security and prosperity partnership

[speaker]

It would be unfortunate to limit debate in the forums on the SPP. I'm sure there will be really serious negative consequences arise out of these secret meetings that our governments have been committed to for the last few years. If it's any consolation I expect it will be more a result of their incompetence and blinkered view of the world than the ill concieved notion of deeper integration of Canadas resources into American usage.

Looking at the work being done by a group like the Centre for Strategic and International Studies on recognizing the impact of global warming, unrestrained growth and lousy resource conservation you can see there is something being missed. It's an opportunity to help our American brethren. CSIS recently did an analysis called Futures 2025. check it out.

[jester]

Looking at the work being done by a group like the Centre for Strategic and International Studies on recognizing the impact of global warming, unrestrained growth and lousy resource conservation

What about comet or meteorite strikes, supernovas, ice ages,or even global drift.

[speaker]

Well, needless to say... There is probably no end to the good works.

I guess I was only reffering to the SPP connections though.

[runningdog]

Does anyone have any idea, a guesstimate if you will, as to how many manufacturing jobs Canada will lose this year to Mexico? Sorry Mr. Harper, but you and the other party leaders have done NOTHING to garner my trust and support. The SPP NEEDS to be brought out into the open so ordinary Canadians (ie our deminishing middle class) can see what our "leaders" are negotiating on our behalf. Let's name names as to who is benefitting from this new arrangement with usa and mexico.

[geoffrey]

Maybe people in manufacturing should think about doing something else? Somewhere along the lines, the sickle wielding wheat cutters did. As did the typist.

Society didn't end. Foreigners can do it cheaper, let's let them. I want cheaper stuff, doesn't everyone?

[speaker]

Personally I think what is needed is items that reflect the true costs of production. We can buy stuff from China cheaper at least in part because the societal costs aren't included in what we are paying for. China is paying through high environmental costs, and virtual slave labour in some sectors of their economy.

Additionally we are paying for the transportation of goods to North Am in the form of a future bill for oil and gas depletion, and it's contribution to the cost of global warming. We should be producing and buying as much as we can locally not from some sort of nationalistic financial imperative, although that's part of it, but from an urgency derived from concern for our planet and out future.

[GostHacked]

Maybe people in manufacturing should think about doing something else? Somewhere along the lines, the sickle wielding wheat cutters did. As did the typist.

Society didn't end. Foreigners can do it cheaper, let's let them. I want cheaper stuff, doesn't everyone?

If that means putting you out of a job so you cannot afford even the cheap stuff. Then go fot it.

[Catchme]

We need only look at where the desire for cheap chinese products got with the mela mine in the the protien gluton that has poisoned our food stocks, and our pets even, to see where continued trade for the ever cheaper product and larger profit margin will get us.

Who knows whats in the products you buy, thinking they are cheaper eh?

[speaker]

I think groups like the Security and Prosperity club and the Centre for Strategic etc. are missing out on hearing about the things that matter in circles beyond the little clique of business advisors that have latched on to them. Jobs, quality of produce, a touch of common sense. Mostly though just to hear some opposition to what they are planning for our future. When groups like that don't hear the objections, and they try their best not to hear it, their plans have to screw up big time just because they don't have all the factors included.

Garbage in, garbage out.

[geoffrey]

If that means putting you out of a job so you cannot afford even the cheap stuff. Then go fot it.

I'll move on, there will be something, somewhere for anyone that's willing.

[Catchme]

yes, geoffery, single people like you can, and do move along, families on the other hand cannot so easily do so, if at all. Nor should they have to, children do not do well constantly shifting schools, communities and friends.

Canada could lose the USA right now for a trade partner and still survive more than handily. There might be a blip in manufacturing job/exports, but that is a small portion of the GDP. The trade partners increases eleswhere would more than cover it, in not too long of time.

The USA wants our resources end of story, if they do not get them, well......look at their debt. Those who are advocating deep integration are not doing so out of the belief that it is good for Canadians. Because it isn't, under any circumstance.

[Wilber]

Canada could lose the USA right now for a trade partner and still survive more than handily. There might be a blip in manufacturing job/exports, but that is a small portion of the GDP. The trade partners increases eleswhere would more than cover it, in not too long of time.

The USA wants our resources end of story, if they do not get them, well......look at their debt. Those who are advocating deep integration are not doing so out of the belief that it is good for Canadians. Because it isn't, under any circumstance.

Canada exports over 450 billion a year in goods and services to the US. Losing that would be a hell of a lot more than a blip and wouldn't be replaced overnight, if at all. We face stiff competition in the Far East from countries like Russia and Australia when it comes to resource and agricultural exports. You are dreaming if you don't think the US will be our biggest market for the foreseeable future.

[speaker]

wilbur, there are differences between having a trading partner and having an integrated economy. the differences that come to mind first are having sovereignty and not., Of continuing to support the incredible misuse of our resources to our future cost or being a real friend to the USA by being able to manage those reources for a more hopeful future. Deep integration as promoted by SPP and like minded organizations has the flaw of removing local choice on economic, social, and environmental development.

Certainly the US with it's purchasing power can opt to buy from other areas of the world. To the extent that is true we have the ability to market elsewhere as well. Instead of a free trade pact we should be working on a sustainable trading partnership with nations that are working in that direction.

[Wilber]

wilbur, there are differences between having a trading partner and having an integrated economy.

Agreed, I'm just saying that anyone who thinks that kissing off the US as a trading partner wouldn't hurt us big time is out of touch with reality.

[speaker]

I suppose it would depend on how it was done. If we or the States were to go cold turkey there would probably be a lot of pain. As it stands now we do have the option of widening our marketing horizons. If the SPP and sequential Canadian governments have their way we won't. We will be part of the American Nightmare.

[bush_cheney2004]

I suppose it would depend on how it was done. If we or the States were to go cold turkey there would probably be a lot of pain. As it stands now we do have the option of widening our marketing horizons. If the SPP and sequential Canadian governments have their way we won't. We will be part of the American Nightmare.

As opposed to the "Canadian Nightmare" that wouldn't even exist without American trade and investment? This I gotta see!

[speaker]

so you're saying the Canadian nightmare wouldn't exist without the American trade and investment? It would certainly be different. however the benefits and costs would likely leave us stronger for the long haul.

[Topaz]

Canada and the US are spending big money to make the "superhighways" for the truckers to haul their loads to the countries of Canada, Mexico and the US. The is only one problem major with this idea. NO ONE wants to go into Mexico!! Truckers have reported the danger to themselves and losing their trucks and their loads to crooks that live within this country. One trucker reported that even some of the border customs, on Mexico side, are in on the crimes! The mexicans coming over with their trucks can't even pass the vechile inspections or pay the insurance required in the US. There is also the fear that, some mexicans drivers will come across and leave the truck, to enter the US illegally. Mexico definitely a violent country and I think more jobs are going to India, than any other country.

[bush_cheney2004]

so you're saying the Canadian nightmare wouldn't exist without the American trade and investment? It would certainly be different. however the benefits and costs would likely leave us stronger for the long haul.

Not bloody likely....Canada opened the doors to foreign investment many years ago by choice, and continues to do so. Go back and check the bad old days for the Canadian economy, employment rates, and budget balances.

[Wilber]

so you're saying the Canadian nightmare wouldn't exist without the American trade and investment? It would certainly be different. however the benefits and costs would likely leave us stronger for the long haul.

If we would be so much better off, why are we too stupid to do it. I'm sure someone will say it is the American's fault.

[Drea]

Actually it is our own fault for not looking at selling our resources in a more varied market (to more customers/countries).

As it is we live beside the economic powerhouse (USians are a culture of consumers which is a good thing) of the world so we've had it easy, just truck the stuff across the border and voila! money coming in.

We are not the only country, however, that is dependent on the US to be our customer. Many countries will suffer when the US can no longer afford to buy -- we'll just suffer the most...

[Higgly]

USians are a culture of consumers which is a good thing

Why is it a good thing? We are being heavily downsized by the producers.

[bush_cheney2004]

Why is it a good thing? We are being heavily downsized by the producers.

Speak for yourself....my 60" plasma HDTV says otherwise!

[speaker]

Not bloody likely....Canada opened the doors to foreign investment many years ago by choice, and continues to do so. Go back and check the bad old days for the Canadian economy, employment rates, and budget balances.

bush_cheney2004,

Back in the bad old days of the sixties when the Canadian dollar was worth more than the American, When we knew that our worth was more than our dollar represented, when a worker had to have experience before being able to get a job, when we spent a higher proportion of our income on things we needed rather than conumer throw aways, and when the national debt was way, way, way smaller than it is now? From those perspectives it's not obvious that American investment has been either necessary or benevolent.

Foreign investment is somewhat different from trade issues though both tend to collapse back to control of resources. Do you have some insight that American investment is what's driving the SPP?

Wilber said "are we too stupid..."

Wilber,

Far be it for me to pass judgement like that on our political leaders. We should be kind and merely assume that they assumed the risk to our business people would be less if we could con the Americans into doing the investing. Our financial and political leaders, often one and the same, no doubt have benefitted greatly from the practise. I think it's time to review that direction.

[Catchme]

Actually it is our own fault for not looking at selling our resources in a more varied market (to more customers/countries).

As it is we live beside the economic powerhouse (USians are a culture of consumers which is a good thing) of the world so we've had it easy, just truck the stuff across the border and voila! money coming in.

We are not the only country, however, that is dependent on the US to be our customer. Many countries will suffer when the US can no longer afford to buy -- we'll just suffer the most...

No actually, we will not suffer for long, if at all, should the US have to devalue its dollar.

There are actually trade partners who would love to access many of the Canadian markets that are currently tied up with the USA. Manufacturing may be hit, but not resource extraction products, the back bone of the Canadian economy.

Moreover, internal provincial trade markets may increase as well, with a collapse financially of the USA.