Gordon O'Connor Once Again Under Pressure

[M.Dancer]

As long as where possible they don't put a bullet in their heads (of the POWs) ....I'm okay

[Army Guy]

I think you are confused about who sent you on this Mission.

It is frustrating to me to hear you say that "the Canadian people" sent you to Afghanistan. Only a select few Canadians had any choice in the matter and most Canadians were not consulted.

I am Canadian and I did NOT send you on a mission to Afghanistan.

No i'm very clear on who sent us on the mission, the liberal government, backed up by the majority of Canadians at the time. The actual decision was made by the government of the time, but it was backed by the majority of everyday Canadians, you make it sound that you do not have a voice, and perhaps a single voice is drowned out by the majority...

but you have a voice none the less. You can't tell me that decision was not based on polls , everything the liberals did was effected by polls....

Did someone actually knock on your door and ask you personally , i'd say no, but if you were agains't the mission and wanted it to change then you should have done something about...being silent and doing nothing is a form of consent...

So i'm right in my statement of "the Canadian people sent the military to Afgan"

[uOttawaMan]

+1 Army Guy

[M.Dancer]

+1 Army Guy

Indeed.

[Charles Anthony]

So i'm right in my statement of "the Canadian people sent the military to Afgan"

Count me out.

Next time you say that think "the Canadian people minus Charles Anthony sent the military to Afgahnistan" instead. Thank you very much and I will keep paying my taxes to support YOUR mission.

[Army Guy]

Count me out.

Next time you say that think "the Canadian people minus Charles Anthony sent the military to Afgahnistan" instead. Thank you very much and I will keep paying my taxes to support YOUR mission.

I'll rephase it if it'll make you feel better, "The Majority of Canadians decided to send our military to Afgan", and at the time the minority "which includes you Charles failed to use thier voices to convince the rest of Canada that it was a bad idea...

As for it being my mission, i'd like to correct you, it's Canada's commitment, and that does includes every Canadian citizen. like it or not, we are there and we are making a difference, you just refuse to believe that...

As for taxes, thank you for your contribution, i can ensure you that your tax dollars as well as mine tax dollars are being used to re build a better Afganis nation....

You and alot of others must be tickled pink that the Majority of Canadians now believe that we should pull out of Afgan, and that soon your, what 20 or 30 dollars of your taxes can be put to other great causes...but it's all about the money is'nt.

[Charles Anthony]

I'll rephase it if it'll make you feel better, "The Majority of Canadians decided to send our military to Afgan", and at the time the minority "which includes you Charles failed to use thier voices to convince the rest of Canada that it was a bad idea...

Actually, no. It does not make me feel better. In fact, it makes me feel a lot of animosity towards people like you who insist on putting ridiculous responsibility on people like me.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe I DID use my voice to gradually convince other Canadians to pull troops out of YOUR mission?

You and alot of others must be tickled pink that the Majority of Canadians now believe that we should pull out of Afgan, and that soon your, what 20 or 30 dollars of your taxes can be put to other great causes...but it's all about the money is'nt.

I am tickled pink and no, it is not about the money. It is about principle and responsibility.

Here is a question for you: if The Majority of Canadians go broke and can not afford to bring you back to Canada, how are you going to get home?

[Rue]

The Opening Post suggests that Canadian forces are knowingly handing people over to it and are thus, in my eyes, complicit.

We can piont fingers at whom ever you want, but until they prove that POW's taken by Canadian soldiers are being tortured by Afgan government officals and Canadian soldiers know of this then really no one is complicit are they...And we are living up to the argreement signed after we refused to give them to the US.

As a soldier whom has taken part in actions that have produced prisons of war, i will say this i don't really care what happens to them after they leave my care and control, for serveral reasons, i've seen there handy work up close, they would not afford me or any of my comrads the same treatment, They are cold blooded killers, anyone who could cut off a head without blinking an eye , or a little girls hands with an axe deserves anything live has in store for them....Don't pin that morality crap on Canadian forces members. it was our government that approved the POW transfer to the Afgans, with Canadian public approval...

That leaves a couple of opitions, we build our own prison, something we have no experiance at. But after 2009 what do we do with the POW's ...let them go, give them to whom...no matter how well we run this prison there're will be nothing but grief come out of those efforts...further tarnishing our nation.

The second opition would transport them into Canada, build a prison for them here, and hold them for how long, and what do we do with them after they serve there time...we all know where this is leading to...they'll claim refugee status and end up on our streets...something i always wanted a cold blood killer living in my nieborhood..."these guys make bikers look like nannies"

Army you are the only person I will listen to on this topic and I appreciate your comments. Excuse me but I have seen what terrorists do first hand so you better believe I am listening to you and will keep my mouth shut on this topic and defer to you.

[White Doors]

I'll rephase it if it'll make you feel better, "The Majority of Canadians decided to send our military to Afgan", and at the time the minority "which includes you Charles failed to use thier voices to convince the rest of Canada that it was a bad idea...

Actually, no. It does not make me feel better. In fact, it makes me feel a lot of animosity towards people like you who insist on putting ridiculous responsibility on people like me.

Did you ever stop to think that maybe I DID use my voice to gradually convince other Canadians to pull troops out of YOUR mission?

You and alot of others must be tickled pink that the Majority of Canadians now believe that we should pull out of Afgan, and that soon your, what 20 or 30 dollars of your taxes can be put to other great causes...but it's all about the money is'nt.

I am tickled pink and no, it is not about the money. It is about principle and responsibility.

Here is a question for you: if The Majority of Canadians go broke and can not afford to bring you back to Canada, how are you going to get home?

Charles, I know it's hard but try not to be such an idiot will you?

This guy is actually serving in Afghanistan you know.

Don't be such a dork and remember your words can cause harm.

[Charles Anthony]

Charles, I know it's hard but try not to be such an idiot will you?

I concede: it is hard for me.

This guy is actually serving in Afghanistan you know.

Don't be such a dork and remember your words can cause harm.

He also puts responsibility on me for sending him there because I did nothing to stop him from being sent there. How does that work?

So, here is a question for you: what should I do if I object to The Mission In Afghanistan?

It really seems like I am expected to shut up and simply agree that I sent him there.

[Army Guy]

Actually, no. It does not make me feel better. In fact, it makes me feel a lot of animosity towards people like you who insist on putting ridiculous responsibility on people like me.

I'm not putting any responsabilty on you, you've claimed you are not part of the majority that decided to sent us over, fine you did not agree on sending our nations troops over to afgan...if you had read my post i did say the majority of Canadians...I thought i was clear, perhaps i was not...

Did you ever stop to think that maybe I DID use my voice to gradually convince other Canadians to pull troops out of YOUR mission?

again i appoligize for not being clearer in my intent, the minority failed to convince the majority that this mission was a bad idea. That being said that does not excuse them of any responabilty in regards to the mission. The majority rules and in this case it became a Canadian commitment. making it "our" mission.

He also puts responsibility on me for sending him there because I did nothing to stop him from being sent there. How does that work

Your getting the wrong impression here, i'm not blaming or putting the responsabilty on any group of people. I happen to believe in what our nation is trying to accomplish in Afgan. I've clearly stated that at the beginning of the mission so did a majority of Canadians, but since then they have been convinced other wise. for what ever reason.. Nothing has changed in regards to the mission or Canada's goals in regards to rebuilding the nation.

So, here is a question for you: what should I do if I object to The Mission In Afghanistan?

Continue to voice your opinion it's one of your basic rights, i never once told you to shut up, or your oinion was crap...that being said you should be prepared to have your opinion challaged just like you challanged mine...

[Argus]

So i'm right in my statement of "the Canadian people sent the military to Afgan"

Count me out.

Next time you say that think "the Canadian people minus Charles Anthony sent the military to Afgahnistan" instead. Thank you very much and I will keep paying my taxes to support YOUR mission.

If you choose to exempt yourself from "The Canadian people" on this topic then why not on others? Maybe you should be living elsewhere, then.

Query: Are the "Canadian people" responsible for living up to obligations signed off on towards the natives by our multiple generation removed ancestors? Can I opt out of this obligation as I was never consulted and did not agree?

The "Canadian People" sent the military on a mission to Afghanistan. Your self-righteousness is beside the point. You're either a member of the Canadian people or you ought to shut up and move on.

[Army Guy]

I am tickled pink and no, it is not about the money. It is about principle and responsibility.

Here is a question for you: if The Majority of Canadians go broke and can not afford to bring you back to Canada, how are you going to get home?

Then why bring it up, the whole thing about "me paying taxes....And yes it is about principle and responsibilty, A much poorer nation, that has been devasted by war, for over 30 years has asked us for our help, in getting back on their feet.

Give me a break, Canadians pay more on interest on our national dept in one year than we will ever put into Afgan, kind of sad when you think of just how well off we are and how much we actually spend in afgan....Just how much of your tax dollars do you think is going towards the Afgan mission anyway ?..

And if it came down to it we'd walk, swim ,float, home because, for all of us it is after all "our" home and we are Canadians that get the job done...

[Argus]

After the gitmo experence, Canadians, did'nt really care where the POW's went just not to US prisons...And since Canada does not pocess the experiance in running a POW prison, nor has the persons available to man such a facility it would quickly turn into a dogs breakfast... a good example of that is look how quickly a few roughed up POW's turned into a national inquest, and debate...how quickly did that turn into accusations of Canadian soldiers mistreating prisoners...I can just imagine the quality of prison our nation would have to set up to keep it out of the papers...and Canadians from making accusations...

Canada doesn't have to bring prisoners to Canada. And the excuse that we don't have experience operating prisoner of war camps doesn't wash. We don't have recent experience nation building either but do it now.

Amnesty says that Canada should be holding its own prisoners and training Afghans while we do it. It tend to agree with that given that we can't trust prisoners what happens to prisoners when they leave custody.

If we leave in 2009, provisions should be made to transfer prisoners to other NATO security forces.

Forever? These people are to remain stateless for their entire lives? Oh, we can just not worry about what happens to them, then. I see. This is a stupid idea on so many levels. We have always turned criminals and suspected criminals over to local authority in all UN missions in all countries where Canada has ever operated. And yes, many of those governments have a less than laudible human rights record. That's the world we operate in. And we're not about to open up our jails. Which, of course, would be judged on North American standards, and found wanting unless they were properly air conditioned, with exercise equipment, training courses, good food, bright lights - in short, unless this prison was far more comfortable than the average Afghan home.

Except that the average Afghan home is only infested with lice, roaches and rats, and this prison would inevitably be infested with lawyers - which is far worse.

[Argus]

Ayup. On the list of top 100 things which concern Canadians the welfare of terrorist suspects handed over to their own government places about near #451.

You're under the impression this increases support for the mission?

I don't think it has any relation to support for the mission. It has been cynically seized on by the opposition who are shaking fists and waving papers, of course, but the opposition is almost entirely without morals or ethics, and cares no more about these people than they do about anything else over there. They're simply trying to make a stink in hopes of increasing their election chances. Guaranteed that if Harper's government fell tonight and the Liberals were in tomorrow there would be no talk of Canada operating prisons in Afghanistan or bringing them to Canada.

[Fat Freddie]

Ayup. On the list of top 100 things which concern Canadians the welfare of terrorist suspects handed over to their own government places about near #451.

You're under the impression this increases support for the mission?

I don't think it has any relation to support for the mission. It has been cynically seized on by the opposition who are shaking fists and waving papers, of course, but the opposition is almost entirely without morals or ethics, and cares no more about these people than they do about anything else over there. They're simply trying to make a stink in hopes of increasing their election chances. Guaranteed that if Harper's government fell tonight and the Liberals were in tomorrow there would be no talk of Canada operating prisons in Afghanistan or bringing them to Canada.

More than likely the most truthful statement made here...ever. I can't for the life of me buy into any of this bullshit because none of the parties have ever come out innocent on any of these media created uggent matters of public interest. Fact is folks, most of us will continue drinking our coffee and by the time the cup is empty, we would have forgotten about these taliban fighters getting put to death by the Afghani prison system. Face it people, these murders are the same people that would be out tomorrow hunting our people and killing them if it wasn't for the actions of the Afghani prisons guards doing the work they are paid to do by their government. Just because the left is to weak kneed to accept this as a way it is over there and the right is to weak kneed to admit they love the idea its happening, well I think everyone should just have another cup of coffee and talk about our problems here in Canada and not something any Canadian official has any power over unless Dion wants to create a holding prison for these murders here in Canada, and we all know that would be political suicide since it was his government that sent the troops there in substandard gear and equipment in the first place. Taking better care of the prisoners would show how little the Liberals value Canadians over immigrant votes.

Now, coffee break is over...What was I talking about anyway.

[White Doors]

He also puts responsibility on me for sending him there because I did nothing to stop him from being sent there. How does that work?

So, here is a question for you: what should I do if I object to The Mission In Afghanistan?

It really seems like I am expected to shut up and simply agree that I sent him there.

I don't care what you do about your opinion. I am just suggesting to be more respectful of the people there.

You may not agree with it, but they are THERE. NOW.

Your opinion doesn't mean fuck all in comparison. get it?

[Charles Anthony]

I don't care what you do about your opinion. I am just suggesting to be more respectful of the people there.

In that case I will continue to voice my opinion. Saying "be more respectful" is meaningless because I was not rude.

Your opinion doesn't mean fuck all in comparison. get it?

I beg to differ. If you pay a minimal amount of attention just to the discussions in this forum, it should be abundantly clear that reservations about The Mission In Afghanistan are coming from people of different political stripes.

Furthermore, my opinion did not come exclusively from myself. I developed my opinion from paying attention to other people's opinions. They told two friends and they told two friends and so on and so on and so on. My opinion matters.

[jdobbin]

Forever? These people are to remain stateless for their entire lives? Oh, we can just not worry about what happens to them, then. I see. This is a stupid idea on so many levels. We have always turned criminals and suspected criminals over to local authority in all UN missions in all countries where Canada has ever operated. And yes, many of those governments have a less than laudible human rights record. That's the world we operate in. And we're not about to open up our jails. Which, of course, would be judged on North American standards, and found wanting unless they were properly air conditioned, with exercise equipment, training courses, good food, bright lights - in short, unless this prison was far more comfortable than the average Afghan home.

Except that the average Afghan home is only infested with lice, roaches and rats, and this prison would inevitably be infested with lawyers - which is far worse.

If Canada is going to take prisoners, it has to have some control over those prisoners as well as know what is happening with them. At the moment we have nothing. We don't if and when they are released. We don't know what intelligence is gathered. We don't know if they are tortured or executed.

NATO should run its own prison and train Afghans in the process. The situation as it stands is dangerous and doesn't exempt Canadian soldiers from being held accountable under the law for what happens when prisoners are turned over.

[jdobbin]

I don't think it has any relation to support for the mission. It has been cynically seized on by the opposition who are shaking fists and waving papers, of course, but the opposition is almost entirely without morals or ethics, and cares no more about these people than they do about anything else over there. They're simply trying to make a stink in hopes of increasing their election chances. Guaranteed that if Harper's government fell tonight and the Liberals were in tomorrow there would be no talk of Canada operating prisons in Afghanistan or bringing them to Canada.

I certainly don't think prisoners should be brought to Canada. However, turning them over for torture doesn't help raise support in Canada or Afghanistan.

[Fortunata]

The Afghani man that has been shown on tv was not a Taliban fighter, he was an ordinary person going home to get his tools. He was detained by Canadians and abused by Afghan authorities. Without proper investigations, charges and trials who knows how many innocent people get caught up in the mistreatment. THAT'S why we should all care about this. It's not a matter of protecting Taliban fighters - it's a matter of making sure you have a Taliban fighter that has committed acts against NATO forces and/or Afghan civilians before you declare they are guilty. You know, the civilized way.

[AndrewL]

As for it being my mission, i'd like to correct you, it's Canada's commitment, and that does includes every Canadian citizen. like it or not, we are there and we are making a difference, you just refuse to believe that...

What difference exactly? Im not saying Canada is not, but is there anything specific you can point to that Canada is doing to stop Afghanistan from becoming a failed state?

How do you know you are fighting AQ and the Taleban? Are you not also fighting villagers who just don't like occupiers?

The narcotics economy in Afghanistan has ballooned recently. What are you doing to stop these drug lords from doing whatever they want? Many of the traffickers are part of the Karzai government that Canada is supposed to be assisting.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0513/p01s04-wosc.html

Why has the UN moved Afghanistan up from 11 to 10 on the failed states index in late 2006?

Its not that i don't want to believe Afghanistan is doing great or that Canadian soldiers are not making a difference, its more that i don't know what the goal is. How can we say we have achieved victory when the conditions seem so vague? Is this an indefinite commitment that will eventually just ignominiously like all occupations of the ME do?

Whenever I hear murky comments like 'we are making a difference' it sounds like the comments made by americans in iraq, or even the soviets in Afgnaistan before this invasion, or even the British before that.... I just need something to hang my hat on, because just trusting the opinions of soldiers and politicians is not good enough.

Andrew

[madmax]

Whenever I hear murky comments like 'we are making a difference' it sounds like the comments made by americans in iraq, or even the soviets in Afgnaistan before this invasion, or even the British before that.... I just need something to hang my hat on, because just trusting the opinions of soldiers and politicians is not good enough.

Andrew

Hi Andrew.

Army Guy is giving his honest assessment of Afghanistan. He hasn't given me a load of BS or the RAH RAH RAH crap. The problem that the Army has, and always will have, are the politicians, every stripe.

Gord O'Connor is now a politician, and is demonstrating a level of incompetence unworthy of the position he holds. The problems in Afghanistan are complex. Your questions are valid. I would like to state that the way you are putting the questions, would almost imply that "army guy" and the Canadian Forces are responsible for the troubles and the solutions in Afghanistan.

The government has had a problem for 6 years on what to do with Afghan Prisioners. The Liberals were not anymore forth coming then the CPC. Harper continues to say stupid things, but the policies are the same and were never properly addressed.

Army Guy demonstrates that his loyalty is with those he serves with, and tries to explain the complexities of assemtrical warfare in an impoverished Islamic country where the cultural differences are very complex.

I do believe that the combat mission in the south will have little more accomplished in 2009 then it does today. I have supported a withdrawl from this strategy.

Our politicians particularly the Liberals are playing both sides of the fence regarding the needs of the mission (Should I stay or should I go).

The Conservatives resorting to Name Calling and are in Denial with regards to the prisioners and these theatrics in parliment are doing no one who is directly involved in Afghanistan, any good.

[Army Guy]

What difference exactly? Im not saying Canada is not, but is there anything specific you can point to that Canada is doing to stop Afghanistan from becoming a failed state?

Afgan

Afgan

Afgan

The above are just some of our accomplishments, but they are so many that most sites only comment on the major ones, some of the smaller ones are building schools, hospitals, fire depts, police depts, roads, paved twin highways, irigation ditchs, demining living and farming areas, providing small amounts of cash directly towards the villages for items like wells, books, items for schools, on top of this lets not forget things that the soldiers and thier families are doing , handing out toques, gloves and mittins knitted by Canadian volenteers, gathering up tones of school supplies, handing out the tonnes of donated clothing, toys, shoes, boots, the list is endless, basically anything that has been sent to afgan...

Aranging activities for the kids , a couple months ago it was a major soccer tourney over 500 kids , try doing that in a war zone that list goes on and on.

Since i have left they are now starting construction of another pave hyway from the pakistan border which was a dirt road but a major artry into Afgan....

Alot is happening over there, our soldiers are not just fighting and dying , most of our missions are providing assistance to the people of Afgan, it is common place for most soldiers to work 18 to 20 hour days providing assistance.

How do you know you are fighting AQ and the Taleban? Are you not also fighting villagers who just don't like occupiers?

Actually there is more factions than just the AQ, and Taliban, there is mercs, warlords, militia etc etc many different groups working again'st what we are trying to do, That being said i do not want to give you the impresion that most of the country is again'st us...most either tolerate our presence, or support us....

I'm not going to BS you there are Afganis that don't want us there, and i'm sure they have armed themselfs and engaged us at some piont...

The narcotics economy in Afghanistan has ballooned recently. What are you doing to stop these drug lords from doing whatever they want? Many of the traffickers are part of the Karzai government that Canada is supposed to be assisting.

We have done counter drug operatioons, but they are counter productive in my opinion, these farmewrs need to feed thier families and until we provide them with another cash crop of similar value these operations are not going to produce results...it would be like telling praire farmers they could not grow wheat or other top dollar crops...Drug dealers don't do what ever they want, when things get out of hand we use force to control the situation, they know we carry a bigger stick, although there have been some that thought they had a bigger stick and have engaged NATO forces and lost.

Whenever I hear murky comments like 'we are making a difference' it sounds like the comments made by americans in iraq, or even the soviets in Afgnaistan before this invasion, or even the British before that.... I just need something to hang my hat on, because just trusting the opinions of soldiers and politicians is not good enough.

The difference between my opinion and a politions is I don't care if you trust me or not, i'm not trying to sell you something, get your vote, or promising you anything , in fact the only reason i post on this forum is to try and bring some fact and trurth into some of the topics....bringing one soldiers opinion to the debate, thats all.

Want to hang your hat on something, take a look at what sacrafice our soldiers endure everyday to do this job. Combat soldiers live for the most part outside the wire, in which your adrenilen is always pumping , your spidey sense always tingling, very exhausting after weeks at a time...we live in deep ditchs, covered in dust, dirt, insects , snakes and everything else that crawls...not seeing showers for weeks sometimes months, personal hygine consists of a wet nap and a cup of water to brush your teeth with...living in extreme heat summer time temps over 50 c doing all that while wearing over 50 pounds of protective equipment and carrying a 60 lb ruck sack....now do it all in a combat enviroment.. we seen over 20 of my comrads killed and countless wounded.

DID i mention that i volenteered not once but twice, infact all of us are volenteers, nobody is forced to go...Yes it's our job, we get paid to do all that, but i get paid wether i'm doing that in Afgan or Canada in a warm bed, showers etc etc ...and yet we continue to put our lives on hold and indanger because we believe we are making a difference , because we see that we are making a difference, because we believe that this is really what Canadians want us to do.

Assist those that can not defend themselfs, to help rebuild thier nation so that they can enjoy some of the basic freedoms we take for granted everyday. Are we experts on what we are doing, combat yes, but all the rest by no means , are we going to make mistakes you bet, are we doing the best possiable job we are capable of , you bet....

But when i look done the line I don't see a whole lot of those agencies that specialize in certain areas, what i do see is a long line of Canadian soldiers all doing the job , because they stepped up and said we'll do it...and they do it without complaining, with old and tired equipment , and without the support from the majority of Canadians in regards to the mission... but most importantly we continue to do it, because it is the right thing to do, it's a Canadian thing to do.

If that is to murky for you i apoligize, but that is what i believe in, that is why i keep volenteering to go back, and not just me thousands of Canadian soldiers.

[Charles Anthony]

If that is to murky for you i apoligize, but that is what i believe in, that is why i keep volenteering to go back, and not just me thousands of Canadian soldiers.

You are being very clear and I appreciate it.

There is something that is unclear to me.

The above are just some of our accomplishments, but they are so many that most sites only comment on the major ones, some of the smaller ones are building schools, hospitals, fire depts, police depts, roads, paved twin highways, irigation ditchs, demining living and farming areas, providing small amounts of cash directly towards the villages for items like wells, books, items for schools, on top of this lets not forget things that the soldiers and thier families are doing , handing out toques, gloves and mittins knitted by Canadian volenteers, gathering up tones of school supplies, handing out the tonnes of donated clothing, toys, shoes, boots, the list is endless, basically anything that has been sent to afgan...

What exactly are soldiers doing?

The website says: "supporting NGO workers who were delivering CIDA - funded aid – constructing schools, drilling wells, and improving public sanitation."

Are Canadian soldiers doing construction?