the West Bank one must really ask: Who is 'wiping' who off the map?

Image of Land losses 1946 - 2000

I suggest those here who seem to think that the Palestinians have it peachy take a gander at these maps - they truly do tell a story and a very sad one for both peaceful, humane Israelis and the Palestinian indigenous peoples.