A Muslim inmate has won $2,000 for bacon insult

[jbg]

Are you outraged over all special demands?

or just Muslim special demands?

The Muslims seem to want to make us guests in our own land.

Special food for prisoners is hardly the only such demand. See link.

[buffycat]

I'd love to know why the difference in reactions to the serving of Kosher meals and the serving of Halal meals. As no one seemed to say anything when the suits and court cases come up wrt observing strict Jewish dietary laws.

Seems to me that old double standard has raised it's ugly head again around here....

Mmmmmmm FEEL the hate..... :angry:

edited to add: This kind of reminds me of the faith school funding divide - you either fund them all or none of them - in this case you either provide both Halal and Kosher - or you provide NONE. Pretty simple IMO.

Edited September 26, 2007 by buffycat

[kuzadd]

The Muslims seem to want to make us guests in our own land.

Special food for prisoners is hardly the only such demand. See link.

Does your opinion lie on the act itself, or the person perpetrating???

Are you outraged over all special demands?

or just Muslim special demands?

I'll ask again?

[jefferiah]

If it was a Jewish person, would you be promoting it, to a high profile?

because, as we have established it is a reality, that Jewish people have also demanded dietary consideration, so should that be high profile to, or just because it is a Muslim???

Does your opinion lie on the act itself, or the person perpetrating???

Are you outraged over all special demands?

or just Muslim special demands?

Sure I would. Of course it would depend upon the details of the case as well. This meal was served every Wednesday I think. A good size breakfast plus three slices of bacon. Once again that is two eggs, three pieces of toast, breakfast cereal, beverages, etc. I don't care if the guy is Muslim, Jewish, Scientologist, etc. All he has to do is say no bacon for me. That's it. If the prisoner were Jewish I would expect him to do the same.

[buffycat]

jbg do you have a foot fetish??

(response to link)

Oh and Kuzadd - it's not the same when Jews are asking for Kosher, or asking for Christmas decorations to be removed...!!

[kuzadd]

here's a news story out of Florida:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,294349,00.html

Florida Prison Halts Kosher Meals for Jewish Inmates, Halal Meals for Muslims

IAMI —

Jewish inmates who follow strict religious diets at Florida prisons are no longer provided meals in line with their beliefs. Muslims must now eat vegan food to satisfy their religious requirements.

The Corrections Department has ended the Jewish Dietary Accommodation Program, which provided kosher meals to not only Jews, but to Muslims as well, because the state prison system does not offer halal food. Cost — and fairness — were cited as factors.

"We have 100 faiths represented by DOC inmates, so it would be impossible to satisfy everyone's preferences and unfair to do it for one group and not another," agency spokeswoman Gretl Plessinger said. "We just have to look at what our mission is and what's best for our overall department and the overall population of inmates in our system instead of a smaller group."

The department has suspended use of pork products in an attempt to appease religious adherents and will continue to serve vegetarian and vegan meals. It said many Jews and Muslims could choose the vegan option, which is free of any animal products, to adhere to their faiths.

But for the strict followers of kosher and halal diets, it is far from ideal.

Rabbi Jack Romberg of Temple Israel in Tallahassee, who was a member of a group that reviewed religious dietary accommodations in prisons, noted that unless the vegan food is prepared separately from other meals, it would not satisfy kosher law. Ahmed Bedier of the Council on American-Islamic Relations in Tampa said vegan food would meet the religious requirements of those who follow a halal diet, but would cause undue hardship.

"Either you have a choice of violating your own religion beliefs or you're coerced to only eat vegan," Bedier said. "That's probably not a reasonable accommodation."

The Corrections Department halted new enrollment in the state's Jewish Dietary Accommodation Program in April — when it had 259 inmates enrolled and another 95 seeking inclusion — and commissioned a review. Last year, the department opened the kosher meal program to non-Jews and officials have feared it would burgeon, along with the bill.

Note in this case this program was SPECIFICALLY geared to Jewish persons, it was called the "Jewish Dietary Accommodation Program"

So Florida, said goodbye to it all!

and that was the correct reponse.

if you make exceptions for some, you cannot pick and choose who it is, based on "discriminatory reasoning".

Therefore, if the prison system provides special meals for Jewish persons, then special meals should also be provided for Muslims, or NO special meals for anyone, for religious reasons.

Edited September 26, 2007 by kuzadd

[buffycat]

Sure I would. Of course it would depend upon the details of the case as well. This meal was served every Wednesday I think. A good size breakfast plus three slices of bacon. Once again that is two eggs, three pieces of toast, breakfast cereal, beverages, etc. I don't care if the guy is Muslim, Jewish, Scientologist, etc. All he has to do is say no bacon for me. That's it. If the prisoner were Jewish I would expect him to do the same.

I agree - but the thing is that allowances have been made in both cases - and the only cases where it's illiciting such a virulant and hateful response is wrt Halal - not Kosher.

The double standard is appaulling.

[jefferiah]

edited to add: This kind of reminds me of the faith school funding divide - you either fund them all or none of them - in this case you either provide both Halal and Kosher - or you provide NONE. Pretty simple IMO.

It was provided, Buffycat. Two eggs, three pieces of toast, breakfast cereal, beverages, and three pieces of bacon he can easily refuse. Everything besides the bacon is Halal. If for some reason another prisoner does not like bacon they are not going to cook a salmon just for him. Or if some other fellow hates the kinds of jam they provide with the toast he can skip out on the jam. People who are not in prison make lemonade when life gives them lemons. What is wrong with expecting prisoners to do so?

[buffycat]

here's a news story out of Florida:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,294349,00.html

Florida Prison Halts Kosher Meals for Jewish Inmates, Halal Meals for Muslims

Yeah I saw that one... good on Florida!!

NO special meals for anyone - or special allowances for all.

I'm personally on the side of NO allowances for anyone - these folk are in prison afterall.

[jbg]

jbg do you have a foot fetish??

(response to link)

Oh and Kuzadd - it's not the same when Jews are asking for Kosher, or asking for Christmas decorations to be removed...!!

I disagree with Jewish demands on Christmas decorations. As for Kosher food for prisoners, there aren't many Jewish prisoners. I suppose they forfeit certain rights as well as Muslims do if they commit crimes.

[buffycat]

It was provided, Buffycat. Two eggs, three pieces of toast, breakfast cereal, beverages, and three pieces of bacon he can easily refuse. Everything besides the bacon is Halal. If for some reason another prisoner does not like bacon they are not going to cook a salmon just for him. Or if some other fellow hates the kinds of jam they provide with the toast he can skip out on the jam. People who are not in prison make lemonade when life gives them lemons. What is wrong with expecting prisoners to do so?

I think you are missing the point - I don't think either the Jew or Muslim should be afforded any kind of special treatment wrt food. You are correct - he could simply refuse it. The dude is a whiner - yeah I get that - BUT what I am refering to is the double standard itself. Kosher okay - Halal bad...

Otherwise I think we agree.

[jefferiah]

I agree - but the thing is that allowances have been made in both cases - and the only cases where it's illiciting such a virulant and hateful response is wrt Halal - not Kosher.

The double standard is appaulling.

So far no one has cited a Kosher case in Canada. Also in the American case no one has cited what the meals provided were. In this case the only thing not Halal was three strips of bacon. To me, given the size of the breakfast aside from that, you could easily compare that to not eating your coleslaw. But perhaps in these other cases the pork was more prominent in the meals so that it was impossible to be nourished without breaking Halal or Kosher laws.

[kuzadd]

http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/prgrm/chap/d...iete-03_e.shtml

Corrections Canada

Religious Diets - General Guidelines

seems corrections canada is aware of all manner of special dietary needs for all faiths.

Therefore, you serve, everyone. Or none at all!

It is not who, but the very act itself that should be questioned?

Should special meals be provided at all, for religious reasons, to anyone at all???

My answer, if you do for some, you do it for all, or NOT AT ALL !!!!

[jefferiah]

http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/prgrm/chap/d...iete-03_e.shtml

Corrections Canada

Religious Diets - General Guidelines

seems corrections canada is aware of all manner of special dietary needs for all faiths.

Therefore, you serve, everyone. Or none at all!

It is not who, but the very act itself that should be questioned?

Should special meals be provided at all, for religious reasons, to anyone at all???

My answer, if you do for some, you do it for all, or NOT AT ALL !!!!

Once again I will point out to you Kuzadd. This meal was served on Wednesdays. Three pieces of toast, two eggs, beverages, breakfast cereal----all Halal. Three pieces of bacon not Halal. No bacon for me please. A complete meal was provided. If someone does not like a certain corner of his plate in the meal served on Thursday should he get a replacement?

[kuzadd]

Once again I will point out to you Kuzadd. This meal was served on Wednesdays. Three pieces of toast, two eggs, beverages, breakfast cereal----all Halal. Three pieces of bacon not Halal. No bacon for me please. A complete meal was provided. If someone does not like a certain corner of his plate in the meal served on Thursday should he get a replacement?

I read the OP article.

I note also it only appeared in the one paper , that I could find,probably because it is truly such a non-issue, except for people or a paper that wishes to make an issue of it.

Frankly, when the meal was served means nothing to me.

The fact is Corrections Canada, when one looks at there site is fully aware and has been complying with dietary needs based on religions, so.....

Do it, or not!

I don't care who complained! If this is routinely provided, which it appears to be, then it should be provided, that's it.

If Corrections Canada is not going to provide for one religious group, then they should provide religious diets for none.

Simple as that.

So i'll suggest to you, make an issue of it, and have corrections canada stop providing specific meals for religious reasons, for all religions!

[betsy]

If it was a Jewish person, would you be promoting it, to a high profile?

Yes.

And if it was a Christian, yes I'd like it promoted to a high profile!

My outrage is over the frivolity of it...and for the way it was handled.

because, as we have established it is a reality, that Jewish people have also demanded dietary consideration

In prison? Where? Cite so we'll know the full details.

Cite some Canadian incidents. That Florida and California....well as I've told AW, she can go vent her outrage.....after all she is an American and it's American taxpayers who's shouldering those expenses. Besides, they might have their own different policies there.

I'll be outraged over what we, as Canadian taxpayers, are wasting our hard-earned money for.

Does your opinion lie on the act itself, or the person perpetrating???

Obviously it lies on the act!

And the place! This facility is a prison....not a hotel.

And the person, being that he is there for doing crime!

AND THE PRINCIPLE of it!

But not because of his race. And not because of the fact that he is a Muslim.

As I've stated in a previous post somewhere in this thread...this precedent could mean we'll have to pander to other frivolous religious demands!

Gee...imagine that! A criminal complaining because of the bloody bacon, AND his frivolous complaint being entertained at the price of $2000.... when a good portion of our children don't even have anything to eat for breakfast! That money could easily go to a children's breakfast program!

This is giving me a high blood pressure, Kuzzadd!

Edited September 26, 2007 by betsy

[betsy]

I note also it only appeared in the one paper , that I could find,probably because it is truly such a non-issue, except for people or a paper that wishes to make an issue of it.

Ahhh...that's why "little" things like this should become issues! A little bit here, a little bit there....and it all adds up!

And then bam! Suddenly there's this big expose' and only then do we realize that it's been an on-going practice all this time. For so long that it had already created a climate of entitlement. And we've been wasting all that money all along.

What, weren't we outraged over the prison golf privileges for certain inmates? I don't remember them being Muslims either.

And there was an outrage over Homolka's status too, I just couldn't remember what it was.

Edited September 26, 2007 by betsy

[kuzadd]

As I've stated in a previous post somewhere in this thread...this precedent could mean we'll have to pander to other frivolous religious demands!

did you check corrections canada's website?

I linked to it.

here it is

http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/prgrm/chap/d...iete-03_e.shtml

Corrections Canada

Religious Diets - General Guidelines

We apparently already do " pander to other frivolous religious demands!" and in all likelihood for sometime now.

read it for yourself. Making that argument rather bogus.

so I'll say the same thing I said to Jefferiah:

"So i'll suggest to you, make an issue of it, and have corrections canada stop providing specific meals for religious reasons, for all religions!"

that , should take care of the whole issue quite nicely!

Edited September 26, 2007 by kuzadd

[Shakeyhands]

lets take the idea of muslims and jews out of this for a minute and have a thought on our current penal system. The idea currently is that prison should be a form of rehabilitation not punishment. Sure, you have your incorrigibles, but I would think the vast majority are on a singular trip throuhg the system. Why would you want to deny them part of what they are?

[kuzadd]

lets take the idea of muslims and jews out of this for a minute and have a thought on our current penal system. The idea currently is that prison should be a form of rehabilitation not punishment. Sure, you have your incorrigibles, but I would think the vast majority are on a singular trip throuhg the system. Why would you want to deny them part of what they are?

That would be an entirely different discussion.

rehabilitation or punishment, or some combo of both.

This one has been all about an alleged favouritism, where there isn't one.

It is quite clear Corrections Canada has been providing diets based on religion.

Either they do it for all, or none at all.

But if we look at the issue as a rehabilitative/punishment together, with a goal of getting people back into a productive roll in society, then it makes sense, to allow people to continue on practicing their religions , etc.,

But that , until now has not been the issue.

[jefferiah]

That would be an entirely different discussion.

rehabilitation or punishment, or some combo of both.

This one has been all about an alleged favouritism, where there isn't one.

It is quite clear Corrections Canada has been providing diets based on religion.

Either they do it for all, or none at all.

But if we look at the issue as a rehabilitative/punishment together, with a goal of getting people back into a productive roll in society, then it makes sense, to allow people to continue on practicing their religions , etc.,

But that , until now has not been the issue.

A Halal meal was provided. Two eggs, three pieces of toast, breakfast cereal and beverages.

[betsy]

did you check corrections canada's website?

I linked to it.

here it is

http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/prgrm/chap/d...iete-03_e.shtml

Corrections Canada

Religious Diets - General Guidelines

We apparently already do " pander to other frivolous religious demands!" and in all likelihood for sometime now.

read it for yourself. Making that argument rather bogus.

Depends by what each and everyone of us see as "pandering."

Some would argue with you that the Religious diets provided by Corrections Canada is just respecting the rights of those who want to practice their religious freedom. The terms, in my view, are not outlandish! I don't think they fall in the category of being "FRIVOLOUS!"

BUT IF SOCIETY wants to scrap that privilege given to inmates in prison....I wouldn't lose any sleep about it, to tell you the truth!

so I'll say the same thing I said to Jefferiah:

"So i'll suggest to you, make an issue of it, and have corrections canada stop providing specific meals for religious reasons, for all religions!" that , should take care of the whole issue quite nicely!

What? Just because this guy did not get anything else other than bacon, and frivolously made a stink about it - when there is evidently an acceptable alternative which is halal - your solution would be to deny everybody???

I wonder if that would still be your position had the complainant happened to have been a Christian who got bacon with his breakfast on a friday - along with his eggs, toasts, milk, cereals and juice - and he demands that he be given a substitute for the bacon since he does not eat meat on fridays.

Your logic suggests that we give special preferential treatment to this man....simply because he is a Muslim!

Edited September 26, 2007 by betsy

[August1991]

Reading quickly through this thread, I gather that some prisoner was paid $2000 to compensate for being served meals with no bacon substitute.

How much does it cost to replace the bacon with something else? If it is more than $2000, then we should continue to pay the prisoner $2000 since it would be cheaper.

The only problem that I see with this solution is that all prisoners could claim to be Muslim (or any other religion) and want compensation for not receiving an appropriate meal.

So, here's another solution. Let's bill prisoners for any special requests that they may have. If a prisoner wants to have a special meal (different from a baseline menu), then the prisoner (or family) must pay for the cost of the extras.

IOW, either the prisoner should pay to be different or we should compensate the prisoner if we cannot respect their difference.

Edited September 26, 2007 by August1991

[kuzadd]

betsy

Your logic suggests that we give special preferential treatment to this man....simply because he is a Muslim!

Gosh Betsy: where do you come to the conclusions you do?

except from your own bias?

Did you read anything I posted?

He is not asking for preferential treatment, he only asked what he was entitled to.

Take it up with corrections canada for having this type of policy if YOU have a problem with it, because YOU appear to.

Betsy:

Some would argue with you that the Religious diets provided by Corrections Canada is just respecting the rights of those who want to practice their religious freedom. The terms, in my view, are not outlandish! I don't think they fall in the category of being "FRIVOLOUS!"

Apparently, though that is EXACTLY your view! , frivolous and outlandish, preferential.

see your own words below:

Why should we taxpayers shell out more to order in something just to pander to this inmate?

this blasted Muslim and the moronic judge who had just started a precedent here it seems. So this means we'll probably be pandering to every religious demands from every inmates!

or have you had an epiphany?

The FACT is the man only asked for what he was entitled to, nothing else.

You are unwilling to accept that, that's your problem.

secondly, this entire article as betsy pointed out , apparently needs to be brought to more peoples attention. Though I fail to see why.

I think news like this should become high-profiled. It's these little things that escape the spotlights that I'm sure truly reflect the reality of what's going on.

Well I don't know exactly what you think is going on? Though I can fathom a reasonably good guess at it. There is nothing going on. This is why I couldn't find in in the Globe or the Star, or my local paper, because it is much ado about nothing.

Corrections Canada in fact, did not live up to their own guidelines, and they were held accountable.

I can't imagine why any newspaper, would waste much ink on this story when there are more vital issues to contend with.

Except for a paper with a set bias.

Interesting, FYI: the Sun has a readership level of Grade 5, it's appeal is to a lower intelligence reader.

How do I know?

A writer informed me of the necessity to dumb the article down to the audience, yup, every paper has an 'audience' and the paper knows who it is. The Sun's are the lowbrow type, drink beer, heavy on the boobs and sports, lots of ads.

Enjoy it, for what it's worth.

oh and betsy:

I wonder if that would still be your position had the complainant happened to have been a Christian who got bacon with his breakfast on a friday

I would have said the exact same thing.

[betsy]

The FACT is the man only asked for what he was entitled to, nothing else.

He asked for what he thinks he was entitled to.

But the FACT is he already had what he was actually entitled to.

Edited September 27, 2007 by betsy