Question capitalism, Trudeau tells students

[Figleaf]

Markets generally do take into account our best estimate of future costs or consequences. The problems arise where markets do not exist or are incomplete.

So, Trudeau is wrong to blame capitalism - he should blame a lack of markets.

But ...

'Capitalism' is the system that produces the very externalities that the missing markets arn't fixing.

And 'capitalism' is the system that is not forming those markets.

[BubberMiley]

It's unbelievable to me that some would try to immediate shut down discussion or attack the character of someone who is only suggesting that we intelligently and rationally look at the deficiencies in our economic structure, where those deficiencies are leading us, and how we can improve it. I wonder why so many are so defensive and reluctant to engage in any objective discussion at all, and immediately bring the debate down to an elementary level by bringing up his family's wealth--as if that has any bearing on the discussion at all.

Talk about shallow.

[BC_chick]

Just pointing out your contradiction. You went from him saying nothing about participating in the capitalist world market to it being the basis of his point.

Maybe in your black or white world the two statements were contradictory. In my gray world one can rethink using up resources without care without rejecting capitalism.

[August1991]

Actually, a recession caused most of that trouble, not the NEP. In any event, the NEP was not socialist and has very little to do with JT.

I'll agree that the recession of the early 1980s caused most of the problems, even Trudeau pere described the NEP as a "Made-in-Canada price". That, coupled with special taxes to finance the creation of a State-owned oil company, is a fair description of socialism.

'Capitalism' is the system that produces the very externalities that the missing markets arn't fixing. And 'capitalism' is the system that is not forming those markets.

To blame capitalism for creating the externalities is a bit like blaming modern medicine for all the old people you see at the mall with walkers.

Markets with prices work in some cases but not in other cases. About 10,000 years or so ago, we had no markets at all (everything was an externality to use your words) because we had no numbers or prices.

It's unbelievable to me that some would try to immediate shut down discussion or attack the character of someone who is only suggesting that we intelligently and rationally look at the deficiencies in our economic structure, where those deficiencies are leading us, and how we can improve it.

If Trudeau fils had said that, I suppose it could have passed. But he chose to use the loaded word capitalism, and to use it incorrectly too.

[BubberMiley]

If Trudeau fils had said that, I suppose it could have passed. But he chose to use the loaded word capitalism, and to use it incorrectly too.

Okay, rather than "our economic structure," think "capitalism." Now it's exactly what he said. Why is that word loaded for you?

[BC_chick]

He does seem to be like his father as he's fallen in love with socialism. The NEP, which was a socialist policy, cost thousand of Canadians their jobs and investments in their homes. For this reason, it was devastating policy.

Justin's comments are even more ridiculous, if you understand how it would devastate the economy and impact the lives of Canadians. Not just big bad oil companies, but Joe Employee and every shareholder. Not to mention those employed in the medical industry, which is largely funded because of our current economy, and those who use the system.

Do you think I'm right on this one or is Justin right because he's a Trudeau?

Well, I am using Justin's own word when I say that "rethinking" consumption and rejecting capitalism are not the same thing. You're the one drawing your own interpretation and so the onus is on you to show how JUSTIN (not his father, his father is dead, we're discussing Justin here) is actually rejecting capitalism altogether and proposing a socialist society by saying any of the words mentioned in that article.

Second, the more you keep bring up the PET, the more you show exactly what you are accusing me of doing - and that's making up your mind simply based on your opinions of PET.

Thirdly, I find it interesting that you quote my taunting afterthought about Justin's looks as opposed to the crux of my argument, which was the suggestion that people are scared of him because he is in touch with the youth.

Face it, no matter how much you disagree with new generation's ideas, they do care for the environment more than other demographics. Who knows, maybe they have the crazy notion that breathing the air in 60 or so years may be more important than getting rich right now. Maybe it's because they'll be around longer than the other demographics.

But whatever it is, you can't deny that the environment is a huge issue for the new generation and that along with his youthful appearance, Justin's a big threat to the CPC because of his ideas on our consumption and its economic repercussions.

[BC_chick]

BC Chick.

Of course you would not see that as an affront to capitalism...

Look at your political compass score. You are about 1pt away from communism.

quelle suprise!

Great argument! The way you just rejected my idea based on your own view of me is pure BRILLIANCE. I bet you were the captain of your debating team, weren't ya?

Oh, and you're wrong, the score goes up to 10 and you'll notice than economically, I'm not even at the half-way point to communism. But nice try.

[August1991]

Exactly Justin's point - they create prices based on the future, and if the future is bleak, prices are high. That's why we pay $1.30 for a litre of gas.

$1.30/litre in 2007 dollars is still below the price in 1979 in 1979 dollars. In real terms, the price of gasoline is lower now than 30 years ago.

----

As to Justin, I have heard him on local Montreal radio several times in English and French. The CBC fawns over him. He's a flake. (Admittedly, I thought Ignatieff was a flake so I suppose I should describe Justin as a super flake. He's all over the map with bland, generalities commonly heard.)

I'm sticking with my original opinion which comes from a comment of George Bernard Shaw to Isadora Duncan. Duncan told Shaw that she wanted to have a child with such a brilliant man. Shaw replied with a question: "What if the child inherits my looks but your brain?"

Well, Justin apparently inherited his father's looks and his mother's reasoning powers.

But Justin is nothing beside his wife Sophie. I heard her interviewed on a local Montreal radio show too. I tuned in midway and wondered who this ditzy woman was. Justin married an extreme example of his mother; Sophie makes Maggie look positively thoughtful and reflective.

Sorry to belabour this point. I've got nothing against people who don't analyse. In some ways, they enjoy life more and make a greater contribution to humanity. But they shouldn't be politicians.

[August1991]

Okay, rather than "our economic structure," think "capitalism." Now it's exactly what he said. Why is that word loaded for you?

No, this what he said:

"Our capitalist model has given us tremendous things," Mr. Trudeau said. "But the time has come for us to look at it critically and try to improve on it, given the accelerated pace of change and the fact that we have limited space."

He shouldn't have said "capitalist". IMHO, it's a loaded word.

He's also incorrect to blame capitalism for the ills that refers to. Kennedy hired Galbraith to write his speeches. Trudeau should do the same. He's got the money.

[BC_chick]

Well, Justin apparently inherited his father's looks and his mother's reasoning powers.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, I'm not trying to convince you otherwise.

All I'm suggesting is that despite your opinions of him, his father or his mother, he is saying the things that resonate with the new generation. As such, he is a threat to the status quo.

I would prefer to hear your comments on that. The rest, as I said, is nothing but your personal opinion of the man. And you know what they say about opinions....

[geoffrey]

All I'm suggesting is that despite your opinions of him, his father or his mother, he is saying the things that resonate with the new generation. As such, he is a threat to the status quo.

What is your definition of 'the new generation' and why do you give them such little credit? Surely some of them see past the cliche?

[BC_chick]

What is your definition of 'the new generation' and why do you give them such little credit? Surely some of them see past the cliche?

Canada: Climate top concern with youth, poll shows

40% of Canadians 19-29 list global warming ahead of war or getting ahead at work

Source: Copyright 2007, CanWest News Service

Date: May 8, 2007

Byline: Misty Harris

Original URL

David Suzuki, patron saint of hipsters?

That's the implication, at least, of a new Decima Research survey of 1,300 Canadians age 19 to 29. The survey found that nearly 40 per cent of respondents are more concerned about global warming than they are about war (20 per cent), getting ahead at work (17 per cent), drinking and driving (14 per cent) or the opposite sex (six per cent).

http://www.ecoearth.info/shared/reader/wel...px?linkid=74584

------------------------------

Compared with what was it, 19% of the overall population?

[bush_cheney2004]

Not to worry.....barely 40% of these concerned "youth" ever bother to vote in Canada's federal elections.

[geoffrey]

Canada: Climate top concern with youth, poll shows

40% of Canadians 19-29 list global warming ahead of war or getting ahead at work

Source: Copyright 2007, CanWest News Service

Date: May 8, 2007

Byline: Misty Harris

Original URL

That's why they all support measures to eliminate their jobs for the environment. Oh silly people.

David Suzuki, patron saint of hipsters?

The devil wears green?

That's the implication, at least, of a new Decima Research survey of 1,300 Canadians age 19 to 29. The survey found that nearly 40 per cent of respondents are more concerned about global warming than they are about war (20 per cent), getting ahead at work (17 per cent), drinking and driving (14 per cent) or the opposite sex (six per cent).

Well considering that drinking and driving and sex as a combined total are nearly double getting ahead at work... I don't have much fear yet.

[BC_chick]

That's why they all support measures to eliminate their jobs for the environment. Oh silly people.

Look who's fear-mongering now. Say, have you heard about the economic costs that await us if we DON'T do anything about the evironement?

Well considering that drinking and driving and sex as a combined total are nearly double getting ahead at work... I don't have much fear yet.

Except that the latter are not hot topic political issues.....

[capricorn]

The problem with Justin is that he a Trudeau, plain and simple. If he was your garden variety Liberal nominee, he wouldn't get this level of media coverage. Do Justin's musings merely suggest that the capitalist system needs "tweaking"? Or does he want to replace it with something else? Reporters tried to ask him to expand on his thoughts but he didn't want to talk to them. Personally, I would like him to explain himself in more detail. After all, he may one day the Liberal Party and become Prime Minister. The fact he is from Quebec increases the possibilities.

Not everyone in the country is in the 17-30 age group. This demographic may be itching to embrace Justin's views that environmental factors should form the basis for economic decisions. This grandiose idea is sure to meet resistance with those of us who saw his papa in action. Compare this with PET's "tinkering" with Canadian culture. The elder Trudeau determined our Canadian culture left much to be desired. What did he give us to fix these shortcomings? None other than the revered Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and multiculturalism.

So forgive us if we of the older generation wince at Prince Justin's visions for the country and our economy.

The apple does not fall far from the tree.

[BC_chick]

What did he give us to fix these shortcomings? None other than the revered Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and multiculturalism.

Right around the same time, many many other western countries embraced multiculturalism as a result of declining birth-rates. Even homogeneous European countries.

Yet there were no Trudeaus there. Something to think about.

Oh, and thanks for acknowledging that the environment is a big issue for the youth. Judging by the posts on this board, I'm glad a non Trudeau supporter can admit that.

[Remiel]

Markets with prices work in some cases but not in other cases. About 10,000 years or so ago, we had no markets at all (everything was an externality to use your words) because we had no numbers or prices.

If we isolate this little tidbit here for a moment, August, I'd like to point out that this is really a load of hooey. Markets do not require numbers or prices. Numbers and prices are just methods quantifying value. 10,000 years ago, people still knew what value was. People traded. Were you have trade, you have a market.

[BubberMiley]

No, this what he said:

Okay, word for word, it's not the same. But the meaning is the same. You can't express any substantive reason why he shouldn't have said what he said. You say capitalism is a loaded word, but you are completely incapable of explaining why. You say he's all looks and no substance, but you're the one who can't back up your argument.

[geoffrey]

Look who's fear-mongering now. Say, have you heard about the economic costs that await us if we DON'T do anything about the evironement?

Actually, I've seen alot of studies showing that Canada will be one that will benefit (especially Alberta when you think about it)... longer growing season, less consumption of fossil fuels (less heating).

Great news... global warming poses no threat to ME. It's hard to convince me to give up so much to get absolutely nothing in return. And I'm at least somewhat politically interested in the world, what about your average Timmy Ho's in the morning guy? Not bloody likely he's giving anything.

Look at people whine and complain about $1.30 gas. Are we ready for the $2.50+ that we need to cut consumption by the magically 40ish percent. No one is willing, that's why you see no action.

No political party, Liberal or CPC ever wants to deal with the "success" of a Kyoto.

Well considering that drinking and driving and sex as a combined total are nearly double getting ahead at work... I don't have much fear yet.

Except that the latter are not hot topic political issues.....

Perhaps your right. I think it goes to show that most of us (being one of this so called 'new generation') don't really care much about anything other than our own little hedonistic adventures.

While this might bode well for Suzuki and his folks today, when we see our diminished standard of living, we'll think twice.

[capricorn]

What did he give us to fix these shortcomings? None other than the revered Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and multiculturalism.

Right around the same time, many many other western countries embraced multiculturalism as a result of declining birth-rates. Even homogeneous European countries.

Yet there were no Trudeaus there. Something to think about.

Oh, and thanks for acknowledging that the environment is a big issue for the youth. Judging by the posts on this board, I'm glad a non Trudeau supporter can admit that.

Yeah, they embraced multiculturalism all right and look at what's going on those countries today, especially in Europe and Britain. Anyone following international news will know what I'm talking about and I need not elaborate.

Where in my words did you see that I acknowledged that youth sees the environment as a big issue? I did not say that at all.

When you say a non-Trudeau supporter, do you mean senior or junior. As a matter of fact, I voted for PET at the time. You want to know why? I was young, raising a family and I worked in the federal public service. He would grant us 12 to 18 % annual salary increases. There just wasn't anyone around to stop his outrageous spending. We know the negative consequences of his extravaganzas.

I've noticed that you tend to interpret the words of posters for your own purpose. Perhaps you should give posts a second read before formulating a rebuttal or a new point. No disrespect intended.

[August1991]

Sorry for the thread drift.

If we isolate this little tidbit here for a moment, August, I'd like to point out that this is really a load of hooey. Markets do not require numbers or prices. Numbers and prices are just methods quantifying value. 10,000 years ago, people still knew what value was. People traded. Were you have trade, you have a market.

You can't be a comparative shopper unless you can count. Imagine being a comparative shopper without a number! An anonymous human several thousand years ago invented mathematics (and written language) merely to facilitate trade.

Imagine.

Then Conrad Black got his bean counter - Conrad should have chosen someone better.

[Canuck E Stan]

At 36 years of age, Justin Trudeau has collected a paycheque for actually 9-5 job a total of 4 years, as a drama teacher in a private school in Vancouver. Woo-hoo what a great accomplishement for a 36 year old.

Now he travels around the country giving his opinion of life as he sees it.

Trudeau dazzles

Trudeau was invited to speak to the 700 students by Leadership Windsor/Essex, a group dedicated to grooming young Windsorites to become leaders in the community.

He declined to speak to the media, said Lisa Kolody, the executive director of Leadership Windsor/Essex.

"This is not a political event," Kolody said, adding that Trudeau had agreed to the speaking engagement a year ago, before he decided to formally step into federal politics.

Justin Trudeau and Capitalism or This is How I Make Money.

I don't know how many of you realize that this invite to Justin(I'm a regular guy,like you)Trudeau wasn't some trip that Justin took because he cares for these kids, or are any of the other trips he makes to groups around the country.

This trip is Justin's cash in the bank and has been since his dramatic eulogy speech(well done for a drama teacher) back in 2000.

Getting Justin cost this and other groups somewhere in the neighboourhood of $5,000-$7,000 plus expenses.

He's been on the road promoting himself for years and he's no fool.....just making easy money.

The fools here are the people who actually pay this guy, just to hear his views for an hour and a half, on anything he wants to talk about. And I bet, from what he's been saying, he probably wings it as he goes along.

What a way to make a livng, being Daddy's boy and getting big bucks to have people get close to one of Pierre's developed sperms.

I'm sure Justin gets a paychequehonourarium for every group he's an honourary chairman for,and there are lots.

If you would like to have Justin or even his Mom come and show their face at your function, contact:

Speakers' Spotlight

They may even give you a 2 for 1 deal.

And this guy thinks he can represent a poor working class riding? Give me a break.

[geoffrey]

Your right about it... this Trudeau, he reeks the definition of silver spoon socialist.

[BC_chick]

Where in my words did you see that I acknowledged that youth sees the environment as a big issue?

Um, right here:

Not everyone in the country is in the 17-30 age group. This demographic may be itching to embrace Justin's views that environmental factors should form the basis for economic decisions.

I've noticed that you tend to interpret the words of posters for your own purpose. Perhaps you should give posts a second read before formulating a rebuttal or a new point. No disrespect intended.

No disrespect taken. Having read your words again, I still think you are quite clearly acknowledging that the young demographic view the environment as a big issue. If Justin makes the environment a big issue, and you agree that the youth will embrace his views, it naturally follows that the youth also see the environment as a big issue. You know, if A = B, and B = C, then A = C.