Universities will provide Muslim footbaths

[B. Max]

I'm not saying it's right, but I suppose if it's a big deal then people could always choose another school?

I think people who can't adapt to our country's culture should find one more to their liking. Pakistan perhaps?

Incompatible cultures will never adapt.

[sharkman]

This isn't about religion; it's about safety. The university clearly stated that. On the other hand, Christmas displays and posting the Ten Commandments are about religion.

Nonsense, it's about the State providing for a religious ritual. The separation of church and state is being ignored in this case.

It's not about safety, that's just window dressing. Why can't these students wash their feet at home, or in a student shower facility.

Edited August 2, 2007 by sharkman

[gc1765]

We have a right to try to keep what we buiilt. We do not need to surrender to dhimmitude.

I'm sure other cultures are saying the exact same thing.

[gc1765]

Because this sort of attitude starts us down a slippery slope towards Kimmy having to be covered neck to ankle to go out in public.

-k

I agree with you...however, I'm sure those cultures feel the same way about our culture as we do about theirs.

[Guest American Woman]

This isn't about religion; it's about safety. The university clearly stated that. On the other hand, Christmas displays and posting the Ten Commandments are about religion.

Nonsense, it's about the State providing for a religious ritual. The separation of church and state is being ignored in this case.

It's not about safety, that's just window dressing. Why can't these students wash their feet at home, or in a student shower facility.

So you don't think a wet, slippery floor is a danger? You don't think sinks coming apart from the wall is a problem? I'm guessing you would be complaining if you had to deal with those conditions in a university bathroom and I'm guessing you'd be pretty angry if you slipped and hurt yourself.

Yes, it's about safety, even though you have decided it's not. The students can't wash their feet at home because they have to be washed right before they pray.

Like I said, I can't believe this is even news, much less something someone would get upset about; some of the comments are off the wall.

[gc1765]

Like I said, I can't believe this is even news, much less something someone would get upset about; some of the comments are off the wall.

I wonder if some of those same people are upset that they have to pay more for wheelchair accessible washrooms as well?

[guyser]

Yes, it's about safety, even though you have decided it's not. The students can't wash their feet at home because they have to be washed right before they pray.

Like I said, I can't believe this is even news, much less something someone would get upset about; some of the comments are off the wall.

Quite right AW. You only have to project to see what the same troglodytes would say when the lawsuit is won by the students.

Their risk management team probably told them, $25,000 now or $250,000 and up next year. And while the repairs to the sinks are probably $23,000 , the 2 grand to put a sink near the floor is peanuts.

But it doesnt stop people from their spouting now does it ?

[kimmy]

Because this sort of attitude starts us down a slippery slope towards Kimmy having to be covered neck to ankle to go out in public.

I agree with you...however, I'm sure those cultures feel the same way about our culture as we do about theirs.

I'm sure they do. But why should I give a crap?

The question you asked is:

Why should they adapt to your culture, why shouldn't you adapt to theirs?

...and my answer is that any "adaptation" which restricts my personal choices is completely unacceptable to me.

It is irrelevant to me if some guy needs to wash his feet 5 times a day while he's at work or school. That's not "me adapting to their culture". That's me not giving a crap what a guy does with his own time.

Propose some ways in which I would "adapt to their culture" which would not result in a restriction of my personal choices. Let's hear some examples of the kind of "adapting" that you think is reasonable.

-k

[gc1765]

Let's hear some examples of the kind of "adapting" that you think is reasonable.

Sure, as soon as you can give me some examples of the type of adapting other cultures should do (aside from following the law and speaking one official language - something that I have said many times). I have wondered for quite some time what people meant when they said that other cultures should "adapt" (I even considered starting a thread on it), so I'd like to open this question up to anyone who thinks they have an answer.

Edited August 2, 2007 by gc1765

[kimmy]

Let's hear some examples of the kind of "adapting" that you think is reasonable.

Sure, as soon as you can give me some examples of the type of adapting other cultures should do (aside from following the law and speaking one official language - something that I have said many times). I have wondered for quite some time what people meant when they said that other cultures should "adapt" (I even considered starting a thread on it), so I'd like to open this question up to anyone who thinks they have an answer.

-learn an official language.

-respect and obey Canadian law.

-abandon efforts to have Sharia granted legal standing in Canada

-accept that Canadians have the right to free expression.

-don't travel to foreign lands to fight in religious crusades.

(-...and don't fight alongside terrorists either.)

(-...or fight against governments that Canada has no quarrel with.)

I could make mention of stuff that's happened in other western democracies, like Muslims in Australia chasing others off of public beaches so that Muslim women could bath without being "defiled" by the gaze of "infidels". Or Muslims in European countries who have taken legal action to have centuries-old statues of boars and owls taken down, because apparently pork and owls are "offensive". Or incidents where Muslim men have interpreted western womens' lack of concealment as an invitation to sexual violence. I could go on, but I think you get the picture.

This is not simply a failure to "obey the law". It is a failure of some to recognize that their right to their faith and their culture does not trump the rights of others.

Now it is your turn. Explain what ways you feel that Kimmy should "adapt" to their culture.

-k

[capricorn]

I have wondered for quite some time what people meant when they said that other cultures should "adapt" (I even considered starting a thread on it), so I'd like to open this question up to anyone who thinks they have an answer.

Many native-born Canadians have complained over the last few years about the trend toward removing "Merry Christmas" or other references to the Christian faith in the celebration of Christmas. This became so ridiculous as to renaming the Christmas tree to a Holiday tree. Most commercial establishments responded by substituting the Merry Christmas greeting with the Happy Holidays greeting for fear of alienating non-Christian shoppers.

Many Christians think that other faiths should simply accept (be tolerant?) of the fact that Christmas for most Christians is in fact a religious holiday.

Yet, I don't blame non-Christians for this turn of events. I blame this on a leftist view that Christians should not offend the sensibilities of other faiths. In other words, I am not convinced that this pressure came from non-Christians but from a political ideology that the oppressed groups are non-Christians and that this oppression must be stamped out.

This is but one example. I believe there is also animosity caused by the fact that The Lords Prayer has been removed from being recited in public schools (in Ontario anyways). Again, because this prayer was seen as offending the sensibilities of non-Christian faiths.

I think the above in part explains why many native-born Canadians are upset that they must be tolerant and accepting of the rituals of the faiths of others when they feel they must abandon their own religious rituals. I really don't think there is a level playing field. Again, I blame this on political leftist ideology.

[Bonam]

Commercial establishments can and should be able to put up any references to any religion that they want. If a store wants to put up a sign saying Merry Christmas, it's not the governments business telling them that they can't. If another store wants to put up a happy Ramadan (or whatever else) sign, that, too, should be allowable. If some stores want to change their signs in an effort to appeal to a larger amount of customers, then there is also nothing wrong with that. That's just a natural consequence of a free market capitalist economic system and a changing demographic.

However, when it comes to schools, especially public schools, I firmly believe that no prayer of any religion should be recited. Indoctrination of school children in unverifiable beliefs and their associated rituals cannot be justified.

As for the footbaths... couldn't they just have put in normal shower and/or bath stalls instead? Make it useful for everyone instead of a subgroup of university students? Personally, if I was a student at that university, and wasn't planning to use footbaths myself, I'd be somewhat resentful over my tuition money being spent on them.

Edited August 2, 2007 by Bonam

[Guest American Woman]

Yet, I don't blame non-Christians for this turn of events. I blame this on a leftist view that Christians should not offend the sensibilities of other faiths. In other words, I am not convinced that this pressure came from non-Christians but from a political ideology that the oppressed groups are non-Christians and that this oppression must be stamped out.

Evidently all this hullabaloo over two footbaths came about because of conservative bloggers. The students are evidently fine with it, the staff is evidently fine with it, the taxpayers don't have to pay for it; yet here people are all worked up over it. Says a lot. Says we have it too damn good that we can spend our time obsessing over something so trivial.

My advice: Get over it! Concern yourselves with something that actually matters.

[sharkman]

Yes, and I suppose the students who want to wash their feet could just 'get over' it. Not really. And despite what you may feel, it's not unreasonable for some to feel concerned about this mixing of church and state. Again, they could wash and pray at home before school then after. If Allah can't understand they are in a land of infidels who don't have footbaths everywhere, maybe Allah needs a time out.

[FascistLibertarian]

This is not simply a failure to "obey the law". It is a failure of some to recognize that their right to their faith and their culture does not trump the rights of others.

I think you have this problem a lot more than most muslims.

-learn an official language.

-respect and obey Canadian law.

-abandon efforts to have Sharia granted legal standing in Canada

What immigrants do you know that were born here that dont know french or english?

Who is trying to do this. A lot more christians want to have the 10 commandments brought back. But you respect their right to freedom of expression, bc your a bigot.

-accept that Canadians have the right to free expression.

So do they. Could you provide examples other than yourself that want to limit this?

-don't travel to foreign lands to fight in religious crusades.

Examples? Compared to Canadians in the Spanish Civil War?

(-...and don't fight alongside terrorists either.)

(-...or fight against governments that Canada has no quarrel with.)

So dont get involed at all in anything ever eh?

I could make mention of stuff that's happened in other western democracies, like Muslims in Australia chasing others off of public beaches so that Muslim women could bath without being "defiled" by the gaze of "infidels". Or Muslims in European countries who have taken legal action to have centuries-old statues of boars and owls taken down, because apparently pork and owls are "offensive". Or incidents where Muslim men have interpreted western womens' lack of concealment as an invitation to sexual violence. I could go on, but I think you get the picture.

Have you been to Australia? You dont know what the heck your talking about.

Over there most white people are as big bigots as you are.

[gc1765]

-learn an official language.

-respect and obey Canadian law.

-abandon efforts to have Sharia granted legal standing in Canada

-accept that Canadians have the right to free expression.

-don't travel to foreign lands to fight in religious crusades.

(-...and don't fight alongside terrorists either.)

(-...or fight against governments that Canada has no quarrel with.)

I could make mention of stuff that's happened in other western democracies, like Muslims in Australia chasing others off of public beaches so that Muslim women could bath without being "defiled" by the gaze of "infidels". Or Muslims in European countries who have taken legal action to have centuries-old statues of boars and owls taken down, because apparently pork and owls are "offensive". Or incidents where Muslim men have interpreted western womens' lack of concealment as an invitation to sexual violence. I could go on, but I think you get the picture.

I agree to all of that, as I have said before.

This is not simply a failure to "obey the law".

How so? I said everyone should obey the law. The examples you provide are examples of people breaking the law (or at the very least, things that should be against the law). The only exception is the story about Muslims suing over the cartoons. However, frivolous lawsuits are hardly exclusive to Muslims.

Now it is your turn. Explain what ways you feel that Kimmy should "adapt" to their culture.

Still waiting to hear an example that does not involve breaking the law...

edit: they don't even have to be real examples, hypotheticals would work too.

Edited August 2, 2007 by gc1765

[gc1765]

Many native-born Canadians have complained over the last few years about the trend toward removing "Merry Christmas" or other references to the Christian faith in the celebration of Christmas.

I think Christians should be free to display "Merry Christmas", just as Jews should be free to display "Happy Hanukkah", Muslims be free to display "Happy Ramadan" and Satanists be allowed to display "Satan loves you", etc...

Yet, I don't blame non-Christians for this turn of events. I blame this on a leftist view that Christians should not offend the sensibilities of other faiths.

In other words, this has nothing to do with other cultures adapting?

[jbg]

The university also said it was a safety issue for both Muslim and non-Muslim students.

A safety issue? Let's see, if people need to pray five times a day, and need a special ritual that has unsafe methods of preparation, maybe they should bend the religion a bit. Ever hear of "Reform Judaism"?The fact that people are uncouth enough to stick their feet into a sink shouldn't require Talibanizing a school.

[jbg]

JBG, of course not. Well, that is not what you had let us to believe. According to all you other posts, Canada is the big bad multi cultural bogeyman, pandering to the desires of every minority group, while the U.S is an allusion to the ideal, a nation of integration and cultural homogeneity.

I don't want my country heading down the wrong road here. My ancestors, my wife's ancestors, and practically all Jewish immigrants came to the US and Canada speaking only Yiddish. Now, almost all speak English (in the US) or one of Canada's three official languages (in Canada). Our cultures are, on the outside, indistinguishable from those of the majority people.

Why should we accomodate the customs of people who come here voluntarily, and now want to change us into a parody of their motherlands? I"m sorry, but Pakistan is not my model for a country

Choose your Canada!!! (Paul Martin ads, 2005-6)

Edited August 2, 2007 by jbg

[gc1765]

The fact that people are uncouth enough to stick their feet into a sink shouldn't require Talibanizing a school.

jbg, you are one of the smartest posters here, don't make yourself look less intelligent by comments like this.

note: if you want to edit your post, I'll edit mine as well and we can pretend the whole thing never happened.

[jbg]

It's not about safety, that's just window dressing. Why can't these students wash their feet at home, or in a student shower facility.

Sharkman, wasn't that you standing in the sink at the Tim Hortons in Vancouver?

[jbg]

We have a right to try to keep what we buiilt. We do not need to surrender to dhimmitude.

I'm sure other cultures are saying the exact same thing.

Except that a Christian in Saudi Arabia is begging for their life, not to control the host country.

[gc1765]

deleted

Edited August 2, 2007 by gc1765

[jbg]

So you don't think a wet, slippery floor is a danger? You don't think sinks coming apart from the wall is a problem? I'm guessing you would be complaining if you had to deal with those conditions in a university bathroom and I'm guessing you'd be pretty angry if you slipped and hurt yourself.

I totally agree. Someone who sticks their feet into the sink at a university is a vandal, and should be suspended or expelled (unless they're washing after a deep cut).

[Bonam]

one of Canada's three official languages

We have three?