A Tangible Benefit of Morally Supporting the Troops

[M.Dancer]

Last weekend, thousands of people came to line overpasses between Trenton and Toronto to pay their respects to the bodies of Capt. Dawe and the five others. Tara Dawe said she will never forget the journey.

"I have lost the love of my life and the father of my child. ... But a moment like this would have made Matt proud and that's going to help me to heal," she said, her voice shaking.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...y/National/home

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...tory/Front/home

I have nothing to add to Capt Dawes courage and nothing to help diminish his wifes grief but if doing only something trivial will help their survivors have strength, I want to know what it is.

Edited July 12, 2007 by M.Dancer

[August1991]

Here's a link to a video.

[guyser]

Although related to CDN soldiers but a bit off topic, this makes for a good read.

http://www.cornwallismuseum.ca/TributetoCanada.html

It is from a British newspaper (I think) If someone can make that a hot link I would appreciate it.

[White Doors]

Here's a link to a video.

Now THAT makes me proud to be Canadian.

Excellent job!

[jazzer]

Let's hope their deaths won't be in vain.

[M.Dancer]

Here's a link to a video.

That really chokes me up.

[White Doors]

Question - Is it allowable, or considered in good manners, for a civilian to salute on these occasions or can only other solders and veterans do so?

Anyone know?

[M.Dancer]

Question - Is it allowable, or considered in good manners, for a civilian to salute on these occasions or can only other solders and veterans do so?

Anyone know?

certainly allowable, but tacky.

Double tacky if you are bare headed.

[White Doors]

Question - Is it allowable, or considered in good manners, for a civilian to salute on these occasions or can only other solders and veterans do so?

Anyone know?

certainly allowable, but tacky.

Double tacky if you are bare headed.

Ahhh.. so not considered good manners.

thanks, I was thinking that, but wasn't sure.

So, hats in hand for civilians and berets on for soldiers and veterans who salute.

Gotcha, thanks Ann.

[ScottSA]

Question - Is it allowable, or considered in good manners, for a civilian to salute on these occasions or can only other solders and veterans do so?

Anyone know?

Civilians are supposed to put their hats over their hearts with their right hand. In the absence of a hat, the left foot should be wound around the... the right hand will do.

[KO2]

Every year on rememberence day, I remember what courage these ordinary men who fought in wars have.

Think of the courage it took to climb out of a trench and lead your men through no-man's land breathing in with a heaving chest, thinking of mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters.

The adrenaline fueled rush into air alive with high speed steel and high explosives.

When I glimpse action happening today on the tube I see young men who are proffessional soldiers eager to do their duty in an honourable fashion, as soldiers of past wars did, too.

A thinking person who has actually risked his life often in dangerous adventure sports realizes that there are many forces working inside these courageous young men. (both sides by the way. there is only ideology seperating the combatents.)

There is an urge to do well in situations which are terrifyng to those who don't have experience in them. Courage and fear are comfortable right alongside the grand-slam adrenaline rush of combat. To be honest soldiers will admit that it is the dynamic excitement of the battle which is stimulating. No one thinks of death when turning in rock and roll air close to a craggy cliff, nor does anyone focus on the fear of dying if they want to live through the battlefield encounter. Its a very exciting stimulating experience to be in battle.

This requires certain people who are drawn to such critical service. They are very determined to do their duty because that is their job and they wish to be a vital contributuion to Canada. Thankfully our soldiers are good at their jobs and so eager to do their duty.

It is our duty, while supporting them fully, to evaluate their mission in a continuous and critical way, if a large proportion of the citizens are not sure if it is right to be there in the first place.

There is not much reason to have a democracy, or at least the pretense of one, if we let Mr. Harper make all the decissions.

If the citizens of Germany had been a lot more critical of the propaganda that Hitler was feeding them perhaps things might have been better, if the American people had not supported the invasion of Iraq, there might be different, safer paradigm in the world today.

Just because the troops like to fight, a rational person would not immediately deduce that the war is worth supporting. That is called blind patriotism and its results are close at hand to be examined by you everyday on american television.

Edited July 13, 2007 by KO2

[AngusThermopyle]

Just because the troops like to fight,

I don't want to sound disagreeable or anything, but I really cant agree with this statement. I did 6 tours during my time in the military and didn't meet any soldiers who actually liked to fight. It's not a matter of liking to fight, it's a matter of being professional.

Just talk to some vets. Any who have seen conflict will all say the same thing, it's not a sport, not entertainment, it's a job. One that must be performed with professionalism above all else.

I think it's great that people are finally showing support for our guys. It's been a long time coming and it's more than welcome.

[KO2]

Yes those are the overarching goals of proffesional soldiers, but i too have met snowbird pilots, british harrier pilots who fought in the faulklands and I assure you with a couple of beers in them the conversation always goes to the heart of the action, combat.

Your statement sounds edited for a purpose here in this forum to give an air of real duty.

I assure you when people are free to discuss what left an impact on them, it is moments of battle, moments of crisis saving a child perhaps, moments where adrenaline was involved, that stick in a person's psyche.

Lofty discussions of logistical decissions run a distant second.

Try giving a soldier a beer and see what they talk about.

What I don't mean to do is denegrate this feeling, but aknowledge it and the impact it has on everything.

Take it into account as being the normal reaction of those we have selected for this purpose and factor it into the equation of whether the mission is worth supporting or not.

The nuances requiring attention in any difficult decission are real investigatory work. People have to get the info from many sources and think hard on things to come up with a persoonal well considered opinion.

Most peole are to lazy, would rather crack a beer and zone out, than work at this task.

Therefor we sometimes give such simplistic reaons for something, believe in someone elses plan and trusting it to be right.

Edited July 13, 2007 by KO2

[Army Guy]

White doors:

Question - Is it allowable, or considered in good manners, for a civilian to salute on these occasions or can only other solders and veterans do so?

The salute dates back many years, used as a greeting, the empty hand showed you were unarmed, it was also a sign of respect for all who recieved it.

Today our military uses it to pay thier respect to the Queens commision, or officers. and in rare circumstances i've seen non commision members salute other non commision members in a form of the highest respect, it is also customary for all members to salute flags, statues, and coffins or thier cars.

Which comes down to your question, would it be good manners, Yes it would, would others who have served mind , No they should'nt, it is a sign of respect that is all. it would be a personal choice hand over heart or salute. it's the intention that counts.

[Army Guy]

KO2:

I think alot of people get confused when talking about the"Rush" of combat and the term Courage.

There are plenty of things that we do in the military during peace time or training that will provide adrenline rushes, flying a jet aircraft at full throtle 50 feet off the deck would be one i'm sure, jumping out of the back of a herc is another, approaching a LZ in a helo with black sabath playing over the huge speakers is another...It's a feeling in the pit of your stomach that grows and takes over everything you do that is addictive...your excited, your pumped up and full of adrenline, your the terminator on drugs.... That being said i never had those same feelings in combat, or they were clouded by other more powerful feelings...like fear, uncertainity, death to name a few. gone was the excitment, the feeling of being the terminator...

Every soldier , sailor, airmen, have different experiances in combat, all are differnet for many reasons, pilots are still experiancing the same rush as they do in training, very few experiance war close and personal, same for the navy guys until war is brought to them, there ship is attacked and they are fighting for thier survival. So yes over a few beers they will gladly tell of thier experiances, and the rush combat was for them was...On the other hand for those of us on the ground things are a bit different.

Those doing the fighting on the ground see the effects of every wpn we use be it from the air, or naval bombarments, not to mention the effects of our own wpns, it will quickly take away all that romantic feelings you once had in training that combat would be glories, that everyone would die the good death, and be counted as hero's, not so, the exact opposite is what happens...

Courage is another term we use to describe incrediable acts done by soldiers everyday in combat. but if one was to look at those acts that soldiers do they are not brought on by bravery, or any other other noble act. I'll use your example of those soldiers getting out of thier trenchs, under muderous machine gun fire and running across no mans land.

The common soldier does these things for many reasons, it is his job, what he is expected to do, failure to do so would mean discipline measures would be taken upon him, anything from being locked up and loss of wages, even death, but the biggest fear or most motivating factor for a soldier is letting down his peers, his section or platoon..his fear of being put out of that circle is what motivates him, it's not Queen , country, or our flag...but his comrads and what they will think, so to keep inside that circle, and from being label a coward he goes over the top when the whistle blows.

A soldier will drink as much beer as your willing to buy, and you will get stories out of them, but i dought that you will get those intimate secrets of combat from them, those are his or hers to live with to be shared with one day by those closest to them...

My piont is this My combat experiance was not a "big rush", yes there was plenty of adrinline, plenty of fear, plenty of uncertainity, and plenty of death, and when it was all over, your overwhelmed by new emotions such as pain,regret, mourning the losted,joy of being alive, and many more, and all at once... Not even close to my experiances i've had in training...

[AngusThermopyle]

Yes those are the overarching goals of proffesional soldiers, but i too have met snowbird pilots, british harrier pilots who fought in the faulklands and I assure you with a couple of beers in them the conversation always goes to the heart of the action, combat.

Your statement sounds edited for a purpose here in this forum to give an air of real duty.

Sure, thats called shop talk. I.T. people do it, accountants do it, Nurses and Doctors do it, everyone does it.That does not provide some unassailable paradigm proving something beyond repute. It just shows that people like to talk about their jobs.

As to the second part of the quote, "an air of real duty". What exactly are you saying? Are you implying that 20 years of continuous service and 6 tours do not constitute "real duty"? If so, I apologize, I should know better and defer to your obviously superior knowledge as regards these matters.

[KO2]

OK you are correct, the draw of combat doesn't lure anyone to do their duty and you with 20 years have the right to sum it all up for the military.

The ads I see on TV don't actually promote the excitement of action and combat.

Yes you are right, all our soldiers are noble creatures that combat never enters their vocabulary except as something they shun, unless shop talking. No one is drawn by the adrenaline of battle because you are all too well trained to let that seep in.

Yes of course our soldiers are interested in peaceful missions with never any desire to see combat action, only to help build democracies.

They are all like you, 20 year carreer men whom Canadians should trust to make their foreign policy for them, because of you noble motives.

Spout your military PR propaganda as you will, but the moral responsibility for deploying any military missions belongs to the Canadian citizens, not the military.

At one time Canadians understood the dangers of military patriotism promoted by the military, not anymore.

Today we are almost as bovine as our American neighbours.

[Army Guy]

OK you are correct, the draw of combat doesn't lure anyone to do their duty and you with 20 years have the right to sum it all up for the military.

Yes they are drawn to the lure of combat, adventure, and the romantic ideals that they have heard or read so much about, that makes up what we call war. But once anyone has seen, smelled, and heard combat they will quickly tell you another story, and the lure theat once drug them into the recruiting office is gone.. replaced with something else...

Yes you are right, all our soldiers are noble creatures that combat never enters their vocabulary except as something they shun, unless shop talking. No one is drawn by the adrenaline of battle because you are all too well trained to let that seep in.

What your explaining is the difference between a combat vet and one that has not experianced in combat as of yet. everyone talks shop, i don't think a vet will talk about his experiances with as much vigor or detail.

Yes of course our soldiers are interested in peaceful missions with never any desire to see combat action, only to help build democracies.

To be honest, it was one of my carear goals to test the training i've recieved in actual combat, now that it has been tested, and proven, i no longer have that ambition or taste for combat, but rather changed my motivation to use that experiance to train others and to use my experiance in bringing some of these rookies back home in one piece.

They are all like you, 20 year carreer men whom Canadians should trust to make their foreign policy for them, because of you noble motives.

I don't think it is the militaries goal to make foreign policy, but rather have a seat at the table when these policies are being made. We are our the same team after all.

Spout your military PR propaganda as you will, but the moral responsibility for deploying any military missions belongs to the Canadian citizens, not the military.

I'm not sure where this came from, but since we are here. deploying our military any where should be a moral decission made by all Canadians including those in uniform that will soon find themselfs on the battle fields. But thats is not what happens in real life is it. atleast not here in Canada.

At one time Canadians understood the dangers of military patriotism promoted by the military, not anymore.

I not sure of your piont here, but i'll take a swing at it anyways, and you can correct me if i'm wrong. If your concerned about our military gaining to much momentum within our country, and effecting the direction our country is going , then i think your opinon is misguided or misplaced. Our nations defense dept has never been nor never will be the focus of our countries direction.

If your concerned over issues like the troops having to much support, again i think your wrong, supporting ones soldiers and caring for thier well being is a nations responsabilty and we are just starting to make a come back from the left side of the scale. this is a welcomed change and should not be viewed as a negative piont.

Today we are almost as bovine as our American neighbours.

before i could comment i'd have to know your reasoning behind this statement ?

[KO2]

You don't honestly see that the effect of the military always promoting itself on mass media with our tax dollars does't directly garner support for the Government's foreign policy?

Where is my equal time on the National Media, to promote my view on the taxpayer's buck? Where are my concerns linked to such solomn rituals as funerals, noble traditions, while displays of success of the smallest consequences are given much spin. And just what does all this foo fer rah have too do with why we are there in the first place.

When so many vague reasons are given for anything to me, bolstered by persuasion from those whose idea all this was in the first place, something doesn't add up for me. Its all affective Marketing for a purpose. The reason the marketing is so great a component is because the real reason we are there is unmentionable. That is why there is so much selling going on.

If the reason for this mission was noble, Caanadians would be smart enough to grasp it with out the marketing. The reason we are not in favour of this war is because a majority of Cnadians arebeing told by their gut feelings that it is wrong, despite the great effort to sell it.

Personally I see it as an extension of American military foreign policy , the requirenments of our duty having been fulfilled long ago.

The Bovine reference is an analogy of the American society to a large herd of cows all munching the fodder of their government fulfilling their role as unthinking tax beasts, supporting a military dictatorship.

It would be hard to understand this from the short statement I gave.

I'm glad you asked me to clarify it.

Don't get me wrong I respect you for your service to me.

I'm not sure though that you should sit at the table in the decission to use your services.

Like politicians who have a personal interest in an issue must excuse themselves from the vote.

I am sure that you should not be given unbalanced airtime to promote your views to Canadians.

You have no clue of the power of the Media?

Thanks for the intelligent conversation, I'm glad our soldiers are so articulate.

Edited July 13, 2007 by KO2

[August1991]

Although related to CDN soldiers but a bit off topic, this makes for a good read.It is from a British newspaper (I think) If someone can make that a hot link I would appreciate it.

Here's a link to the original source.

UNTIL the deaths last week of four Canadian soldiers accidentally killed by a US warplane in Afghanistan, probably almost no one outside their home country had been aware that Canadian troops were deployed in the region. And as always, Canada will now bury its dead, just as the rest of the world as always will forget its sacrifice, just as it always forgets nearly everything Canada ever does.

It seems that Canada's historic mission is to come to the selfless aid both of its friends and of complete strangers, and then, once the crisis is over, to be well and truly ignored. Canada is the perpetual wallflower that stands on the edge of the hall, waiting for someone to come and ask her for a dance. A fire breaks out, she risks life and limb to rescue her fellow dance-goers, and suffers serious injuries. But when the hall is repaired and the dancing resumes, there is Canada, the wallflower still, while those she once helped glamorously cavort across the floor, blithely neglecting her yet again.

Kevin Myers, Daily Telegraph

[KO2]

"Canada is the perpetual wallflower that stands on the edge of the hall, waiting for someone to come and ask her for a dance. A fire breaks out, she risks life and limb to rescue her fellow dance-goers, and suffers serious injuries. But when the hall is repaired and the dancing resumes, there is Canada, the wallflower still, while those she once helped glamorously cavort across the floor, blithely neglecting her yet again."

This is a reason we should develop, or modify foreign policy on?

I don't don't quite follow your meaning here.

Is it reasonable to make any kind of foreign policy on such over simplification?

The world is not a dance hall and when we are on military missions we are not dancing.

How sweet such metaphores to cover up the tragic reality of the remains the parents of those dance-partners actually recieve back after the dance is through

Edited July 13, 2007 by KO2

[White Doors]

White doors:

Question - Is it allowable, or considered in good manners, for a civilian to salute on these occasions or can only other solders and veterans do so?

The salute dates back many years, used as a greeting, the empty hand showed you were unarmed, it was also a sign of respect for all who recieved it.

Today our military uses it to pay thier respect to the Queens commision, or officers. and in rare circumstances i've seen non commision members salute other non commision members in a form of the highest respect, it is also customary for all members to salute flags, statues, and coffins or thier cars.

Which comes down to your question, would it be good manners, Yes it would, would others who have served mind , No they should'nt, it is a sign of respect that is all. it would be a personal choice hand over heart or salute. it's the intention that counts.

Thanks Army guy

[White Doors]

OK you are correct, the draw of combat doesn't lure anyone to do their duty and you with 20 years have the right to sum it all up for the military.

The ads I see on TV don't actually promote the excitement of action and combat.

Yes you are right, all our soldiers are noble creatures that combat never enters their vocabulary except as something they shun, unless shop talking. No one is drawn by the adrenaline of battle because you are all too well trained to let that seep in.

Yes of course our soldiers are interested in peaceful missions with never any desire to see combat action, only to help build democracies.

They are all like you, 20 year carreer men whom Canadians should trust to make their foreign policy for them, because of you noble motives.

Spout your military PR propaganda as you will, but the moral responsibility for deploying any military missions belongs to the Canadian citizens, not the military.

At one time Canadians understood the dangers of military patriotism promoted by the military, not anymore.

Today we are almost as bovine as our American neighbours.

Oh my god you ar an idiot.

You think you know better than the men that have served?

Are you actively trying to be disrespectful?

[White Doors]

KO2

You are definitely the most self absorbed person I have ever met.

[KO2]

You people seem to think that because someone works as a fireman they can plan building fire safety,

A garbagge collector would automaticaly make the best planner of Environmental policies. (I know you'll complain vehemently to that one and insult me further)

A year before the idiot to the south walked into his debacle, I argued passionately with a retired major of the Canadian forces that it would be a tragedy for the western world. I state that they would loose and loose badly. I stated that thety would loose their position of world leadership and become weak militarily. I stated that our safety in Canada would be directly affected.

This man, the Major, laughed at me and claimed that because an operations officer, an expert in computers/ strategic warfare, and because he was intimately aware of the American's military capabilities that victory was forseen. and I was a dumb stoner.

So, I said all kinds of things about how dangerous the world would become if the middle east became unstable.

I'll probably never collect my loonie bet from this military expert.

Edited July 13, 2007 by KO2