The Issue of Ethanol

[blueblood]

It's only been two plus years. Give him time.

Canada wasn't about to win a battle of the subsidies with the Europeans and the Americans. More subsidies in Canada were likely to cause prices to go down even further.

Citation on grain being used by farmers to heat their homes? I find that hard to believe for most Canadian farmers.

The evidence is that ethanol using food is causing inflation. If it takes enough corn to feed one person for a year to fuel an SUV, it is not good for the economy. This might be great for farmers but we are seeing areas of the market getting hit hard by this including parts of the farm economy.

Ethanol using food for fuel hardly helps the environment.

If it is so easy, why have the law at all?

Doubtful on helping the environment and food inflation or lack of grain or corn for the food market hurts other areas of the economy.

Right now food inflation is causing starvation and deaths around the world.

Like I said if people are complaining about high prices, grow your own and cash in on the good times.

Harper kept his biggies, but he will break more.

As far as the law question, the same logic as the gun control bill.

If Canadians were subsidised, prices wouldn't matter wouldn't it, the Europeans obviously proved that.

I know of some people that have that heater, it looks like a wood stove. They had them advertised in a ag catalog a couple years ago. Then it was a very cheap way to heat the home.

How is it not good for the economy, in a commodity economy like Canada's a person wants their goods to be worth more when they get sold. When we export to say Syria or Iran, if they pay more for our goods, we get richer. How is ethanol not good for John Deere, their factory is sold out. Shares in ag business companies are sky high.

If the world is at such a panic right now, why is Canola and Flax being grown, poor people can't afford those crops. If the sky is falling and the world is in a panic, shouldn't the entire country be wheat, corn, potatoes, and rice? Lets not forget the pets of some people who are trying to gut ethanol, they eat better than a third world person ever will.

Food inflation is not causing deaths, it is third world farmers being forced out of business by dumping from subsidised countries. It is much better to burn our overproduction and let poorer people cash in on higher prices than force them out of business and have them wait on inconsistent food dumps. There are some countries right now in South Asia that are making money off the biofuel boom such as Malaysia, Singapore, and Thailand, should they not be allowed to make money because soom elitists from the city feel it is their God given right to cheap food?

Canada makes a great portion of it's money in primary industries these days. It is smart government policy to encourage growth in these industries any way possible. Manufacturing is dying partly because of Canadian workers pricing themselves out of a job. I don't see what the problem about having a prosperous rural economy is so troubling to city dwellers. The Albertans have done well with how the oil industry has been handled, and now rural Canada is cashing in on how the grain industry is being handled.

[jdobbin]

Like I said if people are complaining about high prices, grow your own and cash in on the good times.

Yes, we keep hearing that from some farmers. Grow your own but keep subsidizing ethanol as a far income support.

Harper kept his biggies, but he will break more.

Like on transparency.

As far as the law question, the same logic as the gun control bill.

I have no idea what this was in response to.

If Canadians were subsidised, prices wouldn't matter wouldn't it, the Europeans obviously proved that.

A subsidy for a subsidy?

I know of some people that have that heater, it looks like a wood stove. They had them advertised in a ag catalog a couple years ago. Then it was a very cheap way to heat the home.

This is your citation?

How is it not good for the economy, in a commodity economy like Canada's a person wants their goods to be worth more when they get sold. When we export to say Syria or Iran, if they pay more for our goods, we get richer. How is ethanol not good for John Deere, their factory is sold out. Shares in ag business companies are sky high.

Why does ethanol have to be subsidized if grain is doing so well now?

If the world is at such a panic right now, why is Canola and Flax being grown, poor people can't afford those crops. If the sky is falling and the world is in a panic, shouldn't the entire country be wheat, corn, potatoes, and rice? Lets not forget the pets of some people who are trying to gut ethanol, they eat better than a third world person ever will.

I never said panic. I said that ethanol doesn't help the environment. It is just a farm support system.

Food inflation is not causing deaths, it is third world farmers being forced out of business by dumping from subsidised countries. It is much better to burn our overproduction and let poorer people cash in on higher prices than force them out of business and have them wait on inconsistent food dumps. There are some countries right now in South Asia that are making money off the biofuel boom such as Malaysia, Singapore, and Thailand, should they not be allowed to make money because soom elitists from the city feel it is their God given right to cheap food?

Citation for this claim?

Canada makes a great portion of it's money in primary industries these days. It is smart government policy to encourage growth in these industries any way possible. Manufacturing is dying partly because of Canadian workers pricing themselves out of a job. I don't see what the problem about having a prosperous rural economy is so troubling to city dwellers. The Albertans have done well with how the oil industry has been handled, and now rural Canada is cashing in on how the grain industry is being handled.

Ethanol was not supposed to be a farm support system. It was supposed to better for the environment and it was supposed to use waste products. Now, we have even more corn and grain being diverted over to ethanol and consumers are forced to buy it and subsidize it. Kind of socialist for rural people to advocate this, right?

[blueblood]

Yes, we keep hearing that from some farmers. Grow your own but keep subsidizing ethanol as a far income support.

Like on transparency.

I have no idea what this was in response to.

A subsidy for a subsidy?

This is your citation?

Why does ethanol have to be subsidized if grain is doing so well now?

I never said panic. I said that ethanol doesn't help the environment. It is just a farm support system.

Citation for this claim?

Ethanol was not supposed to be a farm support system. It was supposed to better for the environment and it was supposed to use waste products. Now, we have even more corn and grain being diverted over to ethanol and consumers are forced to buy it and subsidize it. Kind of socialist for rural people to advocate this, right?

I find it funny that those who advocate a cheap food policy, which involves producing grain below the cost of production, won't pony up the cash for a support system in order for that type of a policy to work. Rural Manitoba is benefitting largely because of this, small businesses in towns are better off, and there is more tax dollars in the provincial coffers due to higher land values.

It's about as socialist as the Alberta gov't subsidizing oil companies, but not as socialist as the Liberal government's abysmal ag policy of producing grain at less than production to subsidize an urban dweller's lifestyle. Remember that farmers are taxpayers too, and there are some things we don't approve of tax dollars going to as well. Nobody is forced to buy ethanol, you can buy a bike or walk around. Grain selling for a little over two dollars a bushell in the early part of the decade is waste.

With ethanol the reserves are getting prolonged and emissions are reduced, the ag industry is profitable again, and food in Canada is still not priced out of this world. It is also a much cheaper and much more efficient support system than what used to be in place, plus it creates jobs and allows us to export more oil.

[jdobbin]

I find it funny that those who advocate a cheap food policy, which involves producing grain below the cost of production, won't pony up the cash for a support system in order for that type of a policy to work. Rural Manitoba is benefitting largely because of this, small businesses in towns are better off, and there is more tax dollars in the provincial coffers due to higher land values.

I find it funny that farmers think this was ever meant as a farm support system.

Seems some farmers will cling to whatever reason to keep the program going even if it turns out to be bad for the environment and food supply.

It's about as socialist as the Alberta gov't subsidizing oil companies, but not as socialist as the Liberal government's abysmal ag policy of producing grain at less than production to subsidize an urban dweller's lifestyle. Remember that farmers are taxpayers too, and there are some things we don't approve of tax dollars going to as well. Nobody is forced to buy ethanol, you can buy a bike or walk around. Grain selling for a little over two dollars a bushell in the early part of the decade is waste.

What an attitude farmers have. "No one is forced to drive so if you don't like how we force you to buy our grain in gas, don't drive. " Nice.

Pretty high handed for socialist farmers.

And once again, it was the Liberals who started this program and wish to expand it which some farmers continue to deny for partisan reasons.

I am the one who is saying that it is the wrong direction to go and does nothing to help with environment so long as it doesn't use actual bio-mass waste.

With ethanol the reserves are getting prolonged and emissions are reduced, the ag industry is profitable again, and food in Canada is still not priced out of this world. It is also a much cheaper and much more efficient support system than what used to be in place, plus it creates jobs and allows us to export more oil.

Once again, it was never meant as a farm support system. The reserves are not being prolonged significantly because the demand for oil has not gone down. And emissions are a high as ever when transportation, fertilization and opening new fields to cultivation are considered.

[blueblood]

I find it funny that farmers think this was ever meant as a farm support system.

Seems some farmers will cling to whatever reason to keep the program going even if it turns out to be bad for the environment and food supply.

What an attitude farmers have. "No one is forced to drive so if you don't like how we force you to buy our grain in gas, don't drive. " Nice.

Pretty high handed for socialist farmers.

And once again, it was the Liberals who started this program and wish to expand it which some farmers continue to deny for partisan reasons.

I am the one who is saying that it is the wrong direction to go and does nothing to help with environment so long as it doesn't use actual bio-mass waste.

Once again, it was never meant as a farm support system. The reserves are not being prolonged significantly because the demand for oil has not gone down. And emissions are a high as ever when transportation, fertilization and opening new fields to cultivation are considered.

Hell it's a better support system than the one when PM PM and Chretien were in power. Saying the Canadian food supply is in trouble is completely proposterous, which is why it is only at a piddly 5%. It's pretty high handed that those in urban areas are trying to take away a very profitable market for us which has improved returns by 200-300 dollars an acre.

We get that attitude from the attitude that we are supposed to produce food at below the cost of consumption and not get paid for it. But are suppossed to be happy when we get our 500 dollar liberal feel good cheques, how does 500 dollars make a difference when my fertilizer bill is 160 K and fuel is 40K??? By paying taxes you are forced to fund the big oil companies in Alberta, and the fact that there are only gasoline fuel stations, you are forced to buy gasoline if you want to drive a vehicle around. Why aren't there electric cars around urban Canada???

The Liberals are split on this issue. The Tories have formally implemented it when in office. The Liberals got as far as making it an election promise which holds as much water as the GST promise.

Fertilization, and opening new fields have been around long before ethanol, I busted up a 10 acre marsh which makes me more money and I save on fuel from dealing with the damn thing.

I however will agree with you on the fact that cellulosic ethanol technology needs to increase. With the high amount of cellulose floating around Canada, there is the potential to drive down fuel prices and gives a market for waste that ends up being burned, used for bedding, or just rots.

[jdobbin]

Hell it's a better support system than the one when PM PM and Chretien were in power. Saying the Canadian food supply is in trouble is completely proposterous, which is why it is only at a piddly 5%. It's pretty high handed that those in urban areas are trying to take away a very profitable market for us which has improved returns by 200-300 dollars an acre.

Once again, it isn't supposed to be a farm support system. Farmers are going to get burned if they come to expect this to be permanent when bio-waste programs start to dominate.

We get that attitude from the attitude that we are supposed to produce food at below the cost of consumption and not get paid for it. But are suppossed to be happy when we get our 500 dollar liberal feel good cheques, how does 500 dollars make a difference when my fertilizer bill is 160 K and fuel is 40K??? By paying taxes you are forced to fund the big oil companies in Alberta, and the fact that there are only gasoline fuel stations, you are forced to buy gasoline if you want to drive a vehicle around. Why aren't there electric cars around urban Canada???

Ask the Tories why there aren't electric cars on the road. They won't approve them.

The Liberals are split on this issue. The Tories have formally implemented it when in office. The Liberals got as far as making it an election promise which holds as much water as the GST promise.

Total and absolute lie which has been show to you dozens of times. Ethanol funding was already happening under Martin's government and building was taking place. The Manitoba plant was under construction with money that the Liberal government put into place even before the Tories came into power.

As for any split, there is only one Liberal MP who has spoken against the issue.

If right wingers are just going to lie outright here they won't help their case.

Fertilization, and opening new fields have been around long before ethanol, I busted up a 10 acre marsh which makes me more money and I save on fuel from dealing with the damn thing.

I however will agree with you on the fact that cellulosic ethanol technology needs to increase. With the high amount of cellulose floating around Canada, there is the potential to drive down fuel prices and gives a market for waste that ends up being burned, used for bedding, or just rots.

I fear grain and corn producers are going to fight true bio-waste producers like the Montreal company that produces ethanol from garbage. Farmers will never give up their present farm support system.

We are going to see more land that has been marginal being broken up to fill our gas tanks.

[HisSelf]

Biofuels are the revenge of the equatorial downtrodden. If you have sunlight, you can produce ethanol from sugar very cheaply. If you don't, you are reaching. Some countries (Brazil) have their act together enough to benefit from it. Others (Philippines) are so screwed up by corruption, they may never realize the benefit.

Let's hope the World Bank is paying attention to this litmus test. If countries like the Philippines are not able to leverage themselves from this bounty, then it is time to stop shovelling money at them and let them starve until they revolt..

Not so long ago, Pinoys revolted against Gloria Macapagal Arroyo, the latest priviledged landowner who has taken control of the Philippines (forgetting the clown show provided by that booze-addled cinema star - what was that idiot's name?). It was the right thing to do. In spite of all the drama over there - Cory, Gringo, Estrada, yadda yadda yadda, the ruling class is still the same bunch of half wits.

Are Pinoys going to get their act together now or are they going to continue to be putched around by the idiot class that Marcos and his like created?

[blueblood]

Once again, it isn't supposed to be a farm support system. Farmers are going to get burned if they come to expect this to be permanent when bio-waste programs start to dominate.

Ask the Tories why there aren't electric cars on the road. They won't approve them.

Total and absolute lie which has been show to you dozens of times. Ethanol funding was already happening under Martin's government and building was taking place. The Manitoba plant was under construction with money that the Liberal government put into place even before the Tories came into power.

As for any split, there is only one Liberal MP who has spoken against the issue.

If right wingers are just going to lie outright here they won't help their case.

I fear grain and corn producers are going to fight true bio-waste producers like the Montreal company that produces ethanol from garbage. Farmers will never give up their present farm support system.

We are going to see more land that has been marginal being broken up to fill our gas tanks.

Farmers have been burned by having Liberals sit in 13 years of office and handing out 500 dollar feel good checks. How do we get burned, even with bio waste, fossil fuels won't be replaced so it won't matter. Then there is China and India eating and making biofuels. The new price floor of wheat is around 6 bucks.

Liberals didn't approve electric cars either.

I have not seen one part in PM PM's tenure and Chretiens tenure where there was targets for Biofuels, it was only an election promise. Harper has actually put these into place and it is the opposition holding it up. Funding a couple plants is not a strategy.

Pick up a Western Producer, there is more than one MP.

Marginal land has been broken up for years to give away grain. How does this work, you don't want marginal land broken up to produce more grain, by that logic there shouldn't be a food crisis then. If there was a serious food crisis, growing Canola would be outlawed and there would be more incentive to break up marginal land.

According to the University of Saskatchewan, Agriculture and Agribusiness is a 95 billion dollar a year industry and the third largest employer in Canada, it makes perfect sense to have the farmers making money so that the spin off industries are even more profitable and helps the economy. The ethanol industry boosts this large sector of the economy and makes it more valuable. This ethanol debate is much more than the environment, it is about jobs and strengthening the economy. Holding back a huge industry such as this is flat out ivory tower arrogance. Why should urban dwellers and government employees only be allowed to make a living?

Your idea of agriculture in Canada is outdated and completely untenable, and it was proven time and again during the 90's and first half of this decade.

On another note, this debate shows the urban and rural divide in this country. I seriously believe that whoever can bridge this gap will win the majority government, and if this is the attitude of Liberal supporters in Canada, they will never get that majority.

[jdobbin]

Farmers have been burned by having Liberals sit in 13 years of office and handing out 500 dollar feel good checks. How do we get burned, even with bio waste, fossil fuels won't be replaced so it won't matter. Then there is China and India eating and making biofuels. The new price floor of wheat is around 6 bucks.

If the price is going up for grain, all the more to get farmers off the ethanol welfare.

Liberals didn't approve electric cars either.

Considering that the Canadian electric car didn't apply for an road application till after 2006, I'm not surprised.

I have not seen one part in PM PM's tenure and Chretiens tenure where there was targets for Biofuels, it was only an election promise. Harper has actually put these into place and it is the opposition holding it up. Funding a couple plants is not a strategy.

Afraid it was a strategy despite the lies some right wingers tell themselves.

Pick up a Western Producer, there is more than one MP.

Name the Liberals opposed beside Martin.

Marginal land has been broken up for years to give away grain. How does this work, you don't want marginal land broken up to produce more grain, by that logic there shouldn't be a food crisis then. If there was a serious food crisis, growing Canola would be outlawed and there would be more incentive to break up marginal land.

Marginal land used for fuel is a waste.

According to the University of Saskatchewan, Agriculture and Agribusiness is a 95 billion dollar a year industry and the third largest employer in Canada, it makes perfect sense to have the farmers making money so that the spin off industries are even more profitable and helps the economy. The ethanol industry boosts this large sector of the economy and makes it more valuable. This ethanol debate is much more than the environment, it is about jobs and strengthening the economy. Holding back a huge industry such as this is flat out ivory tower arrogance. Why should urban dwellers and government employees only be allowed to make a living?

Why should farmers need ethanol for a subsidy if grain is going up already?

Your idea of agriculture in Canada is outdated and completely untenable, and it was proven time and again during the 90's and first half of this decade.

Your idea is socialist.

On another note, this debate shows the urban and rural divide in this country. I seriously believe that whoever can bridge this gap will win the majority government, and if this is the attitude of Liberal supporters in Canada, they will never get that majority.

And the Tories won't either.

[Wild Bill]

And the Tories won't either. <form a majority by bridging the divide between the rural and the urban vote>

Perhaps not. Still, it was Manning and the Reform/Alliance that brought denim wearing folks into their party.

The Liberals still appear to be the party of the 3-piece suit!

[blueblood]

If the price is going up for grain, all the more to get farmers off the ethanol welfare.

Considering that the Canadian electric car didn't apply for an road application till after 2006, I'm not surprised.

Afraid it was a strategy despite the lies some right wingers tell themselves.

Name the Liberals opposed beside Martin.

Marginal land used for fuel is a waste.

Why should farmers need ethanol for a subsidy if grain is going up already?

Your idea is socialist.

And the Tories won't either.

Mario De Silva and Scott Brison are two MPs.

Why didn't the Liberals lobby to GM to bring over the EV-1, they are the party of the environment.

If I own marginal land and want to use it to make more money, that is my right and privelege. I won't touch it if the price is right.

Taking out ethanol will drop the prices and put us back into debt so we can "enjoy" the Liberal feel good chump change. Apparently you believe that rural canada doesn't deserve to be prosperous. Ethanol is making rural Canada prosperous. More than farmers benefit from ethanol. The price of grain has also been slashed in half since february.

No the liberals didn't have a strategy when in office, they funded a couple of plants. When the tories came in ethanol got a major boost with the 5% strategy. The Liberals 10% strategy can be smoke and mirrors for all I know.

The idea that farmers should give away their crops to urban dwellers and not get compensated for it is socialist. Alberta used this strategy with the oil industry and Alberta is now one of the richest regions on the planet. If your fine with Manitoba being a have not province, go for it. Ethanol is a way to provide jobs in Manitoba, and boost the economy.

Grain Farmers are much better off under tory rule. Urban Canadian's life is still fairly good. The tories have a much better chance than the Libs.

So the economy of Manitoba is only allowed to improve if only Winnipeg benefits???

[jdobbin]

Mario De Silva and Scott Brison are two MPs.

Two MPs out of an entire caucus. And both have issue with grain and corn rather than ethanol itself.

Why didn't the Liberals lobby to GM to bring over the EV-1, they are the party of the environment.

I have one even better. Why don't the Liberals lobby for wheat sheet paper from farmers rather then food for fuel. That way farmers will be able to actually get rid of waste on their land and make a lot of money while at the same time help the environment.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...PStory/National

For the first time in North America, a glossy magazine will be published on paper made from the pulp of wheat straw, a development advocates say could herald the birth of a new resource industry that would alleviate some of the pressure on Canadian forests.

The paper, known as the wheat sheet, is the product of more than 10 years of research by scientists at the Alberta Research Council. It's made from 20-per-cent wheat straw and 40-per-cent recycled paper, and its creator says it rivals any glossy paper made primarily from virgin timber.

"I know this is going to sound somewhat anticlimactic, but it actually looks just the same as the other stuff, which is a really good thing from a publishing standpoint," said Wade Chute, team leader for the project at the research council.

The paper was used to print the latest issue of Canadian Geographic, hitting newsstands today, part of a four-year collaboration with environmental group Markets Initiative, which was instrumental in the green printing of the Harry Potter books.

I'd support that 100%.

If I own marginal land and want to use it to make more money, that is my right and privelege. I won't touch it if the price is right.

Go right ahead. But don't then call ethanol carbon neutral if it means cultivating new land to produce ethanol.

Taking out ethanol will drop the prices and put us back into debt so we can "enjoy" the Liberal feel good chump change. Apparently you believe that rural canada doesn't deserve to be prosperous. Ethanol is making rural Canada prosperous. More than farmers benefit from ethanol. The price of grain has also been slashed in half since february.

Apparently, farmers believe an environment program that produces more carbon and uses food for fuel should be supported. Apparently, farmers believe urban Canada should pay their hard earned tax for a program that doesn't do what it says.

No the liberals didn't have a strategy when in office, they funded a couple of plants. When the tories came in ethanol got a major boost with the 5% strategy. The Liberals 10% strategy can be smoke and mirrors for all I know.

I think you keep forgetting that the was the policy of every major party in the 2006 election and that the Tories have gotten full support for the new legislation from everyone except the NDP who changed their mind.

The idea that farmers should give away their crops to urban dwellers and not get compensated for it is socialist. Alberta used this strategy with the oil industry and Alberta is now one of the richest regions on the planet. If your fine with Manitoba being a have not province, go for it. Ethanol is a way to provide jobs in Manitoba, and boost the economy.

What a load of crap that is. Albertans are coming to recognize that their royalty program was too low and hurting their future after oil. There was a lot sympathy for subsidies for the oil industry when it was starting out. For a time, it was needed to help fund research and give supports to oil that was tough to find, refine and develop but now, it is a waste of taxpayers dollars.

Ethanol was never meant as a farm support system. It was supposed to be an alternative energy using waste that was going to reduce carbon. Growing food specifically for fuel was never what it was intended for.

Grain Farmers are much better off under tory rule. Urban Canadian's life is still fairly good. The tories have a much better chance than the Libs.

And urban dwellers can do better than the Tories when it comes to protecting their money. The Tories are spending cash like drunk sailors.

So the economy of Manitoba is only allowed to improve if only Winnipeg benefits???

How about we actually use waste wheat straw instead of grain if we want a good environmental program that doesn't put food into gas tanks. Farmer in rural Manitoba will benefit and then the rest of Canada won't see food jacked up for a questionable program.

Edited May 24, 2008 by jdobbin

[blueblood]

Two MPs out of an entire caucus. And both have issue with grain and corn rather than ethanol itself.

I have one even better. Why don't the Liberals lobby for wheat sheet paper from farmers rather then food for fuel. That way farmers will be able to actually get rid of waste on their land and make a lot of money while at the same time help the environment.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...PStory/National

I'd support that 100%.

Go right ahead. But don't then call ethanol carbon neutral if it means cultivating new land to produce ethanol.

Apparently, farmers believe an environment program that produces more carbon and uses food for fuel should be supported. Apparently, farmers believe urban Canada should pay their hard earned tax for a program that doesn't do what it says.

I think you keep forgetting that the was the policy of every major party in the 2006 election and that the Tories have gotten full support for the new legislation from everyone except the NDP who changed their mind.

What a load of crap that is. Albertans are coming to recognize that their royalty program was too low and hurting their future after oil. There was a lot sympathy for subsidies for the oil industry when it was starting out. For a time, it was needed to help fund research and give supports to oil that was tough to find, refine and develop but now, it is a waste of taxpayers dollars.

Ethanol was never meant as a farm support system. It was supposed to be an alternative energy using waste that was going to reduce carbon. Growing food specifically for fuel was never what it was intended for.

And urban dwellers can do better than the Tories when it comes to protecting their money. The Tories are spending cash like drunk sailors.

How about we actually use waste wheat straw instead of grain if we want a good environmental program that doesn't put food into gas tanks. Farmer in rural Manitoba will benefit and then the rest of Canada won't see food jacked up for a questionable program.

Wheat straw paper wouldn't be worth much, wood products including paper, are in the toilet now for price wise, nobody really uses paper as much these days as in the 70's. It's cheaper to get cellulose from wood, which is why we have a lumber industry. LP has briefly shut their plant down for a while. I'd get more money if it was put to cellulosic ethanol.

Albertan's also know that if they don't rock the boat, they won't lose their wealth. That's why they subsidize and keep rates low, they are also one of the richest areas in the world, why mess with a good thing. Saskatchewan has finally caught on to this approach, and so has the Tory gov't with the ethanol strategy. When agriculture and agribusiness is one of the largest employers in the country, it makes sense to have high commodity prices in order to grow and prosper.

When oil is vastly approaching 200 dollars a barrell, it's going to have to be both cellulosic and starch for ethanol. In the cooperator it says that the American ethanol program can't shut down due to the vast amounts of fuel being produced keeping gas prices down and billions more are being funnelled in to get it going more so.

If you think farmers have recently started cultivating new land, you need to step outside the city, that's been going on for years because it is good economic practice to do so.

The new biofuel industry, hydroelectricity, and petroleum are how Manitoba is going to get out of being a have not province. Canada now has more oil for export, we aren't giving away our crops to countries around the world who don't want to pay for them, and our agriculture sector is where it should be.

When the economy of Canada is relying so heavily on commodities, it makes sense for prices to be high, it improves our economy. With so many Canadians doing well now, the very little that the price of food rises is a useless argument. As it has been proven time and again the high price of food has to do with transport and processing. The biofuel industry has saved the ag sector and is the best thing to happen since they used to give 1/4 sections away.

What you are wanting grain farmers to do is like telling a doctor he has to give up his salary to work for 10 bucks an hour because people are complaining about the high cost of healthcare in their taxes and in their visits to the private clinic, but in order to offset that, they can sell some crutches or bandages on the side.

[jdobbin]

Wheat straw paper wouldn't be worth much, wood products including paper, are in the toilet now for price wise, nobody really uses paper as much these days as in the 70's. It's cheaper to get cellulose from wood, which is why we have a lumber industry. LP has briefly shut their plant down for a while. I'd get more money if it was put to cellulosic ethanol.

Prices for glossy paper are not in the toilet.

And with more magazines going to recycled or more environmentally fiendly paper, it is going to be a lucrative market. However, go ahead and dismiss it.

Albertan's also know that if they don't rock the boat, they won't lose their wealth. That's why they subsidize and keep rates low, they are also one of the richest areas in the world, why mess with a good thing. Saskatchewan has finally caught on to this approach, and so has the Tory gov't with the ethanol strategy. When agriculture and agribusiness is one of the largest employers in the country, it makes sense to have high commodity prices in order to grow and prosper.

Subsidizing businesses that don't need it because of rising commodity prices in general is a waste of money. And true conservative knows that. The Tories we have now spend money like drunken sailors.

When oil is vastly approaching 200 dollars a barrell, it's going to have to be both cellulosic and starch for ethanol. In the cooperator it says that the American ethanol program can't shut down due to the vast amounts of fuel being produced keeping gas prices down and billions more are being funnelled in to get it going more so.

And that is why food prices are going to go sky high. More and more food into gas tanks.

If you think farmers have recently started cultivating new land, you need to step outside the city, that's been going on for years because it is good economic practice to do so.

Economic maybe. Just don't call ethanol a way of reducing carbon.

The new biofuel industry, hydroelectricity, and petroleum are how Manitoba is going to get out of being a have not province. Canada now has more oil for export, we aren't giving away our crops to countries around the world who don't want to pay for them, and our agriculture sector is where it should be.

Food for fuel is going to increasingly come under attack. The subsidies and protection offered farmers is going to have a backlash against it. We are starting to hear some voices on the right added to that opposition.

When the economy of Canada is relying so heavily on commodities, it makes sense for prices to be high, it improves our economy. With so many Canadians doing well now, the very little that the price of food rises is a useless argument. As it has been proven time and again the high price of food has to do with transport and processing. The biofuel industry has saved the ag sector and is the best thing to happen since they used to give 1/4 sections away.

Stop taking taxpayer money if things are going so well.

What you are wanting grain farmers to do is like telling a doctor he has to give up his salary to work for 10 bucks an hour because people are complaining about the high cost of healthcare in their taxes and in their visits to the private clinic, but in order to offset that, they can sell some crutches or bandages on the side.

No, what I want is a program that actually does what it is supposed to do which is reduce carbon. Ethanol doesn't. It is a farmer welfare program.

[scribblet]

Parliament passed legislation today that will require all gasoline sold in Canada to contain 5 percent ethanol by 2010

The bill, which also calls for diesel to contain 2 percent renewable fuels by 2012, won the support of the main opposition Liberal Party but was opposed by two smaller parties that had voiced concern about food-crop production being diverted to fuel. Very real concerns, but I guess we don't care if people starve to death or not.

[blueblood]

Prices for glossy paper are not in the toilet.

And with more magazines going to recycled or more environmentally fiendly paper, it is going to be a lucrative market. However, go ahead and dismiss it.

Subsidizing businesses that don't need it because of rising commodity prices in general is a waste of money. And true conservative knows that. The Tories we have now spend money like drunken sailors.

And that is why food prices are going to go sky high. More and more food into gas tanks.

Economic maybe. Just don't call ethanol a way of reducing carbon.

Food for fuel is going to increasingly come under attack. The subsidies and protection offered farmers is going to have a backlash against it. We are starting to hear some voices on the right added to that opposition.

Stop taking taxpayer money if things are going so well.

No, what I want is a program that actually does what it is supposed to do which is reduce carbon. Ethanol doesn't. It is a farmer welfare program.

For one that is saying the sky is falling with the manufacturing sector and our economy is about to go in the toilet, it makes little sense to hold back an industry that won't be affected by the problems in the states especially with oil approaching 200 dollars a barrell.

According to the IEA biofuels save 1 million barrels per day of oil in the U.S. and E.U. That would appear to be a lot of Carbon. Read that point in the Manitoba Cooperator.

There has been strong backlash by Argentinian farmers who are being ripped off by their government with views like yours that they have to produce cheap food and not be paid for it, they went on strike and soybeans are priced even higher.

The only voices on the right I hear in opposition are oil companies and evangelicals.

Western Canada is poised to do very well economically with the energy sector, we should embrace that especially when manufacturing is in serious trouble.

If western Canadian farmers aren't suppossed to do well with the prices being supported by ethanol production then doctors in private clinics should be working at 10 bucks an hour and University profesors should be working for 10 bucks an hour, those guys are screwing over poor people just as hard as high food prices. High food prices and lower supply will give incentive to those in poorer countries to start growing their own food and food for export. I'd rather not put poor people out of business, the cheap food policy puts poor people out of business.

If it is my responsibility to provide people with cheap food, then I expect to receive a nice fat subsidy just like the Europeans get to help pay for my costs.

People have been starving for ever, long before biofuels came into being. With this new strategy, Canadian ag producers have a new market for their products which will help ensure better prices and a stronger economy. Food prices will still be affordable in Canada, the government will see to that.

[jdobbin]

For one that is saying the sky is falling with the manufacturing sector and our economy is about to go in the toilet, it makes little sense to hold back an industry that won't be affected by the problems in the states especially with oil approaching 200 dollars a barrell.

I haven't said our economy is going in the toilet.

According to the IEA biofuels save 1 million barrels per day of oil in the U.S. and E.U. That would appear to be a lot of Carbon. Read that point in the Manitoba Cooperator.

However, carbon is produced to grow and manufacture that ethanol

There has been strong backlash by Argentinian farmers who are being ripped off by their government with views like yours that they have to produce cheap food and not be paid for it, they went on strike and soybeans are priced even higher.

Ethanol is not meant as an expensive food program. Never was. It isn't farmer welfare.

The only voices on the right I hear in opposition are oil companies and evangelicals.

Baloney. Even here there are voices on the right opposed.

Western Canada is poised to do very well economically with the energy sector, we should embrace that especially when manufacturing is in serious trouble.

If western Canadian farmers aren't suppossed to do well with the prices being supported by ethanol production then doctors in private clinics should be working at 10 bucks an hour and University profesors should be working for 10 bucks an hour, those guys are screwing over poor people just as hard as high food prices. High food prices and lower supply will give incentive to those in poorer countries to start growing their own food and food for export. I'd rather not put poor people out of business, the cheap food policy puts poor people out of business.

Your argument once again makes no sense. Ethanol is supposed to be an environmental program. It was supposed to use waste products. It is now using food for fuel which was never its intent.

If it is my responsibility to provide people with cheap food, then I expect to receive a nice fat subsidy just like the Europeans get to help pay for my costs.

Farmers get a lot of welfare already. Time to get off the dole.

People have been starving for ever, long before biofuels came into being. With this new strategy, Canadian ag producers have a new market for their products which will help ensure better prices and a stronger economy. Food prices will still be affordable in Canada, the government will see to that.

Farmers are in for a big surprise. It will be urban versus rural soon. Given the population, urban wins. Every time.

[blueblood]

I haven't said our economy is going in the toilet.

However, carbon is produced to grow and manufacture that ethanol

Ethanol is not meant as an expensive food program. Never was. It isn't farmer welfare.

Baloney. Even here there are voices on the right opposed.

Your argument once again makes no sense. Ethanol is supposed to be an environmental program. It was supposed to use waste products. It is now using food for fuel which was never its intent.

Farmers get a lot of welfare already. Time to get off the dole.

Farmers are in for a big surprise. It will be urban versus rural soon. Given the population, urban wins. Every time.

It isn't welfare, but it benefits us indirectly.

1 million barrels a day saved. That's according to the IEA. If you want to take that out of production, I hope you are willing to pay the huge spike in gas at the pumps associated with it, and the still more expensive groceries at the store due to high transport costs.

We aren't on the dole as much as the European countries, if you want cheap food, put us on the dole at their level and "secure the food supply"

Grain sold for 2.50 a bushell when it costs more to produce it is a waste.

Having high prices also gives incentive to remove subsidies in Europe and remove tariffs on imported food.

Farmers are also not on the dole, they contribute far more in tax than the average Canadian. If we didn't pay tax, I'd accept that point.

In Canada we now have a system that is helping us with energy, keeping our food supply sustainable, and making an industry extremely profitable and helping the economy. Taking that away would be like forcing doctors and university professors to work for 10 dollars an hour. Would you give up a 6 figure job to work for 10 dollars an hour because some ivory tower philosopher says that you are gouging people?

Playing the urban rural game makes everyone lose, in Argentina their farmers are on strike, they lose because they aren't making money, and the urban people there lose because they have to pay even higher prices because they have to import food when they could easily grow their own. With the labour shortage in Canada, playing that game would be a national disaster.

The debate shouldn't be growing food vs. fuel, it should be what do consumers value more energy or food? We have been told through the 90s by ivory tower elites that farming is a business and risky, etc. Now that business is good, we have the same ivory tower elites telling us that we now have to feed the people. Talk about having cake and eating it too.

Western Canada is now living in a very good economic situation, taking that away will bring about some big trouble.

[jdobbin]

It isn't welfare, but it benefits us indirectly.

You say tomato, I say tomato. Certainly sounds like welfare since farmers are adamant, it is part of a support system for them.

1 million barrels a day saved. That's according to the IEA. If you want to take that out of production, I hope you are willing to pay the huge spike in gas at the pumps associated with it, and the still more expensive groceries at the store due to high transport costs.

We are already paying through the nose due to demand.

Ever since Manitoba switched to forced ethanol, people have noticed poorer mileage. So how much have we really saved?

We aren't on the dole as much as the European countries, if you want cheap food, put us on the dole at their level and "secure the food supply"

You need supports because they get supports and because American gets supports. Farmer welfare makes farmers poorer.

Grain sold for 2.50 a bushell when it costs more to produce it is a waste.

Having high prices also gives incentive to remove subsidies in Europe and remove tariffs on imported food.

If you think it is going to remove subsidies and tariffs around the world, you are pretty optimistic.

Farmers are also not on the dole, they contribute far more in tax than the average Canadian. If we didn't pay tax, I'd accept that point.

Citation for this claim?

In Canada we now have a system that is helping us with energy, keeping our food supply sustainable, and making an industry extremely profitable and helping the economy. Taking that away would be like forcing doctors and university professors to work for 10 dollars an hour. Would you give up a 6 figure job to work for 10 dollars an hour because some ivory tower philosopher says that you are gouging people?

Watching farmers get royal treatment is not going to make anyone who isn't a farmer happy.

Playing the urban rural game makes everyone lose, in Argentina their farmers are on strike, they lose because they aren't making money, and the urban people there lose because they have to pay even higher prices because they have to import food when they could easily grow their own. With the labour shortage in Canada, playing that game would be a national disaster.

Are people there paying even higher prices? Prove it.

The debate shouldn't be growing food vs. fuel, it should be what do consumers value more energy or food? We have been told through the 90s by ivory tower elites that farming is a business and risky, etc. Now that business is good, we have the same ivory tower elites telling us that we now have to feed the people. Talk about having cake and eating it too.

I just don't want to pay a subsidy to ethanol that I don't think work just so that farmers have live in the dole.

Western Canada is now living in a very good economic situation, taking that away will bring about some big trouble.

If Eastern Canada continues to get squeezed by high prices and have to pay taxes to support ethanol, you can be sure they will look to cut that subsidy.

They certainly won't stand for farmers getting subsidies and living high on the hog.

[blueblood]

You say tomato, I say tomato. Certainly sounds like welfare since farmers are adamant, it is part of a support system for them.

We are already paying through the nose due to demand.

Ever since Manitoba switched to forced ethanol, people have noticed poorer mileage. So how much have we really saved?

You need supports because they get supports and because American gets supports. Farmer welfare makes farmers poorer.

If you think it is going to remove subsidies and tariffs around the world, you are pretty optimistic.

Citation for this claim?

Watching farmers get royal treatment is not going to make anyone who isn't a farmer happy.

Are people there paying even higher prices? Prove it.

I just don't want to pay a subsidy to ethanol that I don't think work just so that farmers have live in the dole.

If Eastern Canada continues to get squeezed by high prices and have to pay taxes to support ethanol, you can be sure they will look to cut that subsidy.

They certainly won't stand for farmers getting subsidies and living high on the hog.

According to the IEA 1 million barrells a day saved. The decreased mileage is debatable at best.

The Americans won't drop their subsidies and the European's won't. We need supports until they get a deal at the WTO.

Article in the Cooperator, Asian countries are looking to drop their oilseed tariffs due to demand. Some tariffs are going.

Argentina is a major exporter of soybeans, the economist writer of the Cooperator says that with them on strike, it is supporting prices especially in oilseeds. Taking an area the size of argentina out of production has an impact on prices.

A million barrells saved a day shows it is working, oil field workers get the royal treatment, and the government won't touch them. A profitable industry is good for the country.

Canadians are also squeezed by high taxes and high clinic rates for healthcare, should I be gouged at the tax table so doctors can live high on the hog? Same goes for University proffessors, I am gouged for a tuition freeze, but they make a fortune and gouge students with tuition costs. There are lots of things that Canadians don't want to pay tax on. You seem to think that only doctors and professors should live high on the hog. Watching doctors and professors make a killing off of poor people doesn't make me happy either.

It's quite simple, in order to have a cheap food supply, it has to be subsidized in order to produce food at lower than production. Urban Canadians seem to want to be thieves, so won't pay the subsidies and let the Europeans pay it, but scream bloody murder when the price rises and they still aren't paying subsidies. I can assure you lots of European's aren't poor and Quebec farmers aren't either and they have prov. gov't support like crazy. It's not just farmers getting richer, agribusiness according to the U of S is the third largest employer in Canada, that is a lot of people getting more pay because grain is worth more.

The subsidy urban canadians are paying for is to get a new industry in Canada up and running and with the trend in energy prices, it is a wise investment and will pay off huge dividends.

I'll pose this question, why do you want cheap food, but don't want to pay the subsidy in order to get it? Why do you want to rip off Canadian farmers when others are subsidized for a failed cheap food policy?

Why do you want to pick and choose which people get ahead and which people don't?

[jdobbin]

According to the IEA 1 million barrells a day saved. The decreased mileage is debatable at best.

I'm afraid it is not debatable. Ethanol has a lower energy density and gets on average 30% less fuel efficiency. We were told that from the very beginning when ethanol was forced on us.

The Americans won't drop their subsidies and the European's won't. We need supports until they get a deal at the WTO.

Citation on the U.S. dropping subsidies? They are still massive because they say they need them against the Europeans.

Article in the Cooperator, Asian countries are looking to drop their oilseed tariffs due to demand. Some tariffs are going.

All the more reason to end subsidies for ethanol.

Argentina is a major exporter of soybeans, the economist writer of the Cooperator says that with them on strike, it is supporting prices especially in oilseeds. Taking an area the size of argentina out of production has an impact on prices.

Will it affect all Argentina food prices? Citation and link, please.

A million barrells saved a day shows it is working, oil field workers get the royal treatment, and the government won't touch them. A profitable industry is good for the country.

Baloney on your figures with poorer mileage results.

Canadians are also squeezed by high taxes and high clinic rates for healthcare, should I be gouged at the tax table so doctors can live high on the hog? Same goes for University proffessors, I am gouged for a tuition freeze, but they make a fortune and gouge students with tuition costs. There are lots of things that Canadians don't want to pay tax on. You seem to think that only doctors and professors should live high on the hog. Watching doctors and professors make a killing off of poor people doesn't make me happy either.

I doubt you'd be happy with the costs of private health anymore than public. Ditto education.

It's quite simple, in order to have a cheap food supply, it has to be subsidized in order to produce food at lower than production. Urban Canadians seem to want to be thieves, so won't pay the subsidies and let the Europeans pay it, but scream bloody murder when the price rises and they still aren't paying subsidies. I can assure you lots of European's aren't poor and Quebec farmers aren't either and they have prov. gov't support like crazy. It's not just farmers getting richer, agribusiness according to the U of S is the third largest employer in Canada, that is a lot of people getting more pay because grain is worth more.

And Canadians are getting hosed on taxes to make farmer rich for dubious carbon savings and terrible fuel consumption.

This is not a farm support program. Time for farmers to get off the dole.

The subsidy urban canadians are paying for is to get a new industry in Canada up and running and with the trend in energy prices, it is a wise investment and will pay off huge dividends.

Yes, higher food costs and worse gas mileage.

I'll pose this question, why do you want cheap food, but don't want to pay the subsidy in order to get it? Why do you want to rip off Canadian farmers when others are subsidized for a failed cheap food policy?

Why do you want to rip the taxpayers of for a program that doesn't reduce carbon and was never meant as a farm support?

Why do you want to pick and choose which people get ahead and which people don't?

Ethanol was not meant as a farm support program. Farmers are laughing all the way to the bank because they are forcing Canadians to subsidize ethanol and gives us no choice in buying it for any working vehicle. They don't care if it really helps the environment or not.

[Alta4ever]

This is not a farm support program. Time for farmers to get off the dole.

If these are your thoughts on had working farmers without which society to fail to function, what are thoughts on the Urbanites on the dole? They do nothing for society, but volcal and vested interests seem to be very concerned about them.

I never thought I'd see the day where selling your product would be consider on the dole. I guess it goes to show you how backwards the left really is in this country.

[jdobbin]

If these are your thoughts on had working farmers without which society to fail to function, what are thoughts on the Urbanites on the dole? They do nothing for society, but volcal and vested interests seem to be very concerned about them.

Farmer have embraced ethanol as a farm support system. They've basically tied their product to the price of energy and forcing consumers to do it. It is subsidies that are hurting farmers, not helping them.

Ethanol was meant as a environmental program. More and more it is looking like it not doing the job it is supposed to but because farmers have embraced it, it will be difficult to get rid of.

I believe anyone capable of working shouldn't be permanently be subsidized. Don't you? Farmers are now permanently getting subsidies and it hurts them because every nation tried to outdo the other.

I never thought I'd see the day where selling your product would be consider on the dole. I guess it goes to show you how backwards the left really is in this country.

If farmers require subsidies to make a product, it hurts them. The right wing should know this better than anyone.

[Alta4ever]

Farmer have embraced ethanol as a farm support system. They've basically tied their product to the price of energy and forcing consumers to do it. It is subsidies that are hurting farmers, not helping them.

Ethanol was meant as a environmental program. More and more it is looking like it not doing the job it is supposed to but because farmers have embraced it, it will be difficult to get rid of.

I believe anyone capable of working shouldn't be permanently be subsidized. Don't you? Farmers are now permanently getting subsidies and it hurts them because every nation tried to outdo the other.

If farmers require subsidies to make a product, it hurts them. The right wing should know this better than anyone.

Ethanol isn't a subsidy

[jdobbin]

Ethanol isn't a subsidy

Ethanol is subsidized and forced upon the consumer. It would not exist in the mainstream without the subsidy. The main beneficiaries are the farmers since they are the main suppliers.