Radical Islam is Wrecking the World - Or, Why Can't Anyone Tell th

[cybercoma]

Why do Muslims kill other Muslims in Iraq?

[Jerry Galinda]

Why do Muslims kill other Muslims in Algeria ?

BTW. Why muslims supported Nazis (e.g. in Egypt) ?

[BZBee]

......Such certainty in the afterlife cheapens the reality of the earthly life and makes the living and breathing dispensable. Mix that with the technology to cleanse the earth of humans altogether and we have a huge problem.

Andrew

And are you certain there is no afterlife? If you are, just how did you come to that conclusion? Not everyone who believes in an afterlife considers their present life dispensable. Many are not willing to blow themselves up to find out but hope there is something after this life. Some believe that hell is right here on earth so there must be something better.

quote name='AndrewL']

I view all religious belief as radical, since any religious belief requires a suspension of logic and a leap of faith, it can only be radical in regards to rationality.

Maybe those who believe in religion believe that disbelief requires a suspension of logic and a leap of faith and the disbelievers are radical and irrational?

But there are many Jews who still reside in Montreal, or who have family living in Montreal, or people like Anne and myself who live outside of Quebec but still use the hospital, who contribute to the JGH every year.

From personal experience, I can say that you don't have to be Jewish to be the recipient of excellent care at the JGH or to contribute. It is certainly a wonderful institution with brilliant doctors. My ex-husband worked there and thought it was the cat's meow.

quote name='AndrewL' date='Apr 23 2007, 06:00 PM' post='211386']

I did read your post, and your argument comes across as if someone were singing the virtues of chemotherapy after it cured their lung cancer, when in fact they could have just avoided lung cancer and chemo altogether if they just didn't smoke.

Andrew

Off subject: Unfortunately, lung cancer is not exclusive to those who smoke so avoidance by your suggested method is not realistic; does that make singing the virtues of chemo more appropriate?

[ScottSA]

Bertrand Russell's Celestial Teapot, written in 1952:

If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

Russell wrote this to show that the burden of proof lies on the religious to prove their claims. By simply rejecting something as implausible, it is not the atheist or agnostic who is bringing something to the table that needs to be proven. It lies squarely on the shoulders of the religious.

But why should the religious have to justify their beliefs? Richard Dawkins probably says it best in The Devil's Chaplain:

The reason organized religion merits outright hostility is that, unlike belief in Russell's teapot, religion is powerful, influential, tax-exempt and systematically passed on to children too young to defend themselves. Children are not compelled to spend their formative years memorizing loony books about teapots. Government-subsidized schools don't exclude children whose parents prefer the wrong shape of teapot. Teapot-believers don't stone teapot-unbelievers, teapot-apostates, teapot-heretics and teapot-blasphemers to death. Mothers don't warn their sons off marrying teapot-shiksas whose parents believe in three teapots rather than one. People who put the milk in first don't kneecap those who put the tea in first.

It is precisely because of a belief in the teapot known as God that this type of division and suffering happens. I think it is reasonable to suggest that those who believe in this teapot, be made to justify such insane claims.

Let's parse out the argument a bit, and start by rejecting the latter, since I am not arguing in support of organized religion, I am arguing in support of God. But before we dispense with it entirely, I will say again that I am not an adherent of any organized religion, but my children all attend private Catholic schools. They do not attend Catholic school because I think Catholicism is flawless or because I think God wears a hat slightly bigger than a pope's, they attend Catholic school because Catholics have not yet turned morality on its head and have not given in to relativism.

That brings us to teapots, which were all the rage as an allegory at one time, no less with Dante's upside down teapot or Carroll's March Hare's teapot than Russell's, and indeed Carroll, a much brighter man than Russell, used his teapot to mock Russell's:

"...the last time she saw them, they were trying to put the Dormouse into the teapot." I'll leave it to you to figure out what he means by this.

But anyway, the fallacy Russell commits is obvious. There is no question answered by Russell's teapot, no anecdotal evidence of it, no reason for it to exist, and every evidence that such a teapot, by it's design, would be made by the hands of man if indeed it did exist. It's a cheap and tawdry analogy, and to make matters even worse it rests its point on the singular argument that the only evidence of God's existence is the fact that people believe in God. That's a bit of a fabricated tautology, and really doesn't address the issue in any but the most superficial way. A pox on lesser minds like Russel.

The literature dealing with God is incredibly rich in its philosophical roots, but let me take just one stream of thought and apply it to the ideation. There are many many more, but this one will do for now:

Lukacs was one of the alleged "Western marxists", and one of the main ideas he espoused was the idea that theory could become praxis by the mere fact of theory's existence; that is to say that if a man begins digging a basement, it is because he envisions a house, and the fact of him envisioning a house means the house exists; it is merely a matter of time before what he envisions becomes fact, theory becomes praxis. Lukac's central thesis in asserting this is the very reasonable proposition that anything we can conceive of is likely true. Secular society has its own similar idea, in that the capabilities of Man are endless; that whatever we can conceive of can come true. The envirofreaks like Woody are so set in this notion that they think unlimited clean energy is just a switch away.

What secular society fails to realize is that the same argument applies to the existence of God on a number of different levels, not least that every society everywhere and always, from stoneage to advanced industrial, conceives of and largely believes in a Maker. I realize the atheists among us imagine that they are more clever and more numerous than they really are, but people who believe in God range from the simplisticly faithful to the incredibly intelligent. Russel has nothing on Thomas Merton, let me tell you, but the point is that atheism is not a "progress" toward the future, but merely a bit of humanist conceit. Applying Lukac's thesis, the fact that Man can conceive of God is itself evidence of God's existence.

I fully admit that I have faith in a God and in an afterlife, but that is not to say that I merely have faith, or that I embrace faith as a shortcut to explain away the unexplainable. On the contrary, I rather suspect that atheists are the ones who don't think very deeply, but instead simply reject the existence of God with very little thought.

[cybercoma]

The fact that Man can conceive of God is itself evidence of God's existence.

The fact that I can conceive of a million dollar check in my name is not evidence of such a thing's existence.

[ScottSA]

The fact that Man can conceive of God is itself evidence of God's existence.

The fact that I can conceive of a million dollar check in my name is not evidence of such a thing's existence.

But you are not the collective of Man.

[BZBee]

The fact that I can conceive of a million dollar check in my name is not evidence of such a thing's existence.

Ah, but a check for a million dollars in your name can exist; I can write you one....doesn't mean you can actually cash it but if I write it, it will exist.

[Jerry Galinda]

This is the basic question .

Why do Muslims kill other Muslims in Algeria ?

Why do Muslims kill other Muslims in Iraq ?

BTW. Why muslims supported Nazis (e.g. in Egypt,Iraq) ?

[jbg]

Why do Muslims kill other Muslims in Iraq?

This very good question is the subject of the thread. The rest of the debate, which assumes an equivalence of radical Islam with Christianity and Judaism, is not.

One can far easier defend the concept of organized religion as a method of bringing sense to a seemingly random and chaotic world than one can defend a death cult whose goal is the termination, subjugation or intimidation of rivals.

[cybercoma]

Why do Muslims kill other Muslims in Iraq?

This very good question is the subject of the thread. The rest of the debate, which assumes an equivalence of radical Islam with Christianity and Judaism, is not.

One can far easier defend the concept of organized religion as a method of bringing sense to a seemingly random and chaotic world than one can defend a death cult whose goal is the termination, subjugation or intimidation of rivals.

Their killing other Muslim because they have different beliefs about a more than likely superstitious being in the sky. It's the in-group/out-group mentality I've been talking about. Although they're under the much larger flag of "Islam", they have differing beliefs.

For crying out loud, why do Christians kill other Christians in Ireland?

Oh, I'm sorry, was hating someone with different beliefs supposed to be unique to Islam?

The fact is that all religions view those outside their group as inferior.

Would you agree with your Jewish daughter marrying someone who is Hindu? Christian? Islamic? Buddhist? Mormon?

Regardless of your personal opinion, most religious people don't want their children marrying outside their religion. The problem is not unique to a particular religion, religion as a whole views outsiders as inferiors.

[Jerry Galinda]

Why Muslims killed the people who was printing the Bible in Turkey ?

[weaponeer]

The Islamic Republic Of Canada...... It will have a nice ring to it....

[Guthrie]

The Turkish govt has some interesting perspective on this subject

Turkey was the first religous govt (Islamic) to become secular.

how radical is that???

[jbg]

For crying out loud, why do Christians kill other Christians in Ireland?

Oh, I'm sorry, was hating someone with different beliefs supposed to be unique to Islam?

The fact is that all religions view those outside their group as inferior.

Would you agree with your Jewish daughter marrying someone who is Hindu? Christian? Islamic? Buddhist? Mormon?

Regardless of your personal opinion, most religious people don't want their children marrying outside their religion. The problem is not unique to a particular religion, religion as a whole views outsiders as inferiors.

I don't have a Jewish daughter. I have two sons.

I wouldn't agree on their marrying a Hindu, etc., but that's based on our negative population growth. I would not urge my children to discriminate against other religions nor allow it at my business.

[WestViking]

Their killing other Muslim because they have different beliefs about a more than likely superstitious being in the sky. It's the in-group/out-group mentality I've been talking about. Although they're under the much larger flag of "Islam", they have differing beliefs.

For crying out loud, why do Christians kill other Christians in Ireland?

Oh, I'm sorry, was hating someone with different beliefs supposed to be unique to Islam?

The fact is that all religions view those outside their group as inferior.

Would you agree with your Jewish daughter marrying someone who is Hindu? Christian? Islamic? Buddhist? Mormon?

Regardless of your personal opinion, most religious people don't want their children marrying outside their religion. The problem is not unique to a particular religion, religion as a whole views outsiders as inferiors.

I don't think Muslim infighting has much to do with religion as it has to do with ancient strife over scarce resources and 'blood feuds'.

The same can be said of the Irish 'troubles'. The media played up the Catoholic vs Protestant angle, but most of the bitterness traced back to clan and other disputes outside faith.

Here in Canada we have countless examples of differing congregations coming to the aid of one another in times of disaster. A church burns and neighbouring congregations offer their church until the burned building can be replaced. Various churches serve the whole community at funerals, for example, and work together for charity.

Where I live, various Christian denominations, Jewish denominations, Hindus, Mormons, Hutterites, Menonites and various others manage to live in harmony and respect one another's religious views. We do not get into strife or harm one another.

[Jerry Galinda]

Does it mean that Iraqis are not tolerant ?

[Drea]

I wouldn't agree on their marrying a Hindu, etc., but that's based on our negative population growth. I would not urge my children to discriminate against other religions nor allow it at my business.

"Based on our negative population growth"? What Hindus don't have children? You say you would not agree on your sons marrying Hindu (etc) women but at the same time you say you would not urge your children to discriminate -- bull**it!

BTW, What "etc"?

[Jerry Galinda]

Why do Sunnis kill Shiites in Iraq ?

[ScottSA]

I wouldn't agree on their marrying a Hindu, etc., but that's based on our negative population growth. I would not urge my children to discriminate against other religions nor allow it at my business.

"Based on our negative population growth"? What Hindus don't have children? You say you would not agree on your sons marrying Hindu (etc) women but at the same time you say you would not urge your children to discriminate -- bull**it!

BTW, What "etc"?

He doesn't want his grandkids worshipping cows or painting bulletholes on their foreheads. Got a problem with that? Discrimination is quite normal...why the west is so obsessed with pretending otherwise is quite beyond me. Every Asian and African country makes no bones about discrimination...The Han Chinese are probably almost as bad as the Japanese, but not quite as bad as the Hutu.

I think what he means is that he doesn't teach his kids to throw rocks at Hindus, but he doesn't want one in the family because Judaism has a negative growth rate and they don't let cows wander through synagogues. I want my daughter to marry a Scotsman because blonde has been a factor among the girls in my family since photography was invented, and it's damned hard to produce a blonde from the squirtings of a Rastafarian.

[M.Dancer]

mmmmmm...hindi women......mmmmmm

[Jerry Galinda]

Why Muslims killed the people who was printing the Bible in Turkey?

[Jerry Galinda]

mmmmmm...hindi women......mmmmmm

Are you hungry ?

[Remiel]

I wouldn't agree on their marrying a Hindu, etc., but that's based on our negative population growth. I would not urge my children to discriminate against other religions nor allow it at my business.

Well, that would seem rather foolish, jbg. What if their children were raised under the tenets of the Jewish faith? If Hindus have positive population growth, wouldn't you have a possible better chance of having more grandchildren if one of your sons married a Hindu woman?

[cybercoma]

He doesn't want his grandkids worshipping cows or painting bulletholes on their foreheads. Got a problem with that? Discrimination is quite normal...why the west is so obsessed with pretending otherwise is quite beyond me. Every Asian and African country makes no bones about discrimination...The Han Chinese are probably almost as bad as the Japanese, but not quite as bad as the Hutu.

I think what he means is that he doesn't teach his kids to throw rocks at Hindus, but he doesn't want one in the family because Judaism has a negative growth rate and they don't let cows wander through synagogues. I want my daughter to marry a Scotsman because blonde has been a factor among the girls in my family since photography was invented, and it's damned hard to produce a blonde from the squirtings of a Rastafarian.

Funny how you demand respect for some religions but not others. You're angry at me for calling belief in scriptures and religious teachings as superstitious, yet you go on to be completely insulting to Hindu people.

The things done in the name of religious worship most certainly are asinine, just as much so with every other religion. Having cows wander through your place of worship is almost as silly as transubstantiation.

[M.Dancer]

Having cows wander through your place of worship is almost as silly as transubstantiation.

Try milking a host......