Fascism returns to Europe

[Guest American Woman]

I'm not sure. It seems that each time the left gets caught in the broom closet with fascism, it feels the need to start flinging odure. I wonder why?

There's a maxim in my profession. When the law is against you argue the facts. When the facts are against you argue the law. When both are against you, pound the table.

Thanks for providing that bit of information about yourself, jbg. It helps to understand where you are coming from.

"jbg

Yank Left Winger"

Edited September 25, 2007 by American Woman

[jbg]

There's a maxim in my profession. When the law is against you argue the facts. When the facts are against you argue the law. When both are against you, pound the table.

Thanks for providing that bit of information about yourself, jbg. It helps to understand where you are coming from.

"jbg

Yank Left Winger"

You are welcome. I was constrained by etiquette considerations from pointing fingers here. As far as my overall politics go, you can be sure they are well to the left of Canada's NDP. I'm too far left even for DailyKos and Rabble.

[Jerry Galinda]

Yes Jerry, I'm ultra left. Stop clogging the thread.

Fascism has socialistic roots. (The Road to Serfdom).

”I'm ultra left.” - rather childisch boy - without knowledge about ultra -left which consider : individual anarchism, collectivist anarchism, anarchist communism, anarcho-syndicalism, anarcho-capitalism, komunism, leninism, maoism, marksism, trockism and so on.

Are you one of them ? I don’t believe - you are a naive childish boy who write about problems without knowledge.

[Jerry Galinda]

Fascism has socialistic roots. (The Road to Serfdom).

”I'm ultra left.” - rather childisch boy - without knowledge about ultra -left which consider : individual anarchism, collectivist anarchism, anarchist communism, anarcho-syndicalism, anarcho-capitalism, komunism, leninism, maoism, marksism, trockism and so on.

Are you one of them ? I don’t believe - you are a naive childish boy who write about problems without knowledge.

not - "consider" - consist

I hope that it's understandable.

[ScottSA]

Greater minds than yours have grappled with developing an accurate definition of fascism. There's plenty of scholarly debate on the subject, of which someone with your extensive education and worldiness (as you so often remind us all) is no doubt well aware. Suffice to say that most have gone well beyond your encapsulation of the political ideology of fascism as "that which harshes my mellow."

Ah, so you haven't got a clue. Since there are no greater minds than mine, I assume that the subtext of your pissy snit is "oops, I'm wading into waters too deep for my high school equivalency"? As a matter of fact, fascism's ideology, if it can be dignified as such, amounts to little more than "just do it." It's an eclectic mix of state directed socialist economics, nationalist expansionism, social militarization, and whatever particular conceits a regional leader cares to paste on to it; speaking generally, in Hitler's case it was anti-semitism, in Franco's a return to traditional values, and in Mussolini's, order. I suppose "order" is another universal hallmark of fascism, given that it seems a response more than anything to perceived anarchy, but again, that's the "just do it" element at work...the ends take precedence over the means.

[Black Dog]

Ah, so you haven't got a clue. Since there are no greater minds than mine, I assume that the subtext of your pissy snit is "oops, I'm wading into waters too deep for my high school equivalency"?

To borrow form your well-appointed toolbox of passive-aggressive whinging, that sounds like an insult.

As a matter of fact, fascism's ideology, if it can be dignified as such, amounts to little more than "just do it." It's an eclectic mix of state directed socialist economics, nationalist expansionism, social militarization, and whatever particular conceits a regional leader cares to paste on to it; speaking generally, in Hitler's case it was anti-semitism, in Franco's a return to traditional values, and in Mussolini's, order. I suppose "order" is another universal hallmark of fascism, given that it seems a response more than anything to perceived anarchy, but again, that's the "just do it" element at work...the ends take precedence over the means.

See, what you're describing here is nihlism. The bit about "eclectic mix of state directed socialist economics, nationalist expansionism, social militarization," is closer to the heart of the matter, but the rest is just more of your pseudo-academic jibber-jabber, none of which does much to undermine my mockery of your abuse of the term fascism. You probably invoke fascism when someone cuts you off in traffic. So I guess it's appropriate you would latch on to soemthing as shallow as an advertising slogan as a definition.

At this point, we're getting into angels on pinhead territory. You've conflated fascism first with general totalitarianism, and now with a kind of nihlism, but ignored what scholar Roger Griffin called "the central ideological driving force that is (fascism's) only permanent feature: the war against the decadence of society and the struggle for national rebirth." Which is just as well from your point of view, given how closely that core is reflected in your personal political viewpoints. Or, to put it in laymen's terms: you may have smelt it, but you, in fact, dealt it.

Edited September 26, 2007 by Black Dog

[Sulaco]

Ah, so you haven't got a clue. Since there are no greater minds than mine, I assume that the subtext of your pissy snit is "oops, I'm wading into waters too deep for my high school equivalency"? As a matter of fact, fascism's ideology, if it can be dignified as such, amounts to little more than "just do it." It's an eclectic mix of state directed socialist economics, nationalist expansionism, social militarization, and whatever particular conceits a regional leader cares to paste on to it; speaking generally, in Hitler's case it was anti-semitism, in Franco's a return to traditional values, and in Mussolini's, order. I suppose "order" is another universal hallmark of fascism, given that it seems a response more than anything to perceived anarchy, but again, that's the "just do it" element at work...the ends take precedence over the means.

"Action" was a deified concept in fascist Italy. That action was the core of fascism; and from it all policies flowed. Polcies were to be picked on the ground that they permitted the nation-state to move toward its goals. Communitartianism and corporatism - "hallmarks" of fascism were hallmarks only because Mussolini thought they would permit smoother, more efficient, action. Fascism was ultimately an ideology of "pragmatism" - and as with all ultra-pragmatism that just meant personal biases were raised over any principles by being assigned lables of "efficient" and "effective".

That's why I've always loved Nike's campaign.

Edited September 26, 2007 by Sulaco

[Higgly]

Is there anything worse than the passive aggressive who taunts then threatens to go tell his mommy?

Sheesh......

Reported. It just seems to tick you off so much I couldn't resist it.

[Higgly]

Gosh, that's namecalling. I'm sure Higgly will report you though, so I won't bother.

Why would I report him, ScottSA? I'm having too much fun watching him kick your butt.

[jefferiah]

Why can't ScottSA and the Little Cheerleader just get along?

Edited September 28, 2007 by jefferiah

[ScottSA]

"Action" was a deified concept in fascist Italy. That action was the core of fascism; and from it all policies flowed. Polcies were to be picked on the ground that they permitted the nation-state to move toward its goals. Communitartianism and corporatism - "hallmarks" of fascism were hallmarks only because Mussolini thought they would permit smoother, more efficient, action. Fascism was ultimately an ideology of "pragmatism" - and as with all ultra-pragmatism that just meant personal biases were raised over any principles by being assigned lables of "efficient" and "effective".

That's why I've always loved Nike's campaign.

Hitler had a concept of 'revolution' not unlike the Maoist conception of unending social evolution, but matched instead to racial metaphor and a heroic leader figure. That, more than anything, is why he stayed away from all the internal squabbles, and why those squabbles occured in the first place. He saw the German fascist movement as an ongoing dialectic, and for the years he spent out of power he actually fought against any bureaucratic entanglements in the party. Between 1923 and 1930, he was content to "agitate", talking vaguely about some heroic leader to come, and most historians, including Kershaw (arguable the pre-emminent Hitler historian) agree that he didn't see himself as that leader until the 1930s, and then sort of took on the mantle by acclamation. But that's a peculiarity of the German movement from what I can tell, and you're right; the base theology underwriting all fascism is 'action.'

[Michael Hardner]

Scott,

You certainly seem very familiar with this topic. You are indeed a great student of history.

Hitler had a concept of 'revolution' not unlike the Maoist conception of unending social evolution, but matched instead to racial metaphor and a heroic leader figure.

Interesting. I'm reminded of a time that you predicted that black people and white people wouldn't get along, after the 'downfall' happens. I"m not sure if this fits the bill of 'revolution', but I remember you saying that people of a different race (even those that work with me, in my IT company) would effectively be enemies after some coming social catastrophe.

Do you remember that ?

[ScottSA]

Scott,

You certainly seem very familiar with this topic. You are indeed a great student of history.

Interesting. I'm reminded of a time that you predicted that black people and white people wouldn't get along, after the 'downfall' happens. I"m not sure if this fits the bill of 'revolution', but I remember you saying that people of a different race (even those that work with me, in my IT company) would effectively be enemies after some coming social catastrophe.

Do you remember that ?

You are flat out lying Michael.

You have managed to so mangle what I said in an effort to make it sound like Charles Manson or some kind of apocalyptic freakshow that it's actually funny. Piss off you insipid little lowbrow.

[Michael Hardner]

You are flat out lying Michael.

You have managed to so mangle what I said in an effort to make it sound like Charles Manson or some kind of apocalyptic freakshow that it's actually funny. Piss off you insipid little lowbrow.

Scott, whatever you told me came out of some theory of yours that was well thought out - not a spur of the moment idea. Why not share it with us, then, and correct anything that I may have got wrong ?

[ScottSA]

Scott, whatever you told me came out of some theory of yours that was well thought out - not a spur of the moment idea. Why not share it with us, then, and correct anything that I may have got wrong ?

I have a better idea Mikey. Why don't you crawl back under your rock? I'm certainly not going to engage in a serious discussion with you or any other troll. "Whatever" I told you bears no relationship to the bilge you just dumped. Why not put on your goat persona and show your true colors?

[Michael Hardner]

Hey there Scott,

I guess I made the mistake of not having the quote handy this time. No matter. I'll look it up.

I did have the quote with regards to your attitude towards 'brown people' and 'n****' correct last time though, remember ?

So until I come back empty handed, the score is still 1-0.

[ScottSA]

Hey there Scott,

I guess I made the mistake of not having the quote handy this time. No matter. I'll look it up.

I did have the quote with regards to your attitude towards 'brown people' and 'n****' correct last time though, remember ?

So until I come back empty handed, the score is still 1-0.

No Mikey, you're still a lying weasel.

[GostHacked]

Reading some parts of this thread again and it seems to me , that NONE OF US know exactly or even have a slight idea what fascism really is. Eye of the beholder I guess. And since most of us live in an open free society, we are not exposed to the fascism first hand. I doubt any of you really knows what it is like. I sure as hell don't. Living in Canada for all 36 years of my life, I really don't have a clue. Since all I am able to understand about it is from reading about it.

But I will tell you one thing. Democracy does not work either.

How abou this. Can any of you personaly tell us first hand, how and when you encountered fascism?

[Michael Hardner]

Scott,

What I find with your posts is - it's not what you say, but what you don't say that tells me what you're thinking. For instance, you're all dressed up in a cap and gown on this board, and less willing to refer to brown people or use the n-word. That tells me that you're trying to come across as more scholarly, or maybe even more civilized.

As to your philosophy, it's hard to find posts where you post exactly what YOU think. It's easy to find posts where you quote some lecture-or-other by an extreme right-winger lecturing in Belgium. But even those speeches tend to be criticisms of immigration policies or leftists, without saying exactly what the speaker is FOR.

We know that you want to deport Muslims, and from your recent posts you seem to know about Hitler, but it's hard to fill in some of the gaps. We know that you're very smart, yet you insist on posting news stories describing individual Muslim crimes, and seem to pretend that you don't understand why that's an invalid way to draw conclusions about anything.

So, I remember you having some theory about how Canadian society will finally come apart, and that had a racial aspect to it. I spoke about the fact that I worked in a corporate environment that is multi racial, and that the people there were more like each other than they were like others of the same race. Kind of like the computer workers that I work with that are black, Muslim and Jewish are more like each other than they are like people from other countries who share their background.

This is the point that you seized on. Does that sound familiar ?

How about this:

"Tomorrow if the RCMP and all the police forces were to be instantly disbanded, all things being equal, Canada would damned soon regress centuries in its behavioural norms."

What IS your theory ? How will Canadian society inevitably fall apart ?

[M.Dancer]

I have a better idea Mikey. Why don't you crawl back under your rock? I'm certainly not going to engage in a serious discussion with you or any other troll. "Whatever" I told you bears no relationship to the bilge you just dumped. Why not put on your goat persona and show your true colors?

I'll second that. GoatMike is persona non grata. Too many lies and too many broken promises. Go practice your rat cage social science experiments elsewhere, preferably at your own board which you killed.

[M.Dancer]

How abou this. Can any of you personaly tell us first hand, how and when you encountered fascism?

September 1975, Malcolm Campbell High School in the Office is Frau Schultz, Uber Principal. 2nd day of class. I was put on probation given a weeks detention and denied priviledges given to other students because she assumed I was a trouble maker.. I would have got angry and demanded redress, but for some bizarre reason which may have included a nagging and persitant case of virginity, i was mesmorized and captivated by her voluptuous Aryan body. For a week I sat in detntion in the office, looking into her office, at her Valkerie like bosum and giving her my best virgin smile.

[GostHacked]

September 1975, Malcolm Campbell High School in the Office is Frau Schultz, Uber Principal. 2nd day of class. I was put on probation given a weeks detention and denied priviledges given to other students because she assumed I was a trouble maker.. I would have got angry and demanded redress, but for some bizarre reason which may have included a nagging and persitant case of virginity, i was mesmorized and captivated by her voluptuous Aryan body. For a week I sat in detntion in the office, looking into her office, at her Valkerie like bosum and giving her my best virgin smile.

Looks like someone took advantage of a young and naieve M.Dancer. That is not Fascism, that is being young and stupid. Also why you did not stand up for yourself, only lets you facilitate the so called facsism. Care to describe this so called incident in further detail? Nice shot at white supremecy though.

[M.Dancer]

Also why you did not stand up for yourself, only lets you facilitate the so called facsism.

Because I was 15 and Mrs Schultz made me horny. And they had me bang to rights. I had been suspended from that school two years before for "juking" as we called it and expelled form another one the year previously. But I was reformed. I was no longer interested in skipping class and smoking dope or going to the tavern at lunch. I was on a mission, I wanted to get laid and graduate.

And as fate would have it, I eventually did both.

[Michael Hardner]

Morris,

preferably at your own board which you killed.

I'm not sure what you mean here. I don't have my own board, i.e. one that I own. I have a few that I have lent my expertise to, now and again, only to get them on their feet.

Thanks,

mh

[M.Dancer]

Morris,

I'm not sure what you mean here. I don't have my own board, i.e. one that I own. I have a few that I have lent my expertise to, now and again, only to get them on their feet.

Thanks,

mh

You know exactly what I mean so I would prefer your peddle your slander and lies to someone else who you has been a target of your bullshit.