M.Dancer Posted October 16, 2008 Report Posted October 16, 2008 an elected government - not the one Bush picked Could you show in that link where it says Bush picked them? Thanks.... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Radsickle Posted October 16, 2008 Report Posted October 16, 2008 It was common knowledge that the initial governments of both Afghanistan and Iraq were not legitimate governments but `hand-picked' governments. Democracy didn't actually `sweep' those lands till years later. Quote
M.Dancer Posted October 16, 2008 Report Posted October 16, 2008 It was common knowledge that the initial governments of both Afghanistan and Iraq were not legitimate governments but `hand-picked' governments. Democracy didn't actually `sweep' those lands till years later. That's a nonsequitor. Governments can exist with or without democracy and be entirely legitimate. Nevertheless, common knowledge would imply documentation , so how about this link you provided...please show where Bush picked them. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted October 16, 2008 Report Posted October 16, 2008 I'm pretty sure democracy and Cuba are strangers, but the Cuban government is the legitimate and defacto government ... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Radsickle Posted October 16, 2008 Report Posted October 16, 2008 'm the nasty, pessimistic, cold hearted SOB, who has just started his third tour in Afgan, I'm the guy who has seen a 10 year old bury a axe into the back of a capts head, I'm the guy that has seen a 12 year put 5 rounds into a comrades back,( now in wheel chair) because he steped over a young boy during a house clearing operation we all thought was to young to be a combatant....I'm the guy who has seen children strapped full of explosives walk into a crowded market and detonate himself, im the guy that seen a close friend tears steaming down his face, with our Sgt major screaming in his ears shot that prick before he gets any closer" You see that prick was less than 10 years old, he was approached our position, with an explosive chest rig on with enough explosives to send our entire position to Allah, and no he did not get a pass, nor did we that day….So while children may very rarely do those horrible things in North America and your home town, they are daily occurrences over here, over here you become cold hearted or you get carried home. Why is that so hard for the very few of you to come to the same conclusion, that things are not the same around the globe….things are not always peachy and rosy. Sir, I understand your perspective. I'd be jaded too. I'd be friggin' rageful. But the horrors you describe shouldn't stifle our efforts to be better than those who would tell a 10 year old to kill another person. I see this as a `slippery slope'; if we treat 15-year-old Khadr like an adult, Al Qaeda pushes the envelope with 10 year olds -- we validate their use of children by allowing our allies to treat a child like an adult. It only gets worse unless we become the first to say "stop". Quote
Radsickle Posted October 16, 2008 Report Posted October 16, 2008 (edited) Nevertheless, common knowledge would imply documentation , so how about this link you provided...please show where Bush picked them. Ok, Karzai won in the end, supposedly democratically, and it's now hard to find links on a moments notice but Karzai was ushered into leadership without needing the Loya Jirga in 2002. It was humerous and tragic how obvious a `puppet' he was at the time. A lobbyist for the oil industry... hmmmm.... All I could find for now. Edited October 16, 2008 by Radsickle Quote
Radsickle Posted October 16, 2008 Report Posted October 16, 2008 (edited) "The United States vrs. Omar Khadr" Thursday Oct. 16. 9pm EST on CBC US vrs. Omar Khadr Edited October 16, 2008 by Radsickle Quote
Army Guy Posted October 16, 2008 Report Posted October 16, 2008 Army Guy, this is not a charade. It may seem like an insignificant football for us arm-chair quarterbacks, us `civies', to toss around. But I promise you it means a hell of a lot more to me. I didn't think Canada would regress so easily, quickly forgetting itself when faced with a difficult foe. Have the terrorists already won? It's not, what would you call it, The US government has fumbled the ball badly , not only with it's prisons, it's torture, and new illigal combatant laws thier trying to prove. But now you want to hand off that ball to our government. Which really needs to assist in saving face as well, so how do you see this working out for Mr Omar, and our nation.......on one hand we convict the boy of terrorist activities, and sentence him accordly, or we let him go and have group hugs all the way round, while our allieds see us as weak, along with the terrorists themselfs which will be lining up to get thier hugs as well.... And while you may think Canada is regressing and forgetting itself....it's not, one boy does not negate all the good that our nation has done in Afgan...And instead of concentrating on this forgotten terrorist boy we should be compling all the leasons learned and trying to come up with a viable solution to ensure it does not happen again....that the next terrorist put on trail is done correctly and sends a clear message to the world... This battle's not going to be won with bullets. We need better leadership than that. Karzai wants negotiations with the `Taliban'. We should stop being binary about it and allow the possibility. If they put down their weapons, they can have a seat beside the seat of power. If they mess it up, the world painfully continues to kick their ass. Canadians need to wake up and smell the coffee, before we pack up our rifles and bullets we should know a little about our enemy, and it's not just one group, the Taliban, but dozens of groups all with different agenda's, and a good lot of them are not even from Afgan...is that who you want sharing power of a nation that controls the destiny of millions....How many would have to die before we took action once again...we are here now, lets finish the job right now...Rifles and bullets is what they understand and they can be defeated.... Our diplomats should at least live up to our Nation's signed commitments, all of them. Including the ones about 15 year old soldiers and Canadian citizens being allowed a fair trial. He's not a soldier, he is a terrorist, with no rights afforded under inter-national law or the genva convention...all he has going for him is that he holds a Canadian passport of convinence.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
White Doors Posted October 16, 2008 Report Posted October 16, 2008 Army Guy, this is not a charade. It may seem like an insignificant football for us arm-chair quarterbacks, us `civies', to toss around. But I promise you it means a hell of a lot more to me. I didn't think Canada would regress so easily, quickly forgetting itself when faced with a difficult foe. Have the terrorists already won?This battle's not going to be won with bullets. We need better leadership than that. Karzai wants negotiations with the `Taliban'. We should stop being binary about it and allow the possibility. If they put down their weapons, they can have a seat beside the seat of power. If they mess it up, the world painfully continues to kick their ass. Our diplomats should at least live up to our Nation's signed commitments, all of them. Including the ones about 15 year old soldiers and Canadian citizens being allowed a fair trial. So you think it means more to you than a guy that has done two tours of duty there? Are you always this pompous? Quote Those Dern Rednecks done outfoxed the left wing again.~blueblood~
Army Guy Posted October 16, 2008 Report Posted October 16, 2008 Sir, I understand your perspective. I'd be jaded too. I'd be friggin' rageful. But the horrors you describe shouldn't stifle our efforts to be better than those who would tell a 10 year old to kill another person. I see this as a `slippery slope'; if we treat 15-year-old Khadr like an adult, Al Qaeda pushes the envelope with 10 year olds -- we validate their use of children by allowing our allies to treat a child like an adult. It only gets worse unless we become the first to say "stop". I did'nt tell you those stories to paint a negative picture of Afgan, I'm here on my third tour because i know i can make a difference, that we are making a difference, and it would take alot more than these things to stiffle any efforts our soldiers are making in this place....I told you those stories to paint a picture of the bad guys, and what they are capable of.... I don't think you do understand my perspective, nor will you until you've been in my boots, I see this whole Omar and Khadr thing as another way to undermine our Afgan operations, to slander the US government, and for a few to become the watch dogs and referees of human rights ensuring that the bad guys get a fair shake.... and pretend we actually give a shit about how we as a nation are precieved by a bunch of terrorists... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
M.Dancer Posted October 16, 2008 Report Posted October 16, 2008 Ok, Karzai won in the end, supposedly democratically, and it's now hard to find links on a moments notice but Karzai was ushered into leadership without needing the Loya Jirga in 2002. It was humerous and tragic how obvious a `puppet' he was at the time. A lobbyist for the oil industry... hmmmm....All I could find for now. Yes I'm sure there's a lot of oil in Afghanistan ...I suppose having a job is a disqualification.... Karzai and the others got their position not because of the US or the (ahem) oil connection but because they were the leadesof the Northern Alliance, the opposition of the Taliban who took up arms against them and fought a long civil war against them. Seeing that they won the war, and would have won the war with or without US help, it is natural that they would be the new government of Afghanistan. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1552994.stm Now that we have brushed aside questions about the legitimacy of the government and whether they had the right to request help in fighting the Taliban....did you have a point? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Radsickle Posted October 20, 2008 Report Posted October 20, 2008 (edited) Yes I'm sure there's a lot of oil in Afghanistan ...I suppose having a job is a disqualification....Karzai and the others got their position not because of the US or the (ahem) oil connection but because they were the leadesof the Northern Alliance, the opposition of the Taliban who took up arms against them and fought a long civil war against them. Seeing that they won the war, and would have won the war with or without US help, it is natural that they would be the new government of Afghanistan. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1552994.stm Now that we have brushed aside questions about the legitimacy of the government and whether they had the right to request help in fighting the Taliban....did you have a point? My point? That you shouldn't believe everything you read online. That supposed BBC article didn't even mention Karzai and couldn't even spell Massoud's name right. During the Soviet war, Karzai helped transfer arms and money to the Mujahideen, and also later served as deputy foreign minister under President Burhanuddin Rabbani. However, when the Taliban emerged on the scene, Karzai supported them, and even worked as a consultant to help a major US oil company, Unocal sign a deal with the Taliban to build a pipeline through Afghanistan. The deal was not reached after women rights organizations in the United States put pressure on Unocal to not do business with the Taliban due to their extremely oppressive treatment of women in the country. Eventually, Karzai grew tired of the Taliban and later in 2001, after the attacks on the World Trade Center in New York, began to secretly work with the United States to find an alternative to Taliban rule in Afghanistan. Info not from Wikipedia And the Leader of the Northern Alliance, Massoud, was Assassinated by Taliban f-heads posing as journalists on Sept 13, 2001. Karzai supported him, yes. But not at first... My point is there wasn't a clear government in Afghanistan at the time Khadr was caught. Canada should've assumed responsibility for this citizen found in an unstable, law-less country. Edited October 20, 2008 by Radsickle Quote
jbg Posted October 20, 2008 Report Posted October 20, 2008 My point is there wasn't a clear government in Afghanistan at the time Khadr was caught. Canada should've assumed responsibility for this citizen found in an unstable, law-less country.For someone who is at best a traitor and at worst verminous scum? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Radsickle Posted October 20, 2008 Report Posted October 20, 2008 ... The US government has fumbled the ball badly , ... But now you want to hand off that ball to our government. Dude, our government was supposed to catch that `ball'. We fumbled it by allowing the US interference. ...And instead of concentrating on this forgotten terrorist boy we should be compling all the leasons learned and trying to come up with a viable solution to ensure it does not happen again....that the next terrorist put on trail is done correctly and sends a clear message to the world... Why should Omar be sacrificed while Canada slowly learns that what Bush did with him was very illegal? Canadians need to wake up and smell the coffee, before we pack up our rifles and bullets we should know a little about our enemy, ... and pretend we actually give a shit about how we as a nation are precieved by a bunch of terrorists... I give a crap about how we're perceived as a nation by ANYONE. Why do you assume `Canadians' need to wake up and smell the cliches? Quote
jbg Posted October 20, 2008 Report Posted October 20, 2008 Why should Omar be sacrificed while Canada slowly learns that what Bush did with him was very illegal?Wait a moment?Are you saying Canada is the Khadr Family's servant? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Radsickle Posted October 20, 2008 Report Posted October 20, 2008 (edited) Go ahead and try to take my comments out of context, if you're that desperate. I'm saying that Canada has legal responsibilities to its citizens, regardless of background. Edited October 20, 2008 by Radsickle Quote
White Doors Posted October 20, 2008 Report Posted October 20, 2008 Go ahead and try to take my comments out of context, if you're that desperate. I'm saying that Canada has legal responsibilities to its citizens, regardless of background. Agreed, but not regardless of deeds. Quote Those Dern Rednecks done outfoxed the left wing again.~blueblood~
jbg Posted October 21, 2008 Report Posted October 21, 2008 Go ahead and try to take my comments out of context, if you're that desperate. I'm saying that Canada has legal responsibilities to its citizens, regardless of background.And it has a right to prioritize those responsibiliies. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Army Guy Posted October 21, 2008 Report Posted October 21, 2008 Dude, our government was supposed to catch that `ball'. We fumbled it by allowing the US interference. please explain to me at this piont in time, what possiable good could come of this entire situation if our government demanded omars return....and what do you think our government would dole out as his punishment....keeping in mind our inter national commitments and our reputation in the eyes of our allieds. Why should Omar be sacrificed while Canada slowly learns that what Bush did with him was very illegal? Because it is not just Canada's problem it's the entire coalition's problem...and nobody has told the big boys what they are doing is wrong and we don't want to play with you anymore until you sort yourself out....and until that is done we as a nation can't sit around pretending we are not as guilty as the rest of them....just knowing the problem exists makes us guilty.... I give a crap about how we're perceived as a nation by ANYONE. you don't get it, nor will you, this group of people exist only to put under thier thumb an entire nation of millions...to abuse, kill , and treat as they see fit....who gives them that right....do some research and find out what these sweat hearts are capable of, what they are still doing today....see thier victims, hear thier stories of thier pain and suffering...hey they have their own web sites, view with your own eyes thier accomplishments, thier exploits, view tape after tape of innocent cilvilians being killied, allied soldioers being blown up....heads being cut off with a dull knife Yes hear the screams, the pleas of thier victims as they peel a mans skin off his body....... Then sit there with a straight face and tell me you have compassion for those that call themselfs the taliban, Al Quadia, or the dozens of other groups operating here in Afgan... for me i've seen it played out day after day and when we assualt a mud hut complex, filled with bad guys the only thing i care about is are my bullets striking the target....not what they think of Canada as a nation, but rest assured i do make it a piont to tell the survivors who just kicked thier ass, and what nation i come from.. Why do you assume `Canadians' need to wake up and smell the cliches? It is the Canadian way , to be more concerned about the bad guys and our worlds reputation than we are our own soldiers....Omars case has recieved more attention than our equipment shortfalls, or military condition in general....those don't sell papers or make for good supper conversation .....case in piont, can you name a few items that our military critically needs right now.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
jbg Posted October 23, 2008 Report Posted October 23, 2008 It is the Canadian way , to be more concerned about the bad guys and our worlds reputation than we are our own soldiers....Omars case has recieved more attention than our equipment shortfalls, or military condition in general....those don't sell papers or make for good supper conversation .....case in piont, can you name a few items that our military critically needs right now....That's ever the problem with Western democracies; to be more concerned about the unproductive than the productive. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
capricorn Posted October 24, 2008 Report Posted October 24, 2008 I have read all the opinions for and against Omar Khadr's guilt or innocence, and the arguments of whether or not he is a child soldier. So much so that I am past the point of caring. I don’t care if he remains imprisoned in the US for the remainder of his life. Neither do I care if he is transferred to Canada where he would receive the best psychological and physical treatment, the kind of medical care average Canadians can only dream about in spite of paying for it through the nose. I don’t feel threatened by Omar Khadr nor do I fear him. If he was ever released into Canadian society he would be watched closely, just like his family. Even though I believe he is a terrorist at heart, he would be unable to carry out his destructive and murderous intentions. What I suspect is that if he is returned he would sue the taxpayer via the government and our bleeding heart courts would probably award him five times the compensation Arar received. Ambulance chasers are lined up to take up his claim. The Khadrs are pathetic and feel no attachment to Canada other than what they can suck from it. I am unapologetic if this makes me sound cruel and uncaring. It is an honest opinion, probably more honest than the opinions of some who discuss his innocence or immorality ad infinitum but who care even less than I do. IMO Omar Khadr has become a national pastime and a diversion from more serious issues. He has also become an industry of sorts. Whatever happens, Khadr will continue to give us reasons to disagree amongst each other and the sensationalist media is all too willing to accommodate us. Quote "We always want the best man to win an election. Unfortunately, he never runs." Will Rogers
WestViking Posted October 24, 2008 Report Posted October 24, 2008 Go ahead and try to take my comments out of context, if you're that desperate. I'm saying that Canada has legal responsibilities to its citizens, regardless of background. Please cite the laws that require Canada to rescue citizens engaged in serious crimes and in military actions against allies. I would be most interested in the support you can show for your arguments. Quote Hall Monitor of the Shadowy Group
Hcheh Posted October 27, 2008 Report Posted October 27, 2008 Khadr is a Canadian citizen wether you think he should be or not. Thats why Canadian government functionaries were allowed access to him in Guatanamo. He's 100% as Canadian as I am. Y'see, I never played hockey either. Radsickle's right, That only goes to show that we need a better immigration screening process.. Quote
Hcheh Posted October 27, 2008 Report Posted October 27, 2008 I have read all the opinions for and against Omar Khadr's guilt or innocence, and the arguments of whether or not he is a child soldier. So much so that I am past the point of caring. I don’t care if he remains imprisoned in the US for the remainder of his life. Neither do I care if he is transferred to Canada where he would receive the best psychological and physical treatment, the kind of medical care average Canadians can only dream about in spite of paying for it through the nose.I don’t feel threatened by Omar Khadr nor do I fear him. If he was ever released into Canadian society he would be watched closely, just like his family. Even though I believe he is a terrorist at heart, he would be unable to carry out his destructive and murderous intentions. What I suspect is that if he is returned he would sue the taxpayer via the government and our bleeding heart courts would probably award him five times the compensation Arar received. Ambulance chasers are lined up to take up his claim. The Khadrs are pathetic and feel no attachment to Canada other than what they can suck from it. I am unapologetic if this makes me sound cruel and uncaring. It is an honest opinion, probably more honest than the opinions of some who discuss his innocence or immorality ad infinitum but who care even less than I do. IMO Omar Khadr has become a national pastime and a diversion from more serious issues. He has also become an industry of sorts. Whatever happens, Khadr will continue to give us reasons to disagree amongst each other and the sensationalist media is all too willing to accommodate us. That is true, why should we stick our necks out for someone who could care less about our country? This whole thing is only giving a bad name to those first generation Canadians who actually care about Canada with their heart and soul. Quote
Peter F Posted October 27, 2008 Report Posted October 27, 2008 That only goes to show that we need a better immigration screening process.. It goes to show that Khadr is Canadian. It may go to show that ability to play hockey should be part of an immigration screening process though. Quote A bayonet is a tool with a worker at both ends
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