With God on Our Side: One Man's War Against an Evangelical Coup in

[cybercoma]

Okay, I just want to know where you guys (Kuzadd and Figleaf), are coming from, obviously your rabid anti-religion (specifically anti-Christianity) is quite intriguing....and on numerous times, quite baffling.

I know Jbg is a Jew. And I think if I'm not mistaken, so is M.Dancer. And correct me if I'm wrong, Cybercoma is an Atheist.

Newbie is Agnostic. And as you well know, I'm a Christian.

But what about you, Figleaf and Kuzadd?

Are you Agnostics or Atheists? Or are you Muslims?

I have to try very hard not to get angry when I read posts like this.

Yes I'm an atheist, but let me ask you, do you believe in the ancient Greek Gods? Do you think they are real?

If not, then I don't believe in your Judeo-Christian God for the same reason. I'm not going to say it's impossible to exist, I just live my life as though it's not true because I've come to the conclusion that it's extremely improbable that there is a God. There are very few people who live their life as though the Gods of Olympus are real; however, their existence has never been disproved. It's just very unlikely that they're real, so we ignore them. The literature and architecture still exist and I still appreciate their beauty and the stories that have been written about them, but that still doesn't offer any validity to their existence.

Now we can get into splitting hairs about how the universe is God or how nature is God, but that is not theism in the sense that there is a supreme being that created us all and takes an active role in our lives listening to, answering and acting on prayers. These are the Gods I have yet to find enough evidence in to conclude that their existence is probable. I don't think there is supreme being playing an active role in our lives.

We are responsible for ourselves and those around us. Religion has been shown to be unnecessary for morality and often times it has been used to pervert morality. Real people are being killed because of religion (see the threads I made about the Sikh riots and the Yazidi muslim girl's murder) and it's not just wars that are being waged in the name of God.

When you say rabid anti-religion, I haven't seen anything rabid about Figleaf and kuzadd's posts. What's rabid is the insistence of people to believe in a supernatural figure that has not been proven. It's rabid to believe without reason in the rules of a being that may not even be there. Using your "God-given" intelligence and reason to come to the conclusion that the existence of God is very unlikely and that all the fighting, murder and oppression done because of religion is disgusting both intellectually and morally is NOT rabid.

Lumping kuzadd and Figleaf in with Muslims is about as asinine as it gets. Their logical denunciations of religion are not specific to Christianity. It is because there are more Christians on this forum and more posts about Christianity (and even that is probably not true, there are more posts about radical muslims, but you're probably ignoring those because you feel Christianity is under attack) that it would appear Christianity gets special attention. There is rabid contempt for irrational belief in the supernatural that is systemically passed on from generation to generation. Yes, that is anti-religion, but Christianity is not 'special' in this regard.

(edited to include a bunch of crap I didn't put in the first time around.)

[kuzadd]

Betsy:

Okay, I just want to know where you guys (Kuzadd and Figleaf), are coming from, obviously your rabid anti-religion (specifically anti-Christianity) is quite intriguing....and on numerous times, quite baffling.

I know Jbg is a Jew. And I think if I'm not mistaken, so is M.Dancer. And correct me if I'm wrong, Cybercoma is an Atheist.

Newbie is Agnostic. And as you well know, I'm a Christian.

But what about you, Figleaf and Kuzadd?

Are you Agnostics or Atheists? Or are you Muslims?

kuzadd :

Question for you , why do you have to label and compartmentalize everyone, does it make it easier for you?

Betsey

Eh? Come again?

it's quite clear, you have labelled everyone, Jbg or possibly q, not sure, is Jewish, apparently so is MDancer according to you,Cybercoma is this and newbie is that, labelled and compartmentalized.

Figleaf and myself, you just can't compartmentalize, so easily, so you are unsure, apparently what we are.

I will give you a clue, not speaking for Figleaf at all, as I will not be so presumptious.

I am a human being, as all those others are, I don't need to label or compartmentalize them, they are human beings also.

if as you say you are a chrisitan, and our bible teaches us that God created us in his own image, hence we , the entire human race are equal in god's eye's ,created as images of him , I am not going to get into what exactly image means, why do you feel the need to compartmentalize god's creations, and to play favourites amongst them??

[kuzadd]

Okay, I just want to know where you guys (Kuzadd and Figleaf), are coming from, obviously your rabid anti-religion (specifically anti-Christianity) is quite intriguing....and on numerous times, quite baffling.

I know Jbg is a Jew. And I think if I'm not mistaken, so is M.Dancer. And correct me if I'm wrong, Cybercoma is an Atheist.

Newbie is Agnostic. And as you well know, I'm a Christian.

But what about you, Figleaf and Kuzadd?

Are you Agnostics or Atheists? Or are you Muslims?

I have to try very hard not to get angry when I read posts like this.

Yes I'm an atheist, but let me ask you, do you believe in the ancient Greek Gods? Do you think they are real?

If not, then I don't believe in your Judeo-Christian God for the same reason. I'm not going to say it's impossible to exist, I just live my life as though it's not true because I've come to the conclusion that it's extremely improbable that there is a God.

Now we can get into splitting hairs about how the universe is God or how nature is God, but that is not theism in the sense that there is a supreme being that created us all and takes an active role in our lives listening to, answering and acting on prayers. These are the Gods I have yet to find enough evidence in to conclude that their existence is probable.

while I understand your reason to feel angry, IMO, it's not worth it.

You are a human being, a living entity, equal to, any thusly labelled follower of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Sikhism, , and any other religion.

Adherents of any/all religious teachings, always believe they are superior to others , who are non-adherents to their/any brand of religion.

[betsy]

Okay, I just want to know where you guys (Kuzadd and Figleaf), are coming from, obviously your rabid anti-religion (specifically anti-Christianity) is quite intriguing....and on numerous times, quite baffling.

I know Jbg is a Jew. And I think if I'm not mistaken, so is M.Dancer. And correct me if I'm wrong, Cybercoma is an Atheist.

Newbie is Agnostic. And as you well know, I'm a Christian.

But what about you, Figleaf and Kuzadd?

Are you Agnostics or Atheists? Or are you Muslims?

I have to try very hard not to get angry when I read posts like this.

Why does a simple question like this make you angry?

[betsy]

Question for you , why do you have to label and compartmentalize everyone, does it make it easier for you?

What do you mean by "compartmentalize?"

Do you mean identities by groups? by culture? by gender? by sexual orientation?

Isn't that what Canada is all about? I'm just trying to be a "true" present-day Canadian....reaching out to you liberal folks who had advocated and encouraged these....divisions.

Clarify what you mean!

[cybercoma]

Because you clearly don't understand what people think and believe, you just want to label them and paint them with your preconceived ideas of those labels. You don't actually want to understand people's thoughts and opinions, you want them to fit to what you understand of those labels you've chosen.

[kuzadd]

Question for you , why do you have to label and compartmentalize everyone, does it make it easier for you?

What do you mean by "compartmentalize?"

Do you mean identities by groups? by culture? by gender? by sexual orientation?

Isn't that what Canada is all about? I'm just trying to be a "true" present-day Canadian....reaching out to you liberal folks who had advocated and encouraged these....divisions.

Clarify what you mean!

I do not advocate any "divisions".

I also don't associate myself with 'liberals' ,you associate me with 'liberals'

Since I do NOT associate myself with 'liberals' and have never said I do, why do you label me as such??

I don't think Canada is about the things you have mentioned. Why do you?

I have an issue, with racism, since my own personal belief, is there is but one race, the human race, therfore, I do not belive, one group of my human being supercedes any other group of human beings based on skin colour ,geography, religious beliefs, or any other trumped up , imaginary excuse to justify abusing members of our human race.

Edited May 23, 2007 by kuzadd

[White Doors]

Because you clearly don't understand what people think and believe, you just want to label them and paint them with your preconceived ideas of those labels. You don't actually want to understand people's thoughts and opinions, you want them to fit to what you understand of those labels you've chosen.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!

The irony of it all!!!

You are the one railing against peopel that believe labelling them as un-rational and un-thinking.

The IRONY of it all. Can you not see your own HYPOCRICY?

[kuzadd]

Because you clearly don't understand what people think and believe, you just want to label them and paint them with your preconceived ideas of those labels. You don't actually want to understand people's thoughts and opinions, you want them to fit to what you understand of those labels you've chosen.

cybercoma! Brilliant!!!

that is so worthy of a repeat, because that is exactly what Betsy is doing!( and she is not alone)

Because you clearly don't understand what people think and believe, you just want to label them and paint them with your preconceived ideas of those labels. You don't actually want to understand people's thoughts and opinions, you want them to fit to what you understand of those labels you've chosen.

that is why she thought she had you all figured out, your an 'atheist' therefore, ..........

figleaf, and myself, she is unsure, so she needs to 'fit us in' somewhere, to something, so she can label, and then likely dismiss, as she see's fit.

[betsy]

I do not advocate any "divisions".

I also don't associate myself with 'liberals' ,you associate me with 'liberals'

Since I do NOT associate myself with 'liberals' and have never said I do, why do you label me as such??

I don't think Canada is about the things you have mentioned. Why do you?

I have an issue, with racism, since my own personal belief, is there is but one race, the human race, therfore, I do not belive, one group of my human being supercedes any other group of human beings based on skin colour ,geography, religious beliefs, or any other trumped up , imaginary excuse to justify abusing members of our human race.

Therefore you agree with me that regardless of origin or color, Canada should only be comprised of one people: CANADIANS!

You agree that multiculturalism is only making matters worse....fostering division and segregation!

Right?

[kuzadd]

I do not advocate any "divisions".

I also don't associate myself with 'liberals' ,you associate me with 'liberals'

Since I do NOT associate myself with 'liberals' and have never said I do, why do you label me as such??

I don't think Canada is about the things you have mentioned. Why do you?

I have an issue, with racism, since my own personal belief, is there is but one race, the human race, therfore, I do not belive, one group of my human being supercedes any other group of human beings based on skin colour ,geography, religious beliefs, or any other trumped up , imaginary excuse to justify abusing members of our human race.

Therefore you agree with me that regardless of origin or color, Canada should only be comprised of one people: CANADIANS!

Right?

Canada is comprimised of Canadians, that's what makes it Canada.

All people who live here, and are born here- or become Canadians, are Canadians.

This is a simple fact.

I do not know what point you are attemting to make, with quoted statement??

"Therefore you agree with me that regardless of origin or color, Canada should only be comprised of one people: CANADIANS!"

[scribblet]

Are you for real???

This is war!

Who cares if Satan is real or not! The colonel could just as well shout and spur his men on with the fierce battlecry, "Let's get the Toothfairy!" If that would spur the men...why not? Hey, whatever works!

Unbelievable is right!! He was speaking in terms he knew that most probably his listeners could relate to, whether Satan exists or not is a moot point, he knew what to say to the crowd.

Funny thing about all this anti Christian fervour, is that at some point we have to draw on our beliefs or what we've been taught, at least the majority of us do. There are objective rights and wrongs (e.g. we don't murder people and we don't steal etc..). The point is that we know many of those Church teachings are correct and we know that our laws are based on those teachings, and really, who cares if a leader uses 'Satan' as a means to rally the troops.

It seems to me that there has been no other time in north american history where Christians have experienced so much hate. Most of it has been the last few years and is again, anti-Christian bias is part of the Bush Derangement Syndrome. Maybe when Bush leaves office they will calm down a bit LOL

cheers

[betsy]

Since I do NOT associate myself with 'liberals' and have never said I do, why do you label me as such??

Now, now, now....when I said "liberal", I didn't mean the Liberal Party.

Why do I think you are a liberal thinker?

Hmmmm ....Let me see...

1. you support the feminist movement. In fact we had a go at it in another thread (21st Century Male Role). So I know I'm not just imagining that.

2. you therefore support abortion. Am I wrong? I doubt it.

3. you are anti-war. Afghanistan and Iraq....am I wrong? I doubt it.

4. you are anti-Bush.

5. you most probably think the Jews had it coming.

6. you advocate SSM.

Those are just the things I can think of at this moment.

Well Kuzadd....you know, "if it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck....blah-blah-blah!"

What impression am I supposed to have about you???

Okay. If you're not a liberal, what are you then???

[betsy]

Therefore you agree with me that regardless of origin or color, Canada should only be comprised of one people: CANADIANS!

Right?

Canada is comprimised of Canadians, that's what makes it Canada.

All people who live here, and are born here- or become Canadians, are Canadians.

This is a simple fact.

I do not know what point you are attemting to make, with quoted statement??

"Therefore you agree with me that regardless of origin or color, Canada should only be comprised of one people: CANADIANS!"

Therefore you agree, we should scrap multiculturalism....since it's only fostering division and encouraging segregation! Because it is (to use your word), "COMPARTMENTALIZING" people into various groups!

Right?

[scribblet]

Therefore you agree, we should scrap multiculturalism....since it's only fostering division and encouraging segregation! Because it is (to use your word), "COMPARTMENTALIZING" people into various groups!

Right?

And giving out money in order for them to stay compartmentalized LOL

[jester]

Gosh how Canada has changed so that betsy can use the word "liberal" as an insult. It's a bit surprising how someone who says they are a Christian is so abusive and dismissive of others. What happened to love thy neighbour?

[Remiel]

The point is that we know many of those Church teachings are correct and we know that our laws are based on those teachings, and really, who cares if a leader uses 'Satan' as a means to rally the troops.

Because that leader is promoting the infliction of " collateral damage " ? To say that Satan is in a place, are you not encouraging your troops to kill everyone and everything in that place because they all belong to " Satan " ? Somehow, I imagine your reaction would be different if his rallying cry was " Kill the heathens! Kill the infidels! "

[betsy]

Gosh how Canada has changed so that betsy can use the word "liberal" as an insult. It's a bit surprising how someone who says they are a Christian is so abusive and dismissive of others. What happened to love thy neighbour?

All I did was give what I think is the definition of a liberal-thinker.

Are you saying there's something shameful about liberal beliefs? That to enumerate what they are is actually an insult?

Abusive?

Strange....hmmm....I suppose you're a liberal. Lol!

[kuzadd]

Since I do NOT associate myself with 'liberals' and have never said I do, why do you label me as such??

1. you support the feminist movement. In fact we had a go at it in another thread (21st Century Male Role). So I know I'm not just imagining that.

2. you therefore support abortion. Am I wrong? I doubt it.

3. you are anti-war. Afghanistan and Iraq....am I wrong? I doubt it.

4. you are anti-Bush.

5. you most probably think the Jews had it coming.

6. you advocate SSM.

Those are just the things I can think of at this moment.

Well Kuzadd....you know, "if it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck....blah-blah-blah!"

What impression am I supposed to have about you???

Okay. If you're not a liberal, what are you then???

I support women's rights as equals, not necessarily the 'feminist movement', as you assume.

I support a woman's right to choose, what goes on with her OWN body, not determined by men.

I am pro-peace. If I could think of a necessary reason for war from an ethical standpoint, I might even be pro-war, but since wars are fought for control of other people's lands, resources , etc., inc. WW2.

Bush is irrelevant to me, so I am NOT anti-bush,as you assume, but you'll assume nonetheless I am. he just happens to be the leader of the US at this time.Example, I did not support intervention in Kosovo, so that must make me anti-Clinton?? or did that make me conservative?

I DO NOT think to quote your absolute nonsense "Jews had it coming". I think the Jews, along with the Gypsies, homsexuals, Jehovah's witnesses, mentally handicapped were used as scapegoats, to justify all sorts of nonsense. As we see Arab/ Muslims being used now.

I accept SSM, because it is not my place to decide ,on what two consenting, loving adults, can do, to marry or not. As it is not my place to decide what two consenting heterosexual adults can do also. To marry or not.

As consenting adults, they can decide, if they wish to marry or not. They are consenting and they are adults.

I do not advocate for gun control, either.

all YOUR assumptions aside!

what I do is think about any scenario, and base my opinion , on the merits, or lack of merits any any given scenario

Edited May 23, 2007 by kuzadd

[kuzadd]

Therefore you agree, we should scrap multiculturalism....since it's only fostering division and encouraging segregation! Because it is (to use your word), "COMPARTMENTALIZING" people into various groups!

Right?

NO. I am not advocating that.

I don't find it is fostering division, nor encouraging segragation.

I am the child of an immigrant.

Believe me when I say this country, doesn't need more of what you are calling for.

[betsy]

Kuzadd said:

"I support women's rights as equals, not necessarily the 'feminist movement'"

Mind you, a lot of liberals say the same thing.

"I support a woman's right to choose, what goes on with her OWN body, not determined by men." - Yep. Abortion.

"I am pro-peace. If I could think of a necessary reason for war from an ethical standpoint, I might even be pro-war, but since wars are fought for control of other people's lands, resources , etc., inc. WW2. "

- Who isn't pro-peace among us here, I wonder? If there are no Hitlers or countries like Japan who started invading other neighboring countries? Unless you clarify what exactly you're saying....your statement is plain rubbish! Yep. Anti-war. Afghanistan and Iraq.

"Bush is irrelevant to me, so I am NOT anti-bush, but you'll assume nonetheless I am. Example, I did not support intervention in Kosovo, so that must make me anti-Clinton?? "-

Oh, it must be Bush's being a Christian then! Silly me!

"I DO NOT think to quote your absolute nonsense "Jews had it coming". I think the Jews, along with the Gypsies, homsexuals, Jehovah's witnesses, mentally handicapped were used as scapegoats, to justify all sorts of nonsense. As we see Arab/ Muslims being used now."

Yeah? I must've mistaken you for someone else....for I could swear you were on the Palestinians' side and vilifying Israel for protecting itself!

"I accept SSM, because it is not my place to decide ,on what two consenting, loving adults, can do, to marry or not. As it is not my place to decide what two consenting heterosexual adults can do also. To marry or not.

As consenting adults, they can decide, if they wish to marry or not. They are consenting and they are adults."

Well, that's a liberal thinking.

"I do not advocate for gun control, either."

You don't approve of the gun registry? Yeah, I forgot about that. And the environment too....Kyoto! Do you support Kyoto? I bet you dooooo.....

But the key things that liberal thinkers support....you support or condone. But then, there's nothing wrong about that...because that's your belief. You see things differently from me...is all.

But reallllly....this Satan issue??? C'mon. It's laughable! It's like listening to 13 year olds trying to win a discussion! Seriously.

[kuzadd]

Gun control would be a key liberal issue, i do not advocate for gun control, therefore you assumption is false, and that is all it is ,assumptions, a pile of them based on your own pre-supposed idea's.

My stance on SSM is pure common sense.

Consenting adults, marrying the person they love.

Your bias lies in your religious belief, which is not common sense, but indoctrination.

was Clinton not a christian, does it even matter,?? IMO. NOPE!!!

Like I said, your own assumptions , piled up.

[betsy]

Gun control would be a key liberal issue, i do not advocate for gun control, therefore you assumption is false, and that is all it is ,assumptions, a pile of them based on your own pre-supposed idea's.

My stance on SSM is pure common sense.

Consenting adults, marrying the person they love.

Your bias lies in your religious belief, which is not common sense, but indoctrination.

was Clinton not a christian, does it even matter,?? IMO. NOPE!!!

Like I said, your own assumptions , piled up.

Did I mention gun control? You did. But to be honest, I was surprised to hear you don't approve of the gun registry. So yes, that part would've been "assumptions".

Which you also do, assuming my "bias on SSM lies in my religious belief and indoctrination."

But you see, I've always maintained in this board from other gay-related threads that it is not for me to judge about the sins of others. That is for God. My resentment towards SSM is not about the union of homosexuals, but the changing of the traditional definition of marriage. I've also pointed out that there was a group of homosexuals who had taken out an ad, opposing this change and had expressed support for upholding the true definition of marriage! I salute those folks!

I guess they understood only too well the importance of this definition to a lot of people.

There wouldn't be so much open resentment now if gays had only decided to coin their own word for such a union, acknowledging with grace and fairness that the word "marriage" is already taken. That is only common sense to me.

[M.Dancer]

My main beef against SSM marriages is no one has invited me to one.

I hear they are fabulous.....

[newbie]

That is far from true on so many different levels. First off, the bible doesn't say anywhere that Catholics are saved but anglicans are not. Secondly, Rome doesn't say that Catholics are saved but Anglicans are not.

Certainly, the Bible, which I define to include only the Old Testament, does not.

I think the point is missed. The bible defines the faith hence the beliefs. For example, I think it's fair to say that Jevhovah's, Mormons, Jews, Seventh Day Adventists, Fundamentalist Christians et al all believe that they are the "chosen ones" and that their brand of religions is the right and true one. But if everyone used the King James there would be less open to interpretation than there is today.