This is America!

[bush_cheney2004]

Exactly. And you said "What Dubya lacks in Mensa rating is more than made up for by intestinal fortitude. Be it the 'Best and brightest' or 'Whiz Kids', there is no substitute for leadership."

And my point is, leadership in itself, is nothing. I was refuting your claim that "there is no substitute for leadership." I cited Hitler as an example. And your problem with that is what, exactly?

I didn't have any problem with what I had already stated. Your attempt to undermine the character trait of leadership (alone) by invoking Hitler failed. Those of us who ride these forums recognize such tactics immediately.

[Guest American Woman]

I didn't have any problem with what I had already stated. Your attempt to undermine the character trait of leadership (alone) by invoking Hitler failed.

Really? So to your way of thinking my providing Hitler as an example of a bad leader didn't undermine the character trait of leadership alone. So one can only assume that since Hitler did indeed "lead," it must have been a good thing. Same with Stalin, Mao, Saddam, Idi Amin, etc. They all led, so that "(alone)" was wonderful.

Those of us who ride these forums recognize such tactics immediately.

I guess I have more faith in most of "those ... who ride these forums" than you do.

[jbg]

Back to topic, and away from Godwin's law, why don't Canadians have the same pride in their country as is common in the US (link).

[bush_cheney2004]

Back to topic, and away from Godwin's law, why don't Canadians have the same pride in their country as is common in the US (link).

natch....because that would be too 'merkin! Operating paradigm for many (nor all) Canadians is to use America as a foil to help define themselves. Accordingly, any such "pride" cannot take on the trappings of such American expression.

[Peter F]

Back to topic, and away from Godwin's law, why don't Canadians have the same pride in their country as is common in the US (link).

cause were not Americans. Ergo we don't have American pride in our country...I guess since the article you linked talks about the joy of free speech and nothing else. Personally I'm not particularly proud about free speech. Just like I'm not particularly proud of the air I breath or water I drink or pot I piss in.

Its a weird concept you speak of; Pride in your ability to speak.

What is so outstanding about Americans speaking freely as opposed to anyone else?

And what is this American pride you speak of? How is it different from Canadian pride or Ugandan pride or Pakistani pride?

[Guest American Woman]

And what is this American pride you speak of? How is it different from Canadian pride or Ugandan pride or Pakistani pride?

I think this site is an interesting read, and this excerpt provides a pretty good answer to your question:

"Polling organizations routinely find that Americans display the highest degree of national pride among Western democracies. Researchers at the University of Chicago reported that before the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, 90 percent of the Americans surveyed agreed with the statement 'I would rather be a citizen of America than of any other country in the world'; 38 percent endorsed the view that 'The world would be a better place if people from other countries were more like the Americans.' (After the terrorist attacks, 97 and 49 percent, respectively, agreed with the same statements.) The World Values Survey reported similar results, with more than 70 percent of those surveyed declaring themselves 'very proud' to be Americans."

"By comparison, the same survey revealed that less than half of the people in other Western democracies—including France, Italy, Denmark, Great Britain, and the Netherlands—felt 'very proud' of their nationalities. That does not mean that the average French, Italian, Danish, British, and so worth citizens do not feel proud to be citizens of their prospective nations, but what made them different from American Nationalists is the tendency to flaunt and brag about it. "

"We Americans not only take enormous pride in the superiority our values but also regard them as universally applicable. According to the Pew Global Attitudes survey, 79 percent of the Americans polled agreed that 'It’s good that American ideas and customs are spreading around the world'; 70 percent said they 'like American ideas about democracy.' These views, however, are not widely shared, even in Western Europe, another bastion of liberalism and democracy. Pew found that, among the Western European countries surveyed, less than 40 percent endorse the spread of American ideas and customs, and less than 50 percent like American ideas about democracy."

[jbg]

cause were not Americans. Ergo we don't have American pride in our country...I guess since the article you linked talks about the joy of free speech and nothing else. Personally I'm not particularly proud about free speech. Just like I'm not particularly proud of the air I breath or water I drink or pot I piss in.

Its a weird concept you speak of; Pride in your ability to speak.

What is so outstanding about Americans speaking freely as opposed to anyone else?

And what is this American pride you speak of? How is it different from Canadian pride or Ugandan pride or Pakistani pride?

Why is it something to be proud of? Because it shows that people can be treated as adults, and you wind up with a beautiful and productive country, not chaos. In fact, the ability of Americans, in general, to do what they want to do (albeit without much help or hindrance from the government) has allowed the States to progress as far as they have.

[jester]

Nature made America beautiful not Americans. Where adult Americans have had unrestricted use of the country it usually turned out pretty messy, look up pollution in America.......

[guyser]

Nature made America beautiful not Americans. Where adult Americans have had unrestricted use of the country it usually turned out pretty messy, look up pollution in America.......

Why when all I have to do is look out my window and see good old Canadian pollution?

[jbg]

Nature made America beautiful not Americans. Where adult Americans have had unrestricted use of the country it usually turned out pretty messy, look up pollution in America.......

The America I saw tonight was thousands of Jewish worshipers assembling peacefully and reverently to atone for sins at Yom Kippur. A darn sight better than what the Germans had to offer on November 12-13, 1938 in Germany. Or what almost any other country has to offer, even now. Canada, proudly, is one of those few. Edited September 22, 2007 by jbg

[Argus]

I would like to add that even in these so-called free speech countries so far discussed there are limits. We have libel, defamation and slander laws that make things that are said actually illegal. You cannot threaten the life of the president, even in jest, so far as I am aware.

Hate speech is a logical extension of defamation or slander, in that it attempts to not only attack a group prejudiciously but also to foster hate and spread violence.

Hate speech is criminalizing speech that you don't like. It is not a logical extension of libel or defamation in that those laws are based on the damage, in the main part, the monetary damage to an individual caused by falsehoods. They are not based on hurt feelings or the presumption that at some point someone might act criminally in response to the speech. You would be better off comparing it to laws advocating violence against people. But there too, a line has been drawn. You cannot tell people that Mr. Smith is evil and must be killed and advise them to do it. You can, however, tell people he is evil and why.

Hate speech curtails opinions and statements of fact regarding groups where no monetary damage is caused. If I say I hate Black people. Black people are all violent criminals etc." I'm not damaging any individual. I'm simply angering some and hurting the feelings of others. And I don't think we should criminalize speech simply because it hurts someone's feelings or angers someone.

BTW, the shred of justification for hate speech laws - that they will contribute to a racist atmosphere and cause racial violence - goes up in smoke as soon as you look at Europe, which has far weightier laws against hate speech - and far worse racial violence than we've ever had. It is my opinion that these sorts of laws, combined with other laws made to "protect" minorities have largely resulted in those minorities feeling like outsiders - and being seen as outsiders by the general populace, and have in fact, had the opposite affect - causing racism and violence between races.

[Argus]

Back to topic, and away from Godwin's law, why don't Canadians have the same pride in their country as is common in the US (link).

Because Canadians are told again and again and again that they are nothing special, that all countries and cultures are equal, and that we are not superior to anyone in any way. To suggest that we are in any way superior to, say, illiterate, witch burning natives in the jungles of Uganda would be RACIST. Ack!

Edited September 22, 2007 by Argus

[Leafless]

Because Canadians are told again and again and again that they are nothing special, that all countries and cultures are equal, and that we are not superior to anyone in any way. To suggest that we are in any way superior to, say, illiterate, witch burning natives in the jungles of Uganda would be RACIST. Ack!

You have just uncovered the Liberal secrets how to sway Canadians to accept 'Official Languages' and 'Official Multiculturalism'.

[Guest coot]

Because Canadians are told again and again and again that they are nothing special, that all countries and cultures are equal, and that we are not superior to anyone in any way. To suggest that we are in any way superior to, say, illiterate, witch burning natives in the jungles of Uganda would be RACIST. Ack!

Why do you have to feel superior in order to feel adequate? I think, by definition, racism is thinking one race is superior to another. You can debate whether this is a correct or an incorrect pholosophy, but to whine and use excessive font size because one's ideas are labelled what they are seems unnecessarily defensive.

[Guest American Woman]

Nature made America beautiful not Americans. Where adult Americans have had unrestricted use of the country it usually turned out pretty messy, look up pollution in America.......

Yep. America has pollution. Unlike any other major city in the world, our cities have pollution. And of course Americans are so messy. Every citizen of every other country is just neat as a pin. No littering for them. Only in America.

Guess you haven't seen too much of our country, or too much of yours, for that matter.

So let me tell you about my Saturday afternoon. I've been sitting out on my patio reading under an impossibly blue sky, listening to nothing but the birds, breathing pure air without so much of a trace of pollution, totally enjoying the tranquillity of my yard and my perfect little house, which I own. If you are in such a place yourself, consider yourself fortunate, as I do.

It seems there are a few on this board who feel the need to take digs at Americans. Americans are messy, Americans shop so obviously they don't care about others, Americans believe in God and believe that he created heaven and earth so therefore they are dumb as rocks, Americans have no morals.

Why do those of you who cut down America/Americans feel that need? I mean, justifiable criticism is one thing. I'll even back you up on it. But the examples I gave are just hard to figure.

Edited September 22, 2007 by American Woman

[betsy]

Well I don't know what the big deal is all about Jbg's post. I find it heart-warming.

And he's just expressing himself...freely. Surely there couldn't be anything wrong with expressing one's patriotism and pride for one's own country, is there?

And for such commotion coming from you American Woman, who ironically is whining about your own so-called non-existent freedom of speech. Granted you may not feel the same way as he does about your own country....at least let him have his moment in peace.

Perhaps that's the reason why you have a free speech zone? So no one can rant-dump on anyone anytime and anywhere they please?

[betsy]

Speaking of Bush, I saw his latest press conference. He's a charmer! He knows how to play with the media...and the press couldn't resist finding him amusing.

One reporter asked: Do you see yourself as an asset or liability to the Republican presidential candidate?

Bush promptly answered without batting an eyelash: A definite asset!

A few seconds lapsed...I guess the reporter was taken by surprise by Bush's quick response.

Then the reporter asked: Can you follow that up?

And Bush answered, along with the right tone and facial expression: Noooo!

Then moved on to the next reporter. And you could see the grin on the faces of the other reporters.

Edited September 23, 2007 by betsy

[Guest American Woman]

Well I don't know what the big deal is all about Jbg's post. I find it heart-warming.

And he's just expressing himself...freely. Surely there couldn't be anything wrong with expressing one's patriotism and pride for one's own country, is there?

And for such commotion coming from you American Woman, who ironically is whining about your own so-called non-existent freedom of speech. Granted you may not feel the same way as he does about your own country....at least let him have his moment in peace.

Perhaps that's the reason why you have a free speech zone? So no one can rant-dump on anyone anytime and anywhere they please?

Perhaps you should re-read my posts so you actually understand what the free speech zone is-- and then read the links I provided about Little Gitmo. You might learn something. But something tells me you'd rather just LOL away, so knock yourself out.

[betsy]

But something tells me you'd rather just LOL away, so knock yourself out.

I will. Cos I truly find it funny!

[jbg]

Why do you have to feel superior in order to feel adequate? I think, by definition, racism is thinking one race is superior to another. You can debate whether this is a correct or an incorrect pholosophy, but to whine and use excessive font size because one's ideas are labelled what they are seems unnecessarily defensive.

Because what Canada has to offer is superior to what 99% of the world has to offer. Is that enough of a reason? (And I am not Canadian, note).

[jbg]

Perhaps you should re-read my posts so you actually understand what the free speech zone is-- and then read the links I provided about Little Gitmo. You might learn something. But something tells me you'd rather just LOL away, so knock yourself out.

And one question; isn't Gitmo better than the "trials" that Iran conducts on grounds on "corruption on the earth" and "warring with G-d and his emissaries"?

[Guest American Woman]

And one question; isn't Gitmo better than the "trials" that Iran conducts on grounds on "corruption on the earth" and "warring with G-d and his emissaries"?

I wasn't referring to Gitmo in this thread, I was referring to "Little Gitmo." I don't see how you can go on about our freedoms and not object when something like that happens.

As for the rest of your post, I'm not into 'moral equivilizing' when determining if something is wrong. If something is wrong, it's wrong. The fact that worse happens doesn't make it right. Also, I have high standards for my country; standards that I think we should be living up to, not merely claiming to live up to.

[jbg]

I wasn't referring to Gitmo in this thread, I was referring to "Little Gitmo."

I give up. What is "Little Gitmo"?

As for the rest of your post, I'm not into 'moral equivilizing' when determining if something is wrong. If something is wrong, it's wrong. The fact that worse happens doesn't make it right. Also, I have high standards for my country; standards that I think we should be living up to, not merely claiming to live up to.

That is hardly moral equivalizing. To be fair, you have to compare apples to apples. These are wartime conditions. The "komitehs" do not operate under wartime conditions.

[Guest American Woman]

I give up. What is "Little Gitmo"?

I already posted links to two really good sites about Little Gitmo in this thread. Here they are again:

"Gitmo on the Hudson"

Notes From the RNC - The 8/31 Experience

That is hardly moral equivalizing.

Yes, it most definitely is moral equivilizing. Furthermore, I don't set the standards for my country on what other nations do, and as I already said, I expect my nation to live up to the standards it claims to live up to.

Edited September 24, 2007 by American Woman

[jbg]

I already posted links to two really good sites about Little Gitmo in this thread. Here they are again:

"Gitmo on the Hudson"

Notes From the RNC - The 8/31 Experience

Yes, it most definitely is moral equivilizing. Furthermore, I don't set the standards for my country on what other nations do, and as I already said, I expect my nation to live up to the standards it claims to live up to.

What about the word "war" don't you understand?

As far as "Little Gitmo" al I had to do was look at the caption. Do you really think NYC was going to let its day in the sun as a convention host get spoiled by creeps imported, in some cases, from other countries to make trouble? There were reasonable accomodations made for those demonstrations.