Troop surge in Iraq

[moderateamericain]

While sectarian violence in Iraq is far from anything we can call pacified it has definitely tailed off as we get closer to Ramadan. It appears troop levels are not going to drop off any time soon. It even appears that 12,000 US troops are going on the offensive against Al Qaeda in Northern Iraq. With the curtailing of violence and these new offensive maneuvers designed at pushing foreign insurgents out of Iraq. It may be that the new strategy in Iraq is finally yielding some results after 2 1/2 months. General Petraeus New Letter to the troops can be found here. However congress is not happy and as I write this, General Petraeus is currently being interrogated by congress. You will be happy to know that that the Data I supplied you with is from an Independent source and not from the Government or major news organization.

[M.Dancer]

Well the first .pdf is too long to go into detail, but I recall there has been some issue of what gets counted as insurgent violence........

WASHINGTON - U.S. officials who say there has been a dramatic drop in sectarian violence in Iraq since President Bush began sending more American troops into Baghdad aren't counting one of the main killers of Iraqi civilians.

Car bombs and other explosive devices have killed thousands of Iraqis in the past three years, but the administration doesn't include them in the casualty counts it has been citing as evidence that the surge of additional U.S. forces is beginning to defuse tensions between Shiite and Sunni Muslims.

http://www.newsobserver.com/505/story/567684.html

And if we look at reported fatalities (as reported by independant media) we see no effect on the violence.

Iraqi Cilvilians and Security Killed, by month......

Sep-07 246

Aug-07 1674

Jul-07 1690

Jun-07 1345

May-07 1980

Apr-07 1821

Mar-07 2977

Feb-07 3014

Jan-07 1802

Dec-06 1752

Nov-06 1864

Oct-06 1539

Sep-06 3539

Aug-06 2966

Jul-06 1280

Jun-06 870

May-06 1119

Apr-06 1009

Mar-06 1092

Feb-06 846

Jan-06 779

http://icasualties.org/oif/IraqiDeaths.aspx

[myata]

Check this BBC story too: Iraq Surge Poll. The view appears to be quite different from the other side of the barrel.

[Higgly]

That BBC article is interesting and it is disappointing to see that many news sources - including the CBC - are presenting Petraeus report as fact.

Because the western media was so compliant during the original American invasion, we got very little information about the wholesale slaughter of Iraqi civilians at the hands of American soldiers. This sort of stuff does not go away, even though it may conveniently disappear down the memory hole into which we in the west seem to chuck so many unpleasant truths.

Edited September 10, 2007 by Higgly

[sharkman]

Check this BBC story too: Iraq Surge Poll. The view appears to be quite different from the other side of the barrel.

The BBC is a known left wing organization and they simply can't report the facts without slanting them, much like our CBC. Odd that some lefties would be slagging the mainstream media here though, since they hate Bush too and also fill the airwaves with leftist nonsense. Whatever.

[myata]

And US administration of course is a known world champion of impartiality and truth.

"WMD in Iraq"

"Al-Kaeda in Iraq" NB: before invasion. Now it's certainly there

"Axis of Evil"

And so on (please continue)

[M.Dancer]

The BBC is a known left wing organization and they simply can't report the facts without slanting them, much like our CBC.

Yeah there goes the old attack the messager ploy......

The survey for the BBC, ABC News and NHK of more than 2,000 people across Iraq also suggests that nearly 60% see attacks on US-led forces as justified.

This rises to 93% among Sunni Muslims compared with 50% for Shia.

There's substance to the article. One fact that can't be ignored is that the US hasn't made progress in Iraq.

[sharkman]

Well, the first post had a source that seems to have been doubted as well. Same old same old, who do you believe?

[moderateamericain]

Well, the first post had a source that seems to have been doubted as well. Same old same old, who do you believe?

I included the General's letter as a courtesy for comparison the actual study done was by a University NOT A NEWS AGENCY. If that is not a non biased source I can not begin to think of a place where to find one.

Higgity you dont actually believe American soldiers are "wholesale slaughtering" Iraqi civilians do you?

Edited September 12, 2007 by moderateamericain

[myata]

Well, inclusion of September numbers in the document looks very promising (as a casualty reducing strategy). Given that it's still September, the 12th to be exact as of today (as opposed to when the data were actually collected - 1st?).

Other than that "reduction", the signs of "tailing off" aren't so very obvious.

<added>

BTW, everywhere in this report September numbers are cited on par with any other month of the year, forgetting perhaps? to make any explicit statement that the month is far from being over (or maybe just leaving the Sept. stats out, for that same reason - oh no, most of "tailing off" effect would disappear?). One has to be smart enough to stumble on that single line that tells you that the data are as of Sep 9 - which still doesn't appear even a bit plausible given the fact that the original post with the link is dated Sep.10th and Iraq is such a huge country - how long did it take them to get the election polls in?

These publicity tricks a la T. Blair's infamous 45 minute missile attack threat make me think that maybe this is the same kind of trush. Not because I know anything about university, just on the merits of their "handling" of information.

Edited September 12, 2007 by myata

[White Doors]

You got to wonder if alot on the far left are actually HOPING that the Iraq mission fails.

Their anti-Americansim overwhelms their wish for peace and security for the Iraqi populace.

weird how extremist ideaology can warp the mind isn't it?

Remind you of another group?

[M.Dancer]

You got to wonder if alot on the far left are actually HOPING that the Iraq mission fails.

Their anti-Americansim overwhelms their wish for peace and security for the Iraqi populace.

weird how extremist ideaology can warp the mind isn't it?

Remind you of another group?

With around 1500 civilians and security being killed every month the last thing I hope for is failure. The results of failure will make the current toll seem trivial. What I hope for is a strategy that will work and a leadership that can implement it. I am not optimistic in either case. What is obvious is the strategy to date has not worked and over all. america's presitige, prestige that once would cause a tin pot tyrant to think twice has been tarnished. I don't know what the solution couold be, but abandoning Iraq I'm sure isn't it.

[White Doors]

With around 1500 civilians and security being killed every month the last thing I hope for is failure. The results of failure will make the current toll seem trivial. What I hope for is a strategy that will work and a leadership that can implement it. I am not optimistic in either case. What is obvious is the strategy to date has not worked and over all. america's presitige, prestige that once would cause a tin pot tyrant to think twice has been tarnished. I don't know what the solution couold be, but abandoning Iraq I'm sure isn't it.

Yes well I have never thought that you were a member of the far left. I do disagree though, I think that they are making progress now. From what I have read it is far from perfect, but getting somewhat better. Moveon.org's full page ad before the general even made his speech was from the gutter. I don't think there is even any reasonong to be done with these people anymore. They WANT us to lose and wil fling shit at anyone who thinks it is still possible to win. And yet they pretend to be looking out for the Iraqi's? It just doesn't make any sense.

Libya seems to think that America's 'influence' is still in tact. Not sure what you mean about 'prestige'. The Top Cock is always hated by the far left and was hated before 9/11 and will be hated for far into the future.

[bush_cheney2004]

...Libya seems to think that America's 'influence' is still in tact. Not sure what you mean about 'prestige'. The Top Cock is always hated by the far left and was hated before 9/11 and will be hated for far into the future.

Beats me as well....why are these critics so damn worried about America's "prestige"??? It's a recurring theme, as if putting Saddam in a headlock since 1991 or many other foreign policy decisions were driven by the desire to maintain "prestige". Others have announced that America is already "irrelevant".

[jdobbin]

One week after meeting Bush:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20754861/

The most prominent figure in a U.S.-backed revolt of Sunni sheiks against al-Qaida in Iraq was killed Thursday by a bomb planted near his home in Anbar province, 10 days after he met with President Bush, police and tribal leaders said.

Abdul-Sattar Abu Risha was leader of the Anbar Salvation Council, also known as the Anbar Awakening — an alliance of clans backing the Iraqi government and U.S. forces.

Officials said his assassination would be a huge setback for U.S. efforts in Iraq, because it sends a message to others who are cooperating with coalition forces or thinking about cooperating against al-Qaida.

And this is why every week shows some sort of setback.

[M.Dancer]

Beats me as well....why are these critics so damn worried about America's "prestige"??? It's a recurring theme, as if putting Saddam in a headlock since 1991 or many other foreign policy decisions were driven by the desire to maintain "prestige". Others have announced that America is already "irrelevant".

America's prestige, or more accurately, America's military prestige and reputation have suffered. The days when a Reagan could send a subtle hint and hostages would be released are gone. Now instead you have petty tyrants be so brazen as to smuggle the weapons into iraq that are killing americans and they aren't really concerned about the American response.

[bush_cheney2004]

America's prestige, or more accurately, America's military prestige and reputation have suffered. The days when a Reagan could send a subtle hint and hostages would be released are gone. Now instead you have petty tyrants be so brazen as to smuggle the weapons into iraq that are killing americans and they aren't really concerned about the American response.

How ironic...there is example where weapons changed hands for hostage release (Lebanon - 1983), not so scary was Ronald Reagan (Marines left after the barracks bombing). America remains the most powerful nation on earth, with China and Russia scrambling again in the face of unchecked "invasion" against Soviet equipped obsolescence.

The Canadians pony up big loonies for American kit, but that will never lead to your definition of "prestige".

The real deal has nothing to do with "prestige", imagined or real. It has to do with the will to act.

[M.Dancer]

The real deal has nothing to do with "prestige", imagined or real. It has to do with the will to act.

I don't think anyone questions anymore whether american has the will...it's the skill that's in doubt.

[AngusThermopyle]

The Canadians pony up big loonies for American kit, but that will never lead to your definition of "prestige".

Actually the American military is buying more Canadian kit than ever. We don't use very much American kit at all. In my 20 years I cant recall using any. The closest would be our C7 rifles. The basic design is the same but they've been extensively modified. In fact the U.S. Military is interested in purchasing the rights to use the same mods on their assault rifles as they are far more durable and reliable.

[jdobbin]

Here is one benchmark for the surge.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6983841.stm

About 70% of Iraqis believe security has deteriorated in the area covered by the US military "surge" of the past six months, an opinion poll suggests.

The survey for the BBC, ABC News and NHK of more than 2,000 people across Iraq also suggests that nearly 60% see attacks on US-led forces as justified.

This rises to 93% among Sunni Muslims compared with 50% for Shia.

The findings come as the top US commander in Iraq, Gen David Petraeus, prepares to address Congress.

A day after the President's speech, a report comes out.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/stor...6921210,00.html

A new White House report on Iraq shows slim progress, moving just one more political and security goal into the satisfactory column: efforts to let former members of Saddam Hussein's Baath Party to rejoin the political process, a senior administration official told The Associated Press.

The latest conclusions, to be released Friday, largely track a comparable poor assessment in July on 18 benchmarks. The earlier White House report said the Iraqi government had made satisfactory gains toward eight benchmarks, unsatisfactory marks on eight and mixed results on two.

Congress required President Bush to submit the report to lawmakers, assessing whether the Iraqi government had made progress toward achieving the 18 goals. In the new report, the Iraqi government showed positive movement on only one of the benchmarks.

[bush_cheney2004]

Actually the American military is buying more Canadian kit than ever. We don't use very much American kit at all. In my 20 years I cant recall using any. The closest would be our C7 rifles. The basic design is the same but they've been extensively modified. In fact the U.S. Military is interested in purchasing the rights to use the same mods on their assault rifles as they are far more durable and reliable.

Ummmm...OK....how many rifle mods can one buy for the price of four C-17 Globemaster IIIs?

Or Laser guided bombs?

Or GPS enabled guidance, sensor, and targeting suites?

Or Mk46 torpedoes?

Or Hercules medium lift aircraft?

Or Harpoon missiles?

Or Sea Sparrow VLS?

Or Phalanx CIWS?

Or LM2500 gas turbines?

Or F/A-18 strike aircraft?

Or M113 APCs?

Or M19 60mm mortars?

Or M2 Browning .50 Cal "Ma Deuce" heavy machine guns?

Or Iridium Satellite Phones?

Or Harris Falcon digital radios?

Or Excalibur 155mm GPS guided munitions?

Or 6x4M-Gator ATVs?

[AngusThermopyle]

You do have a valid point. We also purchase the rights to other nations tech developments. However, as I said, the U.S. does as well, it's certainly not a one sided exchange.

We used to develop and manufacture a lot of major equipment in Canada, unfortunatelly successive governments ran that entire segment of industry into the ground. Things are changing for the better lately though. Harper is actually a friend to such industries, as opposed to the hostile stance taken by other parties on this issue.

Military procurement is far from being a one way street, it always involves a certain degree of give and take.

[Guest American Woman]

(bush_cheney2004 @ Sep 14 2007, 01:37 PM) *

The real deal has nothing to do with "prestige", imagined or real. It has to do with the will to act.

I don't think anyone questions anymore whether american has the will...it's the skill that's in doubt.

I'm not so sure it's the skill that in doubt, but the method. If the wrong method of dealing with a problem is chosen, all the skill one possesses in that area means nothing. So it's more a matter qf questioning the decsions that have been made.

And bc2004, I don't think a nation refers to a military action as "shock and awe" if it's only about "will." Of course we were trying to impress more than our "will to act" upon them. It would appear as if we were trying to give a show of strength more than a show of will.

[bush_cheney2004]

And bc2004, I don't think a nation refers to a military action as "shock and awe" if it's only about "will." Of course we were trying to impress more than our "will to act" upon them. It would appear as if we were trying to give a show of strength more than a show of will.

Doesn't matter either way, as the "shock and awe" started way back in 1991, when France, Russia and China saw their proxy systems and tactics destroyed in a matter of weeks. This sent a collective "OH Sh_T" through defense departments getting cozy with an assumed peace dividend. The Americans never looked back, wiring the sky for so called "full spectrum dominance". Still, President Bush had to go to war in 2001 with the watered down force levels left by Senior and Clinton.

Libya turned themselves in to the "authorities" at once.

[M.Dancer]

I don't think anyone questions anymore whether american has the will...it's the skill that's in doubt.

I'm not so sure it's the skill that in doubt, but the method. If the wrong method of dealing with a problem is chosen, all the skill one possesses in that area means nothing.

That's what I meant. ....but skill ryhmes with will better than application.

The US certainly had the ability to crush Iraq.....but not the "skill set" needed to handle the victory.