Why We Have to Fight

[ScottSA]

nope, it adds up to 100's of millions.

100's and 100's of millions.

That is factually incorrect.

Possibly) The Twenty (or so) Worst Things People Have Done to Each Other:

Rank Death Toll Cause Centuries

1 55 million Second World War 20C

2 40 million Mao Zedong (mostly famine) 20C

3 40 million Mongol Conquests 13C

4 36 million An Lushan Revolt 8C

5 25 million Fall of the Ming Dynasty 17C

6 20 million Taiping Rebellion 19C

7 20 million Annihilation of the American Indians 15C-19C

8 20 million Iosif Stalin 20C

9 19 million Mideast Slave Trade 7C-19C

[]10 18 million Atlantic Slave Trade 15C-19C

11 17 million Timur Lenk 14C-15C

12 17 million British India (mostly famine) 19C

13 15 million First World War 20C

14 9 million Russian Civil War 20C

15 8 million Fall of Rome 3C-5C

16 8 million Congo Free State 19C-20C

17 7 million Thirty Years War 17C

18 5 million Russia's Time of Troubles 16C-17C

19 4 million Napoleonic Wars 19C

20 3 million Chinese Civil War 20C

21 3 million French Wars of Religion 16C

annhilitation of the Native Indians 20,000,000

There weren't 20 million Indians in North America, so that number isn't on. And most of the deaths were from smallpox. According to any viable history book, Stalin killed 30 million in the Ukraine alone, and God knows how many more million on both sides of the war, so claiming "20 million" is a bit suspect.

[Keepitsimple]

Scriblett - thanks for posting the article - I was going to post it myself but something popped up. It's amazing how posts like these always end up with small-minded arguments that go back and forth. Historically, religions of many stripes have spawned needless bloodshed and horrible deeds in the name of their God. The gist of the article is correct - we are faced today with an extremist fundamentalism that seeks a Global domination through continual acts of brutal, inhumane terror - as is sickenly portrayed in the article. The scale of brutality, the global intentions, and the relentless murder of innocents is what separates this extremism from past atrocities.

[kuzadd]

Among other claims, the suit charges the Vatican and Franciscans with accepting valuables plundered by Croatia's Nazi-backed Ustashe regime and using them to bankroll both the Nazi "Rat Line" to South America and various Western powers' anti-Soviet campaigns.

A class action suit initiated against the Ustashe is proof that Hitler was Christian?

as stated in that very same post

"I don't know what your understanding is, the facts are , he was raised Catholic, he was supported by the vatican, and he extolled religion/ious virtue for the populace.

Also see Vatican 'rat' lines."

I mentioned the Vatican rat lines, as an interesting aside, but, the Catholic institution continued to support the Nazi's, as the nazi's had supported them, a kind of " you scratch my back , I'll scratch yours" analogy.

[kuzadd]

nope, it adds up to 100's of millions.

100's and 100's of millions.

That is factually incorrect.

Possibly) The Twenty (or so) Worst Things People Have Done to Each Other:

Rank Death Toll Cause Centuries

1 55 million Second World War 20C

2 40 million Mao Zedong (mostly famine) 20C

3 40 million Mongol Conquests 13C

4 36 million An Lushan Revolt 8C

5 25 million Fall of the Ming Dynasty 17C

6 20 million Taiping Rebellion 19C

7 20 million Annihilation of the American Indians 15C-19C

8 20 million Iosif Stalin 20C

9 19 million Mideast Slave Trade 7C-19C

[]10 18 million Atlantic Slave Trade 15C-19C

11 17 million Timur Lenk 14C-15C

12 17 million British India (mostly famine) 19C

13 15 million First World War 20C

14 9 million Russian Civil War 20C

15 8 million Fall of Rome 3C-5C

16 8 million Congo Free State 19C-20C

17 7 million Thirty Years War 17C

18 5 million Russia's Time of Troubles 16C-17C

19 4 million Napoleonic Wars 19C

20 3 million Chinese Civil War 20C

21 3 million French Wars of Religion 16C

annhilitation of the Native Indians 20,000,000

There weren't 20 million Indians in North America, so that number isn't on. And most of the deaths were from smallpox. According to any viable history book, Stalin killed 30 million in the Ukraine alone, and God knows how many more million on both sides of the war, so claiming "20 million" is a bit suspect.

Your right, there were'nt 20 million Native Americans in NA, there were even more then that.!!!

[Charles Anthony]

Just as a point of order: you repeated my entire post just to add a tiny response to one of my lines.

Check out these threads:

NEW RULE! - Trim Your Posts, Please take the time to remove the bulk of the post your quoting

Trim Your Posts and Quotes, Don't just hit "Reply"

Using the [ Quote ] Feature:, Avoid using more too many quotes!

And what could be more a symbol of their greed than a belief that they are unique and special in the universe, that god has chosen them personally to talk to, and that god will reward them when they die?

Their actions could be more symbolic than somebody else's symbolic representation of their beliefs.

Greed is always inseparable from a sense of personal entitlement.

So what?

Your defense to go to war is based on symbolism. What could be worse than that?

[Catchme]

The Spanish Inquistion is different from the Medieval Inquistion.

And 100's of thousands died over 100's of years. The Catholic Church and it seems some Protestants today would love to re-write history.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...nquisition.html

The concepts of an inquisition and inquisitorial procedure lie deep in the roots of world history. Inquisitions were used during the decline of the Roman Empire until the Spanish Inquisition's decline in the early 1800s. An inquisition can be run by both civil and church authorities in order to root out non-believers from a nation or religion. The Spanish Inquisition was one of the most deadly inquisitions in history.

http://www.thenagain.info/Webchron/WestEurope/SpanInqui.html

"

In his History of the Inquisition, Canon Llorente, who was the Secretary to the Inquisition in Madrid from 1790-92 and had access to the archives of all the tribunals, estimated that in Spain alone the number of condemned exceeded 3 million, with about 300,000 burned at the stake."

(Dave Hunt, A Woman Rides the Beast, page 79, also 242)

The things we have been surveying are not the mere models of the instruments made use of in the Holy Office; they are the veritable instruments themselves. We see before us the actual implements by which hundreds and thousands of men and women, many of them saints and confessors of the Lord Jesus, were torn, and mangled, and slain....

http://jmgainor.homestead.com/files/PU/Inq/mi.htm

I shall not describe the different modes of torture employed by the Inquisition, as it has been already done by many historians: I shall only say that none of them can be accused of exaggeration.

The History of the Inquisition of Spain, by Juan Antonio Llorente (Second Edition, 1827); p. 65

[ScottSA]

I see plenty of anti zionism coming from arab sources. But i don't see anti-semitism. Im sure it exists in some corners though, as it does in all parts of the western world still to this day.

What can I say to willful ignorance like this? I'm sure it exists in some corners too. Like all across the headlines of every middle eastern newspaper every day.

[Catchme]

The Medieval Inquistion separate and apart from the Spanish Inquistion.

The figure of 68 million appeared in Schmucker’s talk in 1838, in Brownlee’s book of 1836, and also in a book “Plea for the West” by Lyman Beecher (Cincinnati, Truman and Smith, 1835), pp. 130-131:

And let me ask again, whether the Catholic religion, in its union with the state, has proved itself so unambitious, meek, and unaspiring so feeble, and easy to be entreated, as to justify-a proud, contempt of its avowed purpose and systematic movements to secure an ascendancy in this nation? It is accidental that in alliance with despotic governments, it has swayed a sceptre of iron, for ten centuries over nearly one-third of; the population of, the globe, and by a death of violence is estimated to have swept from 'the' earth about sixty-eight millions of its inhabitants, and holds now in darkness and bondage nearly half the civilized world?

The exact quote of Brownlee referenced above is as follows:

In one word, the church of Rome has spent immense treasures and shed, in murder, the blood of sixty eight millions and five hundred thousand of the human race, to establish before the astonished and disgusted world, her fixed determination to annihilate every claim set up by the human family to liberty, and the right of unbounded freedom of conscience.

-- Popery an enemy to civil liberty, 1836, pp. 104-105.

Papal Rome has shed the blood of fifty millions of Christians in Europe!

-- The Roman Catholic Religion viewed in the light of Prophecy and History, New York, Charles K. Moore, 1843, page 60.

And later in the same work,

The best writers enumerate fifty millions of Christians destroyed by fire, and the sword, and the inquisition; and fifteen millions of natives of the American continent and islands; and three millions of Moors in Europe, and one million and a half of Jews. Now, here are sixty-nine millions and five hundred thousands of human beings, murdered by “the woman of the Roman hills, who was drunk with the blood of the saints.” And this horrid list does not include those of her own subjects, who fell in the crusades in Asia, and in her wars against European Christians, and in South America!

-- page 97.

These quotations make it clear that the figure of 50 million refers only to Christians in Europe, and does not include Christians killed elsewhere. It is also clear that Brownlee is taking these figures not from just one person, but from at least two, “the best writers,” and ignoring others that he feels are less qualified. Many others must have been convinced of the reputation of these individuals as well, judging from the frequency with which the figure of 50 million is quoted.

Walter M. Montano, a former Catholic priest, asserts in his book, Behind the Purple Curtain that it has been estimated that fifty million people died for their faith during the twelve hundred years of the Dark Ages. (Citing Walter M. Montano, Behind the Purple Curtain, Cowman Publications, 1950, page 91.)

[ScottSA]

The Medieval Inquistion separate and apart from the Spanish Inquistion.

The figure of 68 million appeared in Schmucker’s talk in 1838, in Brownlee’s book of 1836, and also in a book “Plea for the West” by Lyman Beecher (Cincinnati, Truman and Smith, 1835), pp. 130-131:

And let me ask again, whether the Catholic religion, in its union with the state, has proved itself so unambitious, meek, and unaspiring so feeble, and easy to be entreated, as to justify-a proud, contempt of its avowed purpose and systematic movements to secure an ascendancy in this nation? It is accidental that in alliance with despotic governments, it has swayed a sceptre of iron, for ten centuries over nearly one-third of; the population of, the globe, and by a death of violence is estimated to have swept from 'the' earth about sixty-eight millions of its inhabitants, and holds now in darkness and bondage nearly half the civilized world?

The exact quote of Brownlee referenced above is as follows:

In one word, the church of Rome has spent immense treasures and shed, in murder, the blood of sixty eight millions and five hundred thousand of the human race, to establish before the astonished and disgusted world, her fixed determination to annihilate every claim set up by the human family to liberty, and the right of unbounded freedom of conscience.

-- Popery an enemy to civil liberty, 1836, pp. 104-105.

Papal Rome has shed the blood of fifty millions of Christians in Europe!

-- The Roman Catholic Religion viewed in the light of Prophecy and History, New York, Charles K. Moore, 1843, page 60.

And later in the same work,

The best writers enumerate fifty millions of Christians destroyed by fire, and the sword, and the inquisition; and fifteen millions of natives of the American continent and islands; and three millions of Moors in Europe, and one million and a half of Jews. Now, here are sixty-nine millions and five hundred thousands of human beings, murdered by “the woman of the Roman hills, who was drunk with the blood of the saints.” And this horrid list does not include those of her own subjects, who fell in the crusades in Asia, and in her wars against European Christians, and in South America!

-- page 97.

These quotations make it clear that the figure of 50 million refers only to Christians in Europe, and does not include Christians killed elsewhere. It is also clear that Brownlee is taking these figures not from just one person, but from at least two, “the best writers,” and ignoring others that he feels are less qualified. Many others must have been convinced of the reputation of these individuals as well, judging from the frequency with which the figure of 50 million is quoted.

Walter M. Montano, a former Catholic priest, asserts in his book, Behind the Purple Curtain that it has been estimated that fifty million people died for their faith during the twelve hundred years of the Dark Ages. (Citing Walter M. Montano, Behind the Purple Curtain, Cowman Publications, 1950, page 91.)

What are you doing?

[M.Dancer]

I see plenty of anti zionism coming from arab sources. But i don't see anti-semitism. Im sure it exists in some corners though, as it does in all parts of the western world still to this day.

What can I say to willful ignorance like this? I'm sure it exists in some corners too. Like all across the headlines of every middle eastern newspaper every day.

Yeah I suppose when carachitures of old men withhooked noses drinking the blood of babies....it's not anti semitism........

[Catchme]

The Roman Inquisition separate and apart from the Medieval and Spanish Inquisitions.

around...

70,000 by the contemporary Huguenot Duke de Sully, who himself barely escaped death. Modern writers put the number at 3,000 in Paris alone.

¶ The news of the massacre was welcomed by Philip II of Spain, and Pope Gregory XIII had a medal struck to celebrate the event...Gregory is often criticized for ... his reaction to the Massacre of St. Bartholomew's Day, the slaughter of Huguenots (French Protestants) that began in Paris on Aug. 24, 1572, and spread throughout France. He celebrated the massacre with a Te Deum (hymn of praise to God) at Rome.

Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc., Gregory XIII, Copyright © 1994-2000

... The Pope, says Bonanni, "gave orders for a painting, descriptive of the slaughter of the admiral and his companions, to be made in the hall of the Vatican by Georgio Vasari, as a monument of vindicated religion, and a trophy of exterminated heresy." These representations form three different frescoes....

¶ The better to perpetuate the memory of the massacre, Gregory caused a medal to be struck, the device on which, as Bonanni interprets it, inculcates that the St. Bartholomew was the joint result of the Papal counsel and God's instrumentality. On the one side is a profile of the Pope, surrounded by the words—Gregorius XIII, Pont. Max., an. I. On the obverse is seen an angel bearing in the one hand a cross, in the other a drawn sword, with which he is smiting a prostrate host of Protestants; and to make all clear, above is the motto—Ugonot-toturn strages, 1572.

The History of Protestantism, by James A. Wylie, LL.D., Volume II, Book XVII, Chapter 16

astronomer Giordano Bruno, forerunner of Galileo, to the stake for his 'heretical' Copernican astronomical theories.

Of note apparently during the Inquisition many did not know what they were supposed to retract, or confess, sounds much like today's security certificates and the Patriot Act eh?

Bruno finally declared that he had nothing to retract and that he did not even know what he was expected to retract.

Also, considering what was done by "Christians" to FN's, Africans, and other "heathens" around the world in history, and up to including todays wars, we are looking at well over 100 million and close to 200 million dead, that can be traced through "Christianity's history. Say nothing of those wiped right out and erased from history.

[Canadian Blue]

The Inquisition in some ways was an anti-feminist movement as well. When I used the term Inquisition, I meant the entire span of time that the church attempted to kill of heretics, this can include the killing of the Cathars.

There weren't 20 million Indians in North America, so that number isn't on. And most of the deaths were from smallpox. According to any viable history book, Stalin killed 30 million in the Ukraine alone, and God knows how many more million on both sides of the war, so claiming "20 million" is a bit suspect.

Their were alot more than 20 million Natives in the America's. Many were killed off, ever hear of the Trail of Tears.

Well, the enemy fights by different rules than we do. We can seek to understand why, but that's really not very smart. It's far smarter to kill the enemy before the enemy kills us, and THEN worry about motivations.

Yeah, that makes sense, kill people first. After they are dead find out how we could have prevented it.

Claiming that Hitler came to power as a Christian is just silly revisionism.

Akin to claiming that all muslims are evil kitten eaters intent on smuggling nuclear weapons to destroy us all.

What can I say to willful ignorance like this? I'm sure it exists in some corners too. Like all across the headlines of every middle eastern newspaper every day.

Apparently when Israel was created a large amount of people were displaced. I'm not sure why they would be bitter about that.

Many whites knowingly spread smallpox to the natives.

Either way, I'm pretty sure that I know where ScottSA gets most of his "facts". http://www.wikiality.com/Main_Page

[ScottSA]

[snipe..snipe...snipe]

Either way, I'm pretty sure that I know where ScottSA gets most of his "facts". http://www.wikiality.com/Main_Page

Go away...

[Canadian Blue]

Stop whimpering ScottSA, one can only assume where you get your facts. You say things like "thats not factual", yet can't enlighten anyone with your intellect. Even though it's been shown that you have a fairly ignorant view of history.

Plus the fact you used a hate website to show us why you have a negative opinion of muslim's doesn't help your case much.

As well, if you think that muslim's are going to engage in a massive invasion, why not join up with a mercenary group and pop a cap in a few. Since with your rhetoric it seem's like killing people would be really easy to do, even if they were innocent.

[Catchme]

Oh, and let's increase the number to well over 200 million, and closing in on 300 million, when one considers ALL the pogroms, and the holocaust, that were killed because of "Christian" philosophy.

Remember, this "Christian" philosophy, is pure mythology, perhaps used to cover bigotry, racism and hegmony? At least Mohammed actually existed, unlike Jesus.

Also, nothing by way of Iraq and Afghanistan can be used against Muslims as a threat towards the west. Those countries and peoples were invaded, by the west in the case of Iraq illegally.

"Religion" is but a cover for those who would like to destroy or have power over another peoples and not allow them their freedom of conscience and action, nor equality.

Those who advocate the destruction of Muslims, and/or Iran are being fosterers of another holocaust and nothing more.

[AndrewL]

I see plenty of anti zionism coming from arab sources. But i don't see anti-semitism. Im sure it exists in some corners though, as it does in all parts of the western world still to this day.

What can I say to willful ignorance like this? I'm sure it exists in some corners too. Like all across the headlines of every middle eastern newspaper every day.

Care to provide some examples? Perhaps i am ignorant of this, i just have never seen it. Im familiar with their anti-zionism, just not their anti-semitism (if it exists to any greater degree than it exists in the west).

Andrew

[ScottSA]

I see plenty of anti zionism coming from arab sources. But i don't see anti-semitism. Im sure it exists in some corners though, as it does in all parts of the western world still to this day.

What can I say to willful ignorance like this? I'm sure it exists in some corners too. Like all across the headlines of every middle eastern newspaper every day.

Care to provide some examples?

No. Just google up "middle east" or "arabic newspaper" and you can feast your eyes on it.

[Catchme]

The Inquisition in some ways was an anti-feminist movement as well. When I used the term Inquisition, I meant the entire span of time that the church attempted to kill of heretics, this can include the killing of the Cathars.

http://www.wikiality.com/Main_Page

Women's voices have been silenced historically throughout the ages so autrocities could be committed upon mass amounts of peoples. Divide and conquer.

Cloisters for Nuns started in the medieval ages by Hildegard of Bingen and later furthered by Theresa of Avila. Their writings and works are indeed incredible and their attempt to save women's lives a miracle.

Not just the Cathars but the extermination of Albigenses. Say nothing of the Templars. Non-of which were included in the amounts noted by my quotes, as they were not actually part of any inquisition per se.

The Catholic crusade against the Albigenses in Southern France (from 1209-1229), under Popes Innocent III., Honorius III. and Gregory IX., was one of the bloodiest tragedies in human history. … The number of Albigenses that perished in the twenty years’ war is estimated at from one to two millions.

In only one crusade, two million Albigenses were killed. How many must there have been altogether, and how many millions more must have been killed during the entire Middle Ages!

[ScottSA]

In only one crusade, two million Albigenses were killed. How many must there have been altogether, and how many millions more must have been killed during the entire Middle Ages!

I don't know, but given that the entire population of Europe hovered along at under 30 million for a good many centuries, I don't suspect it was anything like the death tolls of the 20th century. Meanwhile, back on the Islamic ranch...

[AndrewL]

I see plenty of anti zionism coming from arab sources. But i don't see anti-semitism. Im sure it exists in some corners though, as it does in all parts of the western world still to this day.

What can I say to willful ignorance like this? I'm sure it exists in some corners too. Like all across the headlines of every middle eastern newspaper every day.

Care to provide some examples?

No. Just google up "middle east" or "arabic newspaper" and you can feast your eyes on it.

Nice cop-out.

Just for fun i brought up Al Jazeera's front page. That is the most influential Arabic newspaper in the region. I don't see anything even remotely anti-semitic.

Surely if you are going to make such sweeping accusations you could at least try and back them up?

Andrew

[ScottSA]

Fine, I'll do your work for you. I'm sure this is just part of a big Jewish Zionist plot, but here's one:

http://www.memri.org/antisemitism.html

Here's another. Just ignore the fact that these are jewish links, and go check out the links they supply

http://www.adl.org/main_Arab_World/default.htm

Here's a good one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs_and_antisemitism

Oh my gosh...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3759446.stm

Well, those are the first four of some 478,000 links google has for "anti-semitism arabic newspapers", but I'm sorry to hear you couldn't find anything...

[scribblet]

Its kind of funny how people in their haste to vilify Christianity are willing to overlook the excesses and barbaric acts Michael Coren talks about. They are all too willing to trot out the Crusades overlooking the fact that is was Islamic expansionism and aggression which started the whole thing.

If you read your history back to Mohammad it shows that the birth of Islam was first and foremost an ideology linked to gaining world domination - still the ultimate goal of radical Islam to this day. And it is today we are talking about, how children are used as human bomb to spread hate and to kill other Muslims is one method.

Christianity and other religions don't hold a candle to what is being perpetrated in the name of radical Islam today.

OBL has allready warned us that Islam will use our own laws and freedoms to destroy us, those who don't believe him just give him and his ilk more impetus to carry on.

[AndrewL]

Fine, I'll do your work for you. I'm sure this is just part of a big Jewish Zionist plot, but here's one:

http://www.memri.org/antisemitism.html

Here's another. Just ignore the fact that these are jewish links, and go check out the links they supply

http://www.adl.org/main_Arab_World/default.htm

Here's a good one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs_and_antisemitism

Oh my gosh...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3759446.stm

Well, those are the first four of some 478,000 links google has for "anti-semitism arabic newspapers", but I'm sorry to hear you couldn't find anything...

You know what i found in all those links (and no i did not read every story, as i doubt you have)? I found a few blatant anti-semitic peices of propaganda, i agree. I found many, many more examples of harsh criticism of jewish policies confused and spun as anti-semitism. Thansk for the ADL link, they are the folks that cry anti-semite loudly if someone says something remotely negative about jews or israel.

One thing ifound interesting on the Wikipedia link:

"Antisemitism in the Arab world increased in the twentieth century, as anti-Semitic propaganda and blood libels were imported from Europe..."

Which is what my original point was, that Anti-semitism is a christian invention, founded in Europe.

But thanks for doing the research. I do see that there are a few examples of anti-semitism in the arab media. What shoudl we do about it? Kill their children with cluster bobmbs? Will that make you feel better?

Andrew

[AndrewL]

Its kind of funny how people in their haste to vilify Christianity are willing to overlook the excesses and barbaric acts Michael Coren talks about. They are all too willing to trot out the Crusades overlooking the fact that is was Islamic expansionism and aggression which started the whole thing.

If you read your history back to Mohammad it shows that the birth of Islam was first and foremost an ideology linked to gaining world domination - still the ultimate goal of radical Islam to this day. And it is today we are talking about, how children are used as human bomb to spread hate and to kill other Muslims is one method.

Christianity and other religions don't hold a candle to what is being perpetrated in the name of radical Islam today.

OBL has allready warned us that Islam will use our own laws and freedoms to destroy us, those who don't believe him just give him and his ilk more impetus to carry on.

Christianity might not be as barbaric as islam today, i agree. But there is simply no way to combat the ideology of Islam without attacking all religious belief. Islam might manifest itself in the modern day with extreme violence, but it is still irrational belief in the literal truth of the book that allows them to commit such acts of depravity.

How do you propose we go about changing islam from the west? Do you think we should just kill them?

Andrew

[PolyNewbie]

ScottsA: Jewish Zionist

You would have to be real stupid to confuse Zionism with Judaism.