myata Posted May 19, 2007 Report Share Posted May 19, 2007 Read a story about a hell (much abridged storyline following in the tradition of Dante's, the new twist being tourists from Heaven on a tour of underworld). I wasn't sure till now if the hell is actually an official doctrine of the Catholic church, but according to this link (and countless other) it is. As I understand, it is also present in some other religions. So, what's the point of having a hell in your doctrine? I can think of these worthy reasons: 1) Intimidation of followers into following (for shortage of stronger argument?) 2) Exercising revenge (even if imaginary) on your enemy (i.e. not unlike wishing that neighbours loud stereo to burn to ashes in its electric fires) 3) Boosting one's self image by finding / pointing to someone obviously inferior (those sinners) 4) X thousand years old scripture that must be followed blindly without questioning or ... But the thing that struck me most, upon reflection, is that to be best of my very limited recollection of the story, hell was created by the god itself who gave to the supreme enemy the dominion over the place. Does that signify that god needs hell ? supports its existence (financially and / or morally)? turns a blind eye on its existence? / does nothing to help the poor souls suffering in it? And what lessons should the followers draw from this teaching? Maybe restraining their salvation efforts and letting sinners (and unbelievers) have their due would be more in line with the scripture? [Edited: Catholic is not the only church that still approves "hell" doctrine. ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted May 20, 2007 Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 deleted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted May 20, 2007 Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 To answer the subject of the thread, it's what Alberta has, All Hell For A Basement (link). Lyrics below: ========================================================== Big Sugar - All Hell For A Basement I'm a workin' man But I ain't worked for a while Like some old tin can From the bottom of the pile From the bottom of the pile I have lost my way But I hear tell About a heaven in Alberta Where they've got all hell for a basement My words are like a rope That's wrapped around my throat Wash my mouth with soap For words unfit to quote I have lost my way But I hear tell About a heaven in Alberta Where they've got all hell for a basement I have lost my way But I hear tell About a heaven in Alberta Where they've got all hell for a basement And now I'm free to go But time cannot remove The only life I know Now only time will prove Yes, only time will prove If I have lost my way Cause I hear tell About a heaven in Alberta Where they've got all hell for a basement Yeah, I have lost my way But I hear tell About a heaven in Alberta Where they've got all hell for a basement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. Max Posted May 20, 2007 Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 I don't think we know exactly what it is, but just waiting for judgement isn't such a great place by its self. http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/thebookofenoch.htm From the book of Enoch XXII. Sheol or the Underworld. 22 1 And thence I went to another place, and he mountain [and] of hard rock. 2 And there was in it four hollow places, deep and wide and very smooth. How smooth are the hollow places and deep and dark to look at. 3 Then Raphael answered, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said unto me: 'These hollow places have been created for this very purpose, that the spirits of the souls of the dead should 4 assemble therein, yea that all the souls of the children of men should assemble here. And these places have been made to receive them till the day of their judgement and till their appointed period [till the period appointed], till the great judgement (comes) upon them.' I saw (the spirit of) a dead man making suit, 5 and his voice went forth to heaven and made suit. And I asked Raphael the angel who was 6 with me, and I said unto him: 'This spirit which maketh suit, whose is it, whose voice goeth forth and maketh suit to heaven?' 7 And he answered me saying: 'This is the spirit which went forth from Abel, whom his brother Cain slew, and he makes his suit against him till his seed is destroyed from the face of the earth, and his seed is annihilated from amongst the seed of men.' 8 The I asked regarding it, and regarding all the hollow places: 'Why is one separated from the other?' 9 And he answered me and said unto me: 'These three have been made that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And such a division has been make (for) the spirits of the righteous, in which there is the bright spring of 10 water. And such has been made for sinners when they die and are buried in the earth and judgement has not been executed on them in their 11 lifetime. Here their spirits shall be set apart in this great pain till the great day of judgement and punishment and torment of those who curse for ever and retribution for their spirits. There 12 He shall bind them for ever. And such a division has been made for the spirits of those who make their suit, who make disclosures concerning their destruction, when they were slain in the days 13 of the sinners. Such has been made for the spirits of men who were not righteous but sinners, who were complete in transgression, and of the transgressors they shall be companions: but their spirits shall not be slain in the day of judgement nor shall they be raised from thence.' 14 The I blessed the Lord of glory and said: 'Blessed be my Lord, the Lord of righteousness, who ruleth for ever.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted May 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 It may not have been clear to those who wrote these scriptures (obviously logic or compassion not among their strengths) that permanent (or greatly extended) harsh punishment serves no rehabilitation purpose. It simply becomes a part of the reality - and a sick reality at that. I'm not sure how many in this age would be still impressed by these sick visions. The way to go would be to change the doctrine and get rid of the entire concept. I think some Christian churches have done that but I'm not sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted May 20, 2007 Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 It may not have been clear to those who wrote these scriptures (obviously logic or compassion not among their strengths) that permanent (or greatly extended) harsh punishment serves no rehabilitation purpose.Exactly why the Jewish Old Testament doesn't feature "hell". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figleaf Posted May 20, 2007 Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 I thought I heard a few years ago that Pope JPII had cancelled hell. Or rather, that he had revised doctrine to say that that 'hell' is not a specific place where souls are sent to receive torment. Instead, rather than a place, hell is a condition experienced by souls that are permanently separated from God. I'm pretty sure I didn't dream that or make it up, but I can't find reference to it despite a quick search. Here's what the vatican website says: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/arch...123a12.htm#1036 And here's another view... http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Rel...ing_in_hell.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbie Posted May 20, 2007 Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 Regarding your last link Fig, it's hard for me to visualize Mother Theresa down in "hell" because she didn't publically admit (to my knowledge) to being born again. I've always maintained that hell is up in your mind, not down below your feet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
margrace Posted May 20, 2007 Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 I would imagine hell is the streets where a lot of very sick people have to live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. Max Posted May 20, 2007 Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 It may not have been clear to those who wrote these scriptures (obviously logic or compassion not among their strengths) that permanent (or greatly extended) harsh punishment serves no rehabilitation purpose. It's not suppose to, and logic has nothing to do with it. It is the way Enoch saw it, not the way you think it should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higgly Posted May 20, 2007 Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 I would imagine hell is the streets where a lot of very sick people have to live. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbie Posted May 20, 2007 Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 It may not have been clear to those who wrote these scriptures (obviously logic or compassion not among their strengths) that permanent (or greatly extended) harsh punishment serves no rehabilitation purpose. It's not suppose to, and logic has nothing to do with it. It is the way Enoch saw it, not the way you think it should be. God is not big on second chances I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted May 20, 2007 Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 It may not have been clear to those who wrote these scriptures (obviously logic or compassion not among their strengths) that permanent (or greatly extended) harsh punishment serves no rehabilitation purpose.Exactly why the Jewish Old Testament doesn't feature "hell". Instead of hell, it just has the benevolent hebrew God slaughtering civilizations and everyone else who generally didn't believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkman Posted May 20, 2007 Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 God is not big on second chances I guess. Second chances? God gives us 80 years to figure things out, screwing up many times along the way. Or how about 70 x 7 screw ups every day being the number of times Jesus said to forgive someone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted May 20, 2007 Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 God is not big on second chances I guess. Second chances? God gives us 80 years to figure things out, screwing up many times along the way. Or how about 70 x 7 screw ups every day being the number of times Jesus said to forgive someone? Or minutes for babies who die shortly after childbirth. God used to place them in limbo according to the Catholic Church. Now, Pope Benedict (through the power of God) has cancelled the idea of limbo, so these dead babies go straight to heaven. Of course, once you're baptized, if you die in the second year of your life... you better be a good Christian. Those children who die of childhood illnesses better believe, or it's an eternity of suffering for them. Not to mention all the children around born to families who don't believe in salvation through Jesus. I guess it only makes sense that they should know better, or be punished for their parents wrong beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted May 20, 2007 Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 Why don't we start rejecting these superstitious threats? It's unbelievable that people still think these things are facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkman Posted May 20, 2007 Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 Or minutes for babies who die shortly after childbirth.God used to place them in limbo according to the Catholic Church. Now, Pope Benedict (through the power of God) has cancelled the idea of limbo, so these dead babies go straight to heaven. Of course, once you're baptized, if you die in the second year of your life... you better be a good Christian. Those children who die of childhood illnesses better believe, or it's an eternity of suffering for them. Not to mention all the children around born to families who don't believe in salvation through Jesus. I guess it only makes sense that they should know better, or be punished for their parents wrong beliefs. No wonder you have a grudge against God with all of the incorrect beliefs you have. You only are accountable to God when you reach an age of understanding. Different for all people. Most children don't reach that age for several years. Aborted babies go straight to heaven too if you were wondering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted May 20, 2007 Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 No wonder you have a grudge against God with all of the incorrect beliefs you have. You only are accountable to God when you reach an age of understanding. Different for all people. Most children don't reach that age for several years. Aborted babies go straight to heaven too if you were wondering. Do blastocytes go to heaven too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkman Posted May 20, 2007 Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 Do blastocytes go to heaven too? Hey, here's an idea, why don't you ask God on that one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted May 20, 2007 Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 How about this then... Do children of other religions, before they reach an age of consciousness, go to heaven as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkman Posted May 20, 2007 Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 How about this then...Do children of other religions, before they reach an age of consciousness, go to heaven as well? Why, of course, even the children of satanists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted May 20, 2007 Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 I wonder what buddhist, hindu and sikh parents think of your idea that their dead children have gone to your God's heaven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkman Posted May 20, 2007 Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 They probably wouldn't agree, but at the end of the day would be happy they are in a better place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted May 20, 2007 Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 The arrogance is amazing, I must say. I don't mean to be offensive, but there is nothing to suggest any one religion is more right than another. There has been absolutely no evidence offered in any conversation we've had to provide proof of the existence of any God, let alone which religious beliefs in that God are true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkman Posted May 20, 2007 Report Share Posted May 20, 2007 But significantly less arrogant that saying all religions are evil and should be abandoned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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