Is it racist to hate Muslim extremists?

[DogOnPorch]

Funny that you'd employ a strawman against an alleged strawman.

lol...No offense...but...didn't you just do it, too?

Uh huh. So when people like you bang on about the "west"...etc

I'll be over here... (slinks away towards exit)

-------------------------------------------------

Johnny Cochran: Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, Chef's attorney would certainly want you to believe that his client wrote "Stinky Britches" ten years ago. And they make a good case. Hell, I almost felt pity myself! But, ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!

Kyle's Dad: Dammit!

Chef: What?

Kyle's Dad: He's using the Chewbacca Defense!

---South Park

[Black Dog]

Funny that you'd employ a strawman against an alleged strawman.

lol...No offense...but...didn't you just do it, too?

Uh huh. So when people like you bang on about the "west"...etc

I'll be over here... (slinks away towards exit)

No, that's not a strawman. I guess I could sift through Scottie's posts ( a task akin to cleaning the Augean stables) to find examples, but I can tell you I'm not making this up.

Now obviously, there's a difference between employing collective identities and using collective identities as the basis of a political movement, but the idea of a collective identity centred around individualism seems a bit weird, don't you think?

[Peter F]

ScottSA:

But that's not the point, is it? Collectivist Nazism killed Jews. Serbians killed Bosnian Muslims with approximately the same gusto that Bosnian Muslims killed Serbians. You may have noticed that "we" didn't jump up and down and cheer it on across the globe either. You may have noticed that Christians are not blowing up things in Islamic lands in the name of Christ.

So I take it you agree that us non-Muslims are just as capable of being pricks as any Muslim. Wich is my point.

I'm confused about what your point is. So far I gather you are saying that Islam is a clear and present danger to ... well, everybody, and that if Islam wasn't Islam then Islam would just be as much of a danger as Nazism in the 30's and 40's, or communism in the 30's to 80's.

Any fruitcake can use religion to rationalize thier actions. The mistake you are making, I think, is that you beleive that when a Muslim saws through somebodys neck and says they are doing that for the greater glory of God - You beleive them. And so you conclude that its thier religion that demands Muslims to kill non-believers. Therefore a rightous Muslim will proceed to kill unbelievers.

If that were true, and with a billion Muslims in the world, there'd be alot more shit going on than there is.

Exploding car bombs in Iraq isn't about Religion - its about power, but uses relgion as its justification

Just as you attempt to justify persecution of Muslims by your claim that Christianity is a superior religion.

I repeat; We are just as much a bunch of pricks as they are. So you can dismount from the morally high-horse.

[ScottSA]

The mistake you are making, I think, is that you beleive that when a Muslim saws through somebodys neck and says they are doing that for the greater glory of God - You beleive them. And so you conclude that its thier religion that demands Muslims to kill non-believers. Therefore a rightous Muslim will proceed to kill unbelievers.

If that were true, and with a billion Muslims in the world, there'd be alot more shit going on than there is.

There is a great deal of shit going on, from Russia to Indonesia to New York. There are 2 hundredd and fortysome terrorist groups self-identified as Muslim terrorist groups around the globe. By far the lion's share of terrorist activity today is Islamic violence. I don't know exactly what threshold you would like to draw before the shit hits a level you'd call "a lot", but it's obviously right up there.

If someone does something and then claims it's for X reason, I have no choice but to believe them. It would be highly presumptuous of me not to believe them. But it's not on the strength of that alone that I conclude its their religion that stands behind their actions, it's that I, like a lot of folks in the post 911 world, took the time to read up on their religion. We're not the first wave to do so; a century ago Winston Churchill took the time to do so and came to the same conclusion: Islam is not and never was a religion of Peace. There is no corrective in Islam like there is in Christainity; there is no New Testament. At its very root Islam is a religion premised upon violence. Whereas Christ rhetorically asked the sinless to cast the first stone in an attempt to avoid the stone, Islam demands that the stone be cast. Islam has trodden along for centuries without anyone caring what its tenets were; it is only now that it is being examined, and only fools would continue to slavishly worry about being "open-minded" and tolerant about a religion that actively demands either jizra or their deaths. I suggest you take the time to read a translation of the Koran. There are five different translations that are generally accepted by academia. Any one of them will open your eyes far more than hunkering down behind the myth of 'tolerance' and refusing to believe your eyes.

Incidently, I'm not a Christian or a Jew, nor any other religion in particular, but here's a decent argument...obviously not as strongly put as I would prefer, but hey...

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0210bt.asp

[Rue]

In the Troop Surge thread, I opined on the issue of Muslim extremists and the conversation shifted to one of racism. Not wanting to hijack the thread, I'm moving the issue here and posing the question: is it racist to hate Mulim extremists?

Its not racist to hate anyone who is an extremist. It is racist if you make negative generalizations about all Muslims.

As it is when ever we have a post on anything to do with the Middle East the same 3 posters write in and make generalized slurs against anyone who supports Israel and suggests Israel is to blame for anything and everything in the Middle East. Generalizations are tiresome and quite frankly the manifestation of intellectually lazy people who need to simplify that which is too complex for their brains to assimilate without easy negative slurs and creating bad and good guys.

I think it is important we do not lose sight of the fact that Muslim extremists who engage in terroris, are just that, terrorists and extremists first and foremost. The fact they claim to be Muslim to me is a red herring. The fact that they are facist violent brutal animals that believe in using murder and chaos to express political will does.

As far as I am concerned Iran is a regime run by people who have no respect for the law and believe in sponsoring and supporting terrorism and engaging in it to get their political veiws showcased.

That makes them in my opinion cowardly Norway rats. wait I shouldn't insult the rats.

[Peter F]

First off, I have read the Koran (English translation) and found it to be quite a remarkable work. I found it to expouse the priniples of mercy, toleration, humility and concern for your brother man. I also found it to be full of a lot of damnation and fire and brimstone for those who do not follow the path God lays out for them.

On the other hand, I am no Imam, I have not devoted a large amount of my time studying the Koran, let alone in its original version, So I'd be a fool to tell you what it says. Obviously you have read it yourself and I'm sure you have also studied it in depth, so can go toe to toe with any Imam about the nature and message of the Prophet. On the other hand, maybe not. Perhaps you're just as much as a rank amateur about the Koran as I. If so, then I think you are being foolish in regards to what the Koran says or doesnt say.

What really bugs my ass is a bunch of Christians producing opinion pieces and study's that compare Islam to Christianity and, surprise, surprise, come to the conclusion that Islam is not as good as Christianity.

I acknowlege that at present and for the last 30 years, terrorist activity has been mostly carried out by persons claiming to be Muslims. My view of that is: if they are terrorists then they can't be Muslims.

My grandfather was a Christian, he attended church regularly, was a fine upstanding man in the community, and after he finished raping his daughters would sit with them and read passages of the bible to cleanse them (his daughters) of thier sin. He was no Christian despite what he said - his actions put the lie to his words.

Your argument is that because they are Muslims it is what makes them terrorists. By the same logic I can say that Christianity leads to pedophilia and incest. There are many examples of good christians raping the alter boys or the children at the residential schools. I'm sure somebody knows what logical fallacy would apply here.

So you shout the warning that the danger isn't terrorism but Islam itself for, according to you, Islam is terrorism. But you don't say, and you never have that I have seen, What it is that us westerners should be on guard against? What ? Conversion? Don't Convert, is that the warning?

Terrorism then? or is it immigration? Too many Muslim immigrants and they'll take over? sorta like the yellow peril of the late 1800's?

What are you warning us against? Why this fear of Islam?

[Peter F]

deleted - double post

[ScottSA]

First off, I have read the Koran (English translation) and found it to be quite a remarkable work. I found it to expouse the priniples of mercy, toleration, humility and concern for your brother man. I also found it to be full of a lot of damnation and fire and brimstone for those who do not follow the path God lays out for them.

You have obviously not read what you ought to have read prior to reading the Koran, if indeed you have read the koran. Which English translation did you read? Have you hear about the concept of 'abrogation'? That's the Muslim legal concept that renders all the early touchy feely stuff irrelevant, and allows the later really nasty stuff to supercede it.

I sincerely doubt you have read the Koran, somehow. In point of fact, the so-called 'fundamentalists' can correctly claim to be the proper Muslims, since they are following the text more closely than the alleged moderates. That's simply fact, whether it "pisses you off" or not.

If you can't figure out the danger, there's no point in me explaining it to you.

[Canadian Blue]

Whereas Christ rhetorically asked the sinless to cast the first stone in an attempt to avoid the stone

Actually, many Biblical scholars dispute that Jesus even said that. Bart Ehrman goes over it in his book.

Islam has trodden along for centuries without anyone caring what its tenets were; it is only now that it is being examined, and only fools would continue to slavishly worry about being "open-minded" and tolerant about a religion that actively demands either jizra or their deaths. I suggest you take the time to read a translation of the Koran. There are five different translations that are generally accepted by academia. Any one of them will open your eyes far more than hunkering down behind the myth of 'tolerance' and refusing to believe your eyes.

I own a Koran, do you mind telling me where exactly to find these super violent texts which will destroy our society are.

The same can be said of Christianity, that religion has been marred with religious war and intolerance as well. Read the book of Revelations. Christian texts were used to support many evils, racism, slavery, war, etc.

I sincerely doubt you have read the Koran, somehow. In point of fact, the so-called 'fundamentalists' can correctly claim to be the proper Muslims, since they are following the text more closely than the alleged moderates. That's simply fact, whether it "pisses you off" or not.

Please, the Westboro Baptist Church claims to be the only Christians as well, but I don't believe them. Personally I prefer to listen to people who study Islam for a living, instead of some nut on a political forum.

ScottSA, leave the Muslims alone!!!

[moderateamericain]

O for christ sakes, Comparing a dislike for Extremist Islamic fundamentalism to Hating gays and women? The three are not even remotely linked. Not only is it bad form to insinuate its a down right fallacious argument. Black dog you can think whatever you want about people like me. I'm sure its some where along the lines of a Redneck, driving a pick up truck, living in a trailer park, married to my sister. But the fact of the matter is because people don't like a particular small segment of one particular culture doesn't make them intolerant of another. Because I don't like metro-sexual men does not mean i go out looking for them to beat up. Because I don't like fundamentalist Islamic people does not mean I wanna put Bacon in there food. Besides I got to do something better, shoot at them. (thats a joke) If you wanna call me Intolerant or racist or a bigot because I'd rather see radical islamic dead then Americans, Okay I am a huge bigot.

[Canadian Blue]

Moderateamerican, are you sure Black Dog wasn't referring to ScottSA, you know, that guy.

If someone does something and then claims it's for X reason, I have no choice but to believe them. It would be highly presumptuous of me not to believe them.

Because it sounds alot more idealistic to fight for god than the real reasons. It's the same everywhere, if lets say a government wants to fight for some land, will they say they want men to die for land. Probably not, you are more likely to hear cliches thrown around like "fighting for liberty, democracy, and freedom".

[ScottSA]

I own a Koran, do you mind telling me where exactly to find these super violent texts which will destroy our society are.

I already have. I'm sorry you suffer from ADD, but I'm not going to plunk the same stuff in front of your eyes every time.

[moderateamericain]

Moderateamerican, are you sure Black Dog wasn't referring to ScottSA, you know, that guy.

If someone does something and then claims it's for X reason, I have no choice but to believe them. It would be highly presumptuous of me not to believe them.

Because it sounds alot more idealistic to fight for god than the real reasons. It's the same everywhere, if lets say a government wants to fight for some land, will they say they want men to die for land. Probably not, you are more likely to hear cliches thrown around like "fighting for liberty, democracy, and freedom".

He may have been referring to Scottsa, however he directed at anyone who thinks in a similar fashion. While I may not take it as far as ScottSA and am certainly much more left leaning on some issues, it was easy to see it wasn't directed solely at him. And I am not making an attack on Black dog per say, but the idea he is presenting. That because of not liking X, means i hate t,y, and z. And its not the first time ive heard that.

[Liam]

I won't even get into this Nazi = Christianity debate...

I've heard that the first person in a debate who brings up Hitler or Nazi's automatically loses. Don't know who did it here. Don't care. The issue is Islamic extremism.

[Peter F]

You have obviously not read what you ought to have read prior to reading the Koran, if indeed you have read the koran. Which English translation did you read? Have you hear about the concept of 'abrogation'? That's the Muslim legal concept that renders all the early touchy feely stuff irrelevant, and allows the later really nasty stuff to supercede it.

I sincerely doubt you have read the Koran, somehow. In point of fact, the so-called 'fundamentalists' can correctly claim to be the proper Muslims, since they are following the text more closely than the alleged moderates. That's simply fact, whether it "pisses you off" or not.

Ah, so you have studied the Koran in depth, you even know and understand concepts of Islam such as

'abrogation'. Well, then, you have one up on me. All's I've done is read the thing and I will not be foolish enough to the Koran argue with one who is a scholar of Islamic tradition.

If you can't figure out the danger, there's no point in me explaining it to you.

In wich case I call: Chicken shit.

[Canadian Blue]

I already have.

So, it shouldn't be to tough to show it again.

I'm sorry you suffer from ADD

No, but I think this article will help you deal with some issues you have.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/fear-o...2943275709.html

but I'm not going to plunk the same stuff in front of your eyes every time.

Which is what, you showcasing your fear of all Muslims.

[Figleaf]

...you're an intellectual lightweigtht. ...

Reported.

I'll keep that in mind and report any slips by you in the future.

Just don't push your luck. I already let you get away with calling me pipsqueak on another thread. You need to improve your habits or you won't last long around here.

[M.Dancer]

Boy, did you as a child, run to mommy every time your knees got scrapped?

It seems reporting posters is your substitute for backing up your light weight arguments......

[Guthrie]

The clowns who make false claims about the Koran show only bigotry, hate and a willingness to spread lies to support their ugly and false beliefs.

[ScottSA]

The clowns who make false claims about the Koran show only bigotry, hate and a willingness to spread lies to support their ugly and false beliefs.

Yes, that's true. The only problem is that I have actually backed up my claims, but all you have done is call me names. Woody, namecalling is not a good substitute for argument. In fact, to borrow your adjectives, it's ugly and false.

[Figleaf]

Boy, did you as a child, run to mommy every time your knees got scrapped?

It seems reporting posters is your substitute for backing up your light weight arguments......

Please refer me to a place that I failed to back up my arguments.

I see no reason to allow a poster to fall into a pattern of abusing other posters. If that's the sort of thing you're looking for, you're probably in the wrong place. You might have some firsthand understanding of that, right?

[ScottSA]

Boy, did you as a child, run to mommy every time your knees got scrapped?

It seems reporting posters is your substitute for backing up your light weight arguments......

Please refer me to a place that I failed to back up my arguments.

I see no reason to allow a poster to fall into a pattern of abusing other posters. If that's the sort of thing you're looking for, you're probably in the wrong place. You might have some firsthand understanding of that, right?

Please show me a place where you backed up an argument with anything more than a big tearful emote. Oops, is that reportable too?

[Figleaf]

I'm sorry you suffer from ADD,

Reported.

[Figleaf]

Boy, did you as a child, run to mommy every time your knees got scrapped?

It seems reporting posters is your substitute for backing up your light weight arguments......

Please refer me to a place that I failed to back up my arguments.

I see no reason to allow a poster to fall into a pattern of abusing other posters. If that's the sort of thing you're looking for, you're probably in the wrong place. You might have some firsthand understanding of that, right?

Please show me a place where you backed up an argument with anything more than a big tearful emote.

Please refer me to a place that I failed to back up my arguments.

If you can.

[ScottSA]

I'm sorry you suffer from ADD,

Reported.

Well, obviously you're intimidated enough to try to have me ejected so you can continue to snipe away like a lightweight. I can't exactly say I'm honored; it's like intimidating a cornered mouse, but it speaks volumes about you.