Britain Dodges Terrorist Attack

[jdobbin]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19495826/

British authorities were seeking three men Friday after police defused two car bombs that they said could have killed hundreds of people had a cell-phone trigger not failed.

The three men have been identified and are believed to be from the Birmingham area, a center of radical Islamic unrest in Britain, U.S. officials who had been briefed on the developments told NBC News.

Police said the two cars, a light green and a light blue Mercedes-Benz, were found early Friday morning in London’s theater district. The green Mercedes was defused at the site. The blue Mercedes was not discovered to be a threat until early Friday evening, after it had been issued a parking ticket and towed to an impoundment lot near Hyde Park.

It would seem a great deal of thanks should be shown some ambulance paramedics for their observation of the suspect vehicle outside the nightclub TigerTiger.

Information seems to be quickly gathered about the incident courtesy of CCTV and a large intelligence file on possible suspects.

What do people here think of CCTV? The closed circuit television in Britain is the most widespread of its kind in the world. ABC News reported tonight that a few years ago there were a million cameras in the country monitoring the public. Now there are nearly five million cameras. A perosn in London is seen by the camera as much as 300 times a day.

[M.Dancer]

Some people say that CCTV is an invasion of privacy (but a constable on the corner isn't?)

I say as soon as you venture out into the public you forfeit the right of privacy....yoiu want privacy? Stay at home with the curtains drawn and the doors closed.....

CCTV should be everywhere.

[BC_chick]

Some people say that CCTV is an invasion of privacy (but a constable on the corner isn't?)

I say as soon as you venture out into the public you forfeit the right of privacy....yoiu want privacy? Stay at home with the curtains drawn and the doors closed.....

CCTV should be everywhere.

See, no bombs, no invasions, no multi-billion dollar wars, no antagonism, not one drop of blood. All it took was CCTV and good old-fashioned policing.

[geoffrey]

See, no bombs, no invasions, no multi-billion dollar wars, no antagonism, not one drop of blood. All it took was CCTV and good old-fashioned policing.

Didn't work the first time, and it was just a lucky chance it worked this time.

[BC_chick]

See, no bombs, no invasions, no multi-billion dollar wars, no antagonism, not one drop of blood. All it took was CCTV and good old-fashioned policing.

Didn't work the first time, and it was just a lucky chance it worked this time.

And the bombs, invasions, multi-billion dollar wars, antagonism and blood-shed have solved.... what exactly?

[geoffrey]

And the bombs, invasions, multi-billion dollar wars, antagonism and blood-shed have solved.... what exactly?

Don't bait me into saying the response you exactly want here. It's not happening. I won't let it.

So I'll pick my diplomatic answer. That stuff hasn't really done much. A few hundred thousand Afghan girls going to school and the removal of a terrorist habouring regime is pretty insignificant in the big picture I suppose.

[BC_chick]

And the bombs, invasions, multi-billion dollar wars, antagonism and blood-shed have solved.... what exactly?

Don't bait me into saying the response you exactly want here. It's not happening. I won't let it.

So I'll pick my diplomatic answer. That stuff hasn't really done much. A few hundred thousand Afghan girls going to school and the removal of a terrorist habouring regime is pretty insignificant in the big picture I suppose.

I usually go out for a couple of beers with the boys after work on Fridays, you're giving me way too much credit here if you think I was baiting. The subject was terrorism and I merely pointed out that the best way to catch a terrorist isn't always about bombing people. Afghani girls going to school is a whole other subject.

But somehow I'd be more convinced of our altruistic intentions in Afghnistan if our PM could spare a dime or two or the African little girls dying of AIDS. But given his overwhelming preference to make sure Afghani girls go to school over the African girls dying of AIDS, I'll remained convinced that all the "noble" intentions are nothing but a bunch of hot air and PR to convince the masses that we need to keep going even though our "mission" was accomplished some time back.

[Argus]

See, no bombs, no invasions, no multi-billion dollar wars, no antagonism, not one drop of blood. All it took was CCTV and good old-fashioned policing.

Didn't work the first time, and it was just a lucky chance it worked this time.

It didn't work the first time but it was invaluable in solving it, and in solving the second one, and in numerous other crimes. I like the cameras and I wish we had them here as well. I think you give up your "privacy" insofar as people looking at you goes, when you go outside. There are cameras in every shopping mall. Nobody pays any attention to them. They should be on street corners too.

[bush_cheney2004]

And the bombs, invasions, multi-billion dollar wars, antagonism and blood-shed have solved.... what exactly?

Exactly? The Great Depression.

[jdobbin]

Some people say that CCTV is an invasion of privacy (but a constable on the corner isn't?)

I say as soon as you venture out into the public you forfeit the right of privacy....yoiu want privacy? Stay at home with the curtains drawn and the doors closed.....

CCTV should be everywhere.

It is obvious the security program still has it gaps. I don't know how often if has been successful in preventing a crime before it happened. At most, it seems like a good forensic tool.

[jdobbin]

See, no bombs, no invasions, no multi-billion dollar wars, no antagonism, not one drop of blood. All it took was CCTV and good old-fashioned policing.

And observant emergency workers.

[August1991]

And observant emergency workers.

Exactly.

From what I can gather, CCTV may help in finding culprits but it was observant ambulance attendants who prevented this catastrophe. Indeed, it seems the cell phone detonator may be a better source of info than public cameras.

Years ago, while wandering Beirut eyeing suspiciously parked Mercedes, I wondered what motivates someone to plant a car bomb. In Beirut, they sometimes had a territorial logic but I came to no conclusion.

It seems to me that the people who plant car bombs in Baghdad (or planted them in Beirut) are bound to plant them in western cities. Logistics prevent them now and in this London case, they failed on logistics.

----

BTW, this incident will likely give rise to conspiracy theories. There are going to be people who claim that these bombs are the creation of MI5. The purpose is to justify the "war on terror".

Many have accused the FSB of planting and detonating apartment bombs in Moscow to justify the war in Chechnya. (I have never heard anyone suggest that the FSB was behind Chechen terrorists taking hostage over a thousand in a Moscow theatre.)

Car bombs are unnerving because every time you walk in the street, the danger is in the back of your mind. Apartement bombs are perhaps worse. Everytime you go to sleep you wonder.

[ScottSA]

Some people say that CCTV is an invasion of privacy (but a constable on the corner isn't?)

I say as soon as you venture out into the public you forfeit the right of privacy....yoiu want privacy? Stay at home with the curtains drawn and the doors closed.....

CCTV should be everywhere.

I have serious qualms about making the public sphere into a Panopticon. Sure it helps catch criminals and may even cut down on crime, but it surely must reduce civil liberty too. It seems to me that we ought to look at the root of what is happening...and I don't mean the ridiculous leftist "root causes" of crime.

[CLRV]

Did anybody else notice this part of the story?

The first bomb was discovered after ambulance crews were called to Haymarket to treat a man injured in a fall at 1:30 a.m. Friday. When crews arrived, they noticed smoke coming from a green Mercedes parked in front of a club, Clarke said.

Photographs showed a canister bearing the words ``patio gas,'' indicating it was propane, next to the car. The back door was open with blankets spilling out.

Does this sound like a particularly well-hidden bomb to you? They did everything to make it noticable short of placing a large "CAR BOMB INSIDE" sign on the windshield. How "observant" did those emergency workers really have to be?

I also note that that the other car was discovered after it was towed away. This means the "bombers" parked the damned thing in a loading zone or something similar; a place very likely posted with signs warning that vehicles left there for any length of time would be towed. Is this the world's stupidest terrorist attack ever, or is something else going on here?

Certainly, if we realize that the goal of terrorism is not to kill per se but to instill terror, this would have to be recorded as another successful attack. London is certainly terrified (see the Daily Mail's "Where's the Next Bomb?'') But really. Would an organization like Al Quaeda, which has managed to stay ahead of the world's best intelligence agencies, be so apparently inept?

[kimmy]

Some people say that CCTV is an invasion of privacy (but a constable on the corner isn't?)

I say as soon as you venture out into the public you forfeit the right of privacy....yoiu want privacy? Stay at home with the curtains drawn and the doors closed.....

CCTV should be everywhere.

I don't know about "everywhere", but I agree with most of what you say.

I can't imagine why anyone believes that they have a right not to be observed when they are on a public street. Unless you are the Invisible Man, being observed is an unavoidable consequence of being on a public street.

And I don't even care much whether it's a credible means of fighting terrorism; I'm thinking more along the lines of ordinary situations such as brawling and fighting on public streets, attacks at bus-terminals and subway stations, and this sort of thing. I'm thinking particularly of the Canada Day riot on Whyte Ave in Edmonton a few years ago, or the vandalism and violence that broke out each night on Whyte Ave during the Oilers' run to the Stanley Cup finals. As they were outnumbered by the thousands, the police were unable to effectively deal with the chaos, and many lawbreakers were able to avoid any consequences of their actions just through the anonymity that large crowds provide. One of the tools that police used to catch some of the miscreants was photographs and video provided by private citizens, store owners, newspapers, and television.

I believe that the anonymity of being part of a large crowd gave the thugs and troublemakers a sense that they could engage in violence and vandalism without facing any consequences. I believe that knowing their actions were being recorded on CCTV would have put a damper on a significant portion of the chaos.

-k

[geoffrey]

I usually go out for a couple of beers with the boys after work on Fridays, you're giving me way too much credit here if you think I was baiting. The subject was terrorism and I merely pointed out that the best way to catch a terrorist isn't always about bombing people. Afghani girls going to school is a whole other subject.

My refering to the baiting on the issue is that the left just loves when someone responds with:

"Well, that stragetgy worked for the Americans, there has not been another attack despite the much higher tensions between US and al Qaeda."

I wasn't going to make it that easy.

Interestingly, I dont think Afghani girls going to school is another subject. Kids in proper schools not funded by Hamas or al Qaeda is one less future suicide bomber. Education is key in eliminating terrorism, long-term.

But somehow I'd be more convinced of our altruistic intentions in Afghnistan if our PM could spare a dime or two or the African little girls dying of AIDS. But given his overwhelming preference to make sure Afghani girls go to school over the African girls dying of AIDS, I'll remained convinced that all the "noble" intentions are nothing but a bunch of hot air and PR to convince the masses that we need to keep going even though our "mission" was accomplished some time back.

What was the mission we accomplished? What are his motives (or what motives do you suspect)? And do you disagree with being in Afghanistan to attempt to stablise the country?

[jbg]

Go here (link) for my views on attack. Suffice to say I don't think it's Islam.

[CLRV]

I can't imagine why anyone believes that they have a right not to be observed when they are on a public street. Unless you are the Invisible Man, being observed is an unavoidable consequence of being on a public street.

It's not a question of being "observed". It is a question of being recorded, photographed and monitored. That is an entirely different affair. We can all "observe" each other out on the street. We are on equal footing in that. But people who can secretly record the movements of other people exercise an advantage over them.

There is a reason George Orwell included such monitoring in his ultimate authoritarian society of "1984". The man knew his history and his politics. He knew very well that the more unfree a society is, the more it becomes necessary to keep a close eye on that society's citizens.

If a bunch of people followed you around all day, videotaping and snapping pictures, it wouldn't take very long for you to realize what an invasion of your rights and freedoms it was. It wouldn't take long for you to start wondering what use was being made of all that footage. But because CCTV cameras are mostly hidden and the people watching you are out of sight/out of mind in dark little rooms somewhere, you think that somehow makes it more benign. It doesn't. You think because this monitoring of mostly innocent people provides the illusion of security, it can't possibly be a threat to. It can.

It's called the thin end of the wedge, people. While we're at it, why don't we make our television sets broadcast both ways? Think of the wonderful things that could be achieved in preventing domestic violence and fire bylaw violation. Surely that would be worth giving away another little piece of our liberty?

[ScottSA]

Go here (link) for my views on attack. Suffice to say I don't think it's Islam.

I think it's a setup by Bush. Notice how the bomb vehicles stayed in their own footprint? Coincidence? I think not.

[Moxie]

I honestly think the left will still be in deniel if a bomb blew up their seventies paneled basements. No one ever said Radical Islamists were smart, but hay it's the Jews and the CIA. Tin Foil in isle five, nope sold out.

[margrace]

Lot of silly arguments here but it sure gives your gut a wrench when you realize that you caught a bus from those shelters in the front of the picture in Glasgow. New experience for me, hard to explain.

[scribblet]

I honestly think the left will still be in deniel if a bomb blew up their seventies paneled basements. No one ever said Radical Islamists were smart, but hay it's the Jews and the CIA. Tin Foil in isle five, nope sold out.

So we should buy shares in Alcan LOL never fear its all Israel's fault doncha know....-

[ScottSA]

Lot of silly arguments here but it sure gives your gut a wrench when you realize that you caught a bus from those shelters in the front of the picture in Glasgow. New experience for me, hard to explain.

Reality intruding perhaps? "It can't happen here" is always the accepted mantra before it does.

[margrace]

Lot of silly arguments here but it sure gives your gut a wrench when you realize that you caught a bus from those shelters in the front of the picture in Glasgow. New experience for me, hard to explain.

Reality intruding perhaps? "It can't happen here" is always the accepted mantra before it does.

Now I know the feeling my Irish cousins lived with for years. They told some horrendous stories of what the almighty British army did to them. They had the bad luck to be Catholic in Northern Ireland.

[ScottSA]

Lot of silly arguments here but it sure gives your gut a wrench when you realize that you caught a bus from those shelters in the front of the picture in Glasgow. New experience for me, hard to explain.

Reality intruding perhaps? "It can't happen here" is always the accepted mantra before it does.

Now I know the feeling my Irish cousins lived with for years. They told some horrendous stories of what the almighty British army did to them. They had the bad luck to be Catholic in Northern Ireland.

Maybe it's the British army now. Or the Templars. Or anyone else. Anyone but the real enemy, right? I mean, little brown people are always victims, never aggressors, right? After all, they didn't do all the nasty things that white folk did and should have to pay for forever and ever amen. We should celebrate Islam, because it's a religion of peace, not like that nasty Christianity, right?

Is head-in-the-sandism a permanent desease or does it eventually wear off in the face of reality?