Why We Have to Fight

[ScottSA]

ScottsA: Jewish Zionist

You would have to be real stupid to confuse Zionism with Judaism.

Right, thanks. I'll try to keep that in mind.

[ScottSA]

I found a few blatant anti-semitic peices of propaganda, i agree. Andrew

Ok, now that we've established that, please go on to find some contemporary mainstream newspapers in the west that engage that kind of anti-semitism. I'm not asking for a lot here. Just one or two mainstream newspapers that have blatant anti-semitism in them of the sort you're an apologist for in the Arab media. This time I won't be able to help you out I'm afraid, because I don't think there's been a lot of that since around 1945.

[M.Dancer]

Just for fun i brought up Al Jazeera's front page. That is the most influential Arabic newspaper in the region. I don't see anything even remotely anti-semitic.

Surely if you are going to make such sweeping accusations you could at least try and back them up?

Andrew

Al Jaz ain't a newspaper .....not withsatnding, they sometimes carry the editorial cartoons from newspapers of the region....the one that have the stereotyped jew doing something....robbing the poor, eating babies and such.

Considering that staples of anti semitism like the protocols and blood liable are accepted truths in places like syria and iran, this is like arguing whether the world is flat.

[scribblet]

Christianity might not be as barbaric as islam today, i agree. But there is simply no way to combat the ideology of Islam without attacking all religious belief. Islam might manifest itself in the modern day with extreme violence, but it is still irrational belief in the literal truth of the book that allows them to commit such acts of depravity.

How do you propose we go about changing islam from the west? Do you think we should just kill them?

Andrew

Christianity and other religions don't light a candle to radical Islam with regards to barbarity of the radicals, but as I said, some people can't wait to deflect from that, and paint other religions as worse - when in fact there are none.

I don't know what you mean - from the west and I've never even hinted that we should kill them .

I don't propose that we change Islam in Islamic countries we can't; we can try to educate people and help bring some form of democracy to them if possible. What we can do is try ensure that Sharia law doesn't get a foothold here, something that is being tried for in parts of Europe, not to mention the first attempts in Ontario.

We should also somehow help the moderates to regain what has been hijacked by the radicals.

[AndrewL]

I found a few blatant anti-semitic peices of propaganda, i agree. Andrew

Ok, now that we've established that, please go on to find some contemporary mainstream newspapers in the west that engage that kind of anti-semitism. I'm not asking for a lot here. Just one or two mainstream newspapers that have blatant anti-semitism in them of the sort you're an apologist for in the Arab media. This time I won't be able to help you out I'm afraid, because I don't think there's been a lot of that since around 1945.

Where did i claim that the mainstream press engage in anti-semitic racism? (they do engage in other forms of racism though). I said there is anti-semitism in the west, which there is.

Also i don't quite agree that arab mainstream press is engaged in anti-semitism. I noted only that there were a couple examples, of which Hezbollah's propaganda seemed to be the culprit. Are they mainstream?

I would consider al-jazeera mainstream, and i did not see any anti-semitism in their publication.

In fact, the vast majority of your sourced examples were not anti-semitic at all, they were not even anti-zionist, they were simply critical of Israeli policy, which is itself at times overtly racist.

Also, your snipping of the content of my post was very dishonest.

Andrew

[AndrewL]

Al Jaz ain't a newspaper .....not withsatnding, they sometimes carry the editorial cartoons from newspapers of the region....the one that have the stereotyped jew doing something....robbing the poor, eating babies and such.

Considering that staples of anti semitism like the protocols and blood liable are accepted truths in places like syria and iran, this is like arguing whether the world is flat.

Racism is global in nature, not exclusive to arabs.

Andrew

[scribblet]

ScottSA, did you notice how the vast majority were in Iraq?

Please, don't use a hate site again to back up your argument.

Why is it a 'hate' site, is what they are saying not true? If so, then they could be charged with slander maybe.

[AndrewL]

Christianity and other religions don't light a candle to radical Islam with regards to barbarity of the radicals, but as I said, some people can't wait to deflect from that, and paint other religions as worse - when in fact there are none.

I don't know what you mean - from the west and I've never even hinted that we should kill them.

Thats not my point, although Christians everywhere are guilty of very horrendous acts. Andrea Yates murdered all her children because God told her to, after all. (yes, she was insane, and i would argue no less so than the fanatical muslim, its just less frequent among christians for various reasons. Im saying that if we are going to attack islam we can't avoid but attack all religious belief on the same ground, i.e., the irrationality of a literal belief in the certainty of ones fate in the 'afterlife'.

I don't propose that we change Islam in Islamic countries we can't; we can try to educate people and help bring some form of democracy to them if possible. What we can do is try ensure that Sharia law doesn't get a foothold here, something that is being tried for in parts of Europe, not to mention the first attempts in Ontario.

Absolutely. I will fight just as hard against seeing any religiously motivated law from being promoted here. But if muslims of the fanatical ilk want to kill us, and they might one day get their hands on the weapons to do so, why shouldn't we try to change islam in islamic nation? Doesn't our survival depend on it?

We should also somehow help the moderates to regain what has been hijacked by the radicals.

Yes. And i think it is necessary to marginalize our own christian and jewish radical in the process. I can't accept the extreme brand of christianity brewing amongst us, just as much as i cannot accept islam promoting their religion amongst us.

Andrew

[M.Dancer]

Al Jaz ain't a newspaper .....not withsatnding, they sometimes carry the editorial cartoons from newspapers of the region....the one that have the stereotyped jew doing something....robbing the poor, eating babies and such.

Considering that staples of anti semitism like the protocols and blood liable are accepted truths in places like syria and iran, this is like arguing whether the world is flat.

Racism is global in nature, not exclusive to arabs.

Andrew

I believe you were saying that there western anti semitism in the Arab world....that being said, how many western papers routinely publish hate literature as a matter of course?

[Canadian Blue]

QUOTE(Canadian Blue @ Mar 26 2007, 11:08 AM)

ScottSA, did you notice how the vast majority were in Iraq?

Please, don't use a hate site again to back up your argument.

Why is it a 'hate' site, is what they are saying not true? If so, then they could be charged with slander maybe.

Because it generalizes the entire muslim population as terrorists. It's similar to Stormfront.

[scribblet]

Yes. And i think it is necessary to marginalize our own christian and jewish radical in the process. I can't accept the extreme brand of christianity brewing amongst us, just as much as i cannot accept islam promoting their religion amongst us.

Andrew

I don't see either of those groups being as radical as the Islamists, we may have one or two or want to kill abortionists, all religions have their crackpots I suppose, but none to my knowledge are beheading people, stoning women to death or even suggesting that they might want to bomb a subway or fly planes into building and kill a few thousand people at a go, and certainly none of them are using kids as human bombs or decoys. Neither do I see them planting bombs in places of worship that belonged to their own faith There is no equivalence.

All groups are entitled to a voice in our democracy, we have no right to insist that only secularists be allowed a voice. I really don't know what 'extreme brand of Christianity' is brewing among us, but whatever it is, it doesn't hold the same connotations as Sharia Law.

[blueblood]

Yes. And i think it is necessary to marginalize our own christian and jewish radical in the process. I can't accept the extreme brand of christianity brewing amongst us, just as much as i cannot accept islam promoting their religion amongst us.

Andrew

I don't see either of those groups being as radical as the Islamists, we may have one or two or want to kill abortionists, all religions have their crackpots I suppose, but none to my knowledge are beheading people, stoning women to death or even suggesting that they might want to bomb a subway or fly planes into building and kill a few thousand people at a go, and certainly none of them are using kids as human bombs or decoys. Neither do I see them planting bombs in places of worship that belonged to their own faith There is no equivalence.

All groups are entitled to a voice in our democracy, we have no right to insist that only secularists be allowed a voice. I really don't know what 'extreme brand of Christianity' is brewing among us, but whatever it is, it doesn't hold the same connotations as Sharia Law.

Ever hear of Franklin and Billy Graham???

[Canadian Blue]

I don't think we have to worry about Billy Graham. I'd be more concerned about Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.

[ScottSA]

QUOTE(Canadian Blue @ Mar 26 2007, 11:08 AM)

ScottSA, did you notice how the vast majority were in Iraq?

Please, don't use a hate site again to back up your argument.

Why is it a 'hate' site, is what they are saying not true? If so, then they could be charged with slander maybe.

Because it generalizes the entire muslim population as terrorists. It's similar to Stormfront.

You're similar to Quasimodo in intellect. What an idiotic thing to say. Stormfront is an anti-Semitic chatroom full of skinheads. This is a site which is devoted to cataloguing Islamic atrocities. Where exactly do you see the similarity? Actually, your anti-Christian diatrabes are far closer to Stormfront than ROP is. And like you were asked...do you think the numbers are incorrect?

[Canadian Blue]

First of all, most of the numbers came from Iraq, which is a clusterf$#k due to American incompetence.

You're similar to Quasimodo in intellect. What an idiotic thing to say.

Isn't that your response to everything you disagree with. Find a new insult bud.

This is a site which is devoted to cataloguing Islamic atrocities. Where exactly do you see the similarity?

I'd have to say it's mocking the entire religion, and insinuating that all muslim's are evil genocidal maniacs. I see the similarity simply because I view muslim's as my fellow human beings. As for your site, I've heard the exact same tripe against Jews. It's hateful.

Actually, your anti-Christian diatrabes are far closer to Stormfront than ROP is. And like you were asked...do you think the numbers are incorrect?

Well, I was born and raised in an evangelical home, but I'm closer to the United Church nowadays. I simply recognize historical facts surrounding Christianity. To insinuate that one religion is more evil than another is a simple response which doesn't recognize the complexity of religion. I recognize that Christian's committed atrocities, all one has to do is pick up any book on the middle ages, or for the matter early American history.

As well many people have recognized Jesus's teaching's to be non-violent in nature, ever hear of the Sermon on the Mount. If anyone on here should dislike Jesus Christ [the teachings] it should be you.

[Canadian Blue]

ScottSA, if you'd like I'll give a link to an anti-Christian website which show's all of the atrocities committed by Christian's. I decided not to give a link simple because I think it would be ignorant towards those who have moderate religious views.

[ScottSA]

As well many people have recognized Jesus's teaching's to be non-violent in nature, ever hear of the Sermon on the Mount. If anyone on here should dislike Jesus Christ [the teachings] it should be you.

Ahhh..there we have it from your mouth. I agree, Christianity, regardless of how it has been used, is at its root non-violent. But Mohammed's teachings are not non-violent. His life was not non-violent. His actions were violent. He personally killed people. Allah told him, verbatim, to kill people. The Koran is chock full of advice on who to kill and how, which women to kill and how, and which unbelievers to kill and how. There is nothing remotely peaceful about Islam.

[Canadian Blue]

Can you cite the verses in the Koran?

From what I've read about Mohammed when he did fight it was in order to defend his people.

As well isn't it odd to argue for Christianity, yet at the same time ignore the teachings of Jesus, which is unfortunately what most Christian's often do.[forget about what Jesus actually taught] Historically people have changed texts in the bible in order to fight any social change within Christianity. As well some verses in the Old Testament appear to support the use of violence.

[AndrewL]

I agree, Christianity, regardless of how it has been used, is at its root non-violent.

The bible is a very violent book though. Even the ten commandments themselves contain a promotion of violence, as God swears vengeance and punishment on the children of those that don't believe in him, and their childrens's children as well, for a thousand generations.

But Mohammed's teachings are not non-violent. His life was not non-violent. His actions were violent. He personally killed people. Allah told him, verbatim, to kill people. The Koran is chock full of advice on who to kill and how, which women to kill and how, and which unbelievers to kill and how. There is nothing remotely peaceful about Islam.

Mohammed came much later and actual details of his life exist. Christ may have been a totally violent person, if he even existed. There is not record of his life beyond the Gospels, which come much later after Jesus supposedly lived.

How do you know he even existed, let alone didn't beat his wife? Didnt ever kill a man? Even Ghandi used to go home a pummel his wife...

Andrew

[Canadian Blue]

Andrew this is based on the New Testament teachings of the Gospels. The problem is we still don't have the original copies of the gospels, and as history has shown it is believed that some of the texts may have either inadvertantly changed, or changed to conform to one view of thinking. I prefer to look at what many of the early Christian's believed, however even then we'll find alot of debate on whether they believed in immaculate conception, the ressurection, etc.

[AndrewL]

Yes. And i think it is necessary to marginalize our own christian and jewish radical in the process. I can't accept the extreme brand of christianity brewing amongst us, just as much as i cannot accept islam promoting their religion amongst us.

Andrew

I don't see either of those groups being as radical as the Islamists, we may have one or two or want to kill abortionists, all religions have their crackpots I suppose, but none to my knowledge are beheading people, stoning women to death or even suggesting that they might want to bomb a subway or fly planes into building and kill a few thousand people at a go, and certainly none of them are using kids as human bombs or decoys. Neither do I see them planting bombs in places of worship that belonged to their own faith There is no equivalence.

We only have George Bush publicly admitting he talked to God before he went off and murdered thousands of innocent people in Iraq, based on little more than lies and manipulations. If you dont consider that an extreme form of both religion and capitalism, at a systematic and fundamental level, at the same time, im not sure what extremism is. What is a christian president who bombs people from a distance like a coward, throwing all their body parts is every which direction imaginable, justifying it to himself in terms of his religious beliefs, if not a religious fanatic?

All groups are entitled to a voice in our democracy, we have no right to insist that only secularists be allowed a voice. I really don't know what 'extreme brand of Christianity' is brewing among us, but whatever it is, it doesn't hold the same connotations as Sharia Law.

Given the power and influence that rapture obsessed evangelical Christians possess and their growing numbers, with their published and public desire to see the end of the world, id say they most likely present an equal or greater danger to human progress and perhaps even existence.

Andrew

[AndrewL]

Andrew this is based on the New Testament teachings of the Gospels.

The roots of christianity.

The problem is we still don't have the original copies of the gospels, and as history has shown it is believed that some of the texts may have either inadvertantly changed, or changed to conform to one view of thinking. I prefer to look at what many of the early Christian's believed, however even then we'll find alot of debate on whether they believed in immaculate conception, the ressurection, etc.

I suppose all religions have ways in which they interpret their own history. Even moderate adherents of islam search for ways in which to lighten up their own obviously violent origins.

Andrew

[AndrewL]

I believe you were saying that there western anti semitism in the Arab world....that being said, how many western papers routinely publish hate literature as a matter of course?

Depends what you consider hate.

I personally consider the acceptance of terms like collateral damage to refer to civilian casualties in Lebanon, Iraq, or Afghanistan as a form of hate in our daily newspapers. That might sound like im stretching the definition a bit, but i believe it is just as harmful, if not more so, to those effected.

Sure in Canadian mainstream media one cant be overtly racist, but when i hear the press talk about collateral damage, as if such a thing would be accepted in one of our own cities or towns, to be a very sinister form of racism, mainly because it is not recognized for what it truly is.

Andrew

[Wilber]

I see little point in debating which religion has the most violent history. There is enough guilt to go around.

Today, the overwhelming amount of violence being committed in the name of religion is being carried out by those who would call themselves Muslim. That is what we are dealing with.

[bush_cheney2004]

....We only have George Bush publicly admitting he talked to God before he went off and murdered thousands of innocent people in Iraq, based on little more than lies and manipulations. If you dont consider that an extreme form of both religion and capitalism, at a systematic and fundamental level, at the same time, im not sure what extremism is. What is a christian president who bombs people from a distance like a coward, throwing all their body parts is every which direction imaginable, justifying it to himself in terms of his religious beliefs, if not a religious fanatic?

I could also call him President Clinton, Prime Minister Chretien, Blair, Chirac, or Schroeder (NATO's Allied Force, aka Bombs for Muslims 1999).