British Navy Sailors

[bush_cheney2004]

Yeah...that map semed to be a few days in coming. What it doesn't show is that due to massive mud flats and sand bars, ship traffic must go certain ways depending on tonnage. To add to the fun, the Persian Gulf's odd tides change these channels on a regular basis...especially at the northern end.

http://www.vims.edu/physical/research/TCTu...ideanalysis.htm

Agreed...it is damn tricky and a hazard to safe navigation. HMS Cornwall draws about 7 meters. Dredging operations are not what we expect in western channels or sea lanes. Hell, there are still a few old mines in this area!

Operations Orders are often written from incident experience such as this. Boarding procedures will no doubt be reviewed and preventive measures taken to reduce recurrence. I fear that Cornwall's C.O. faces some hard questions regardless of the outcome. His surface plot should have managed and communicated the position of all craft, particularly any patrols from the Iranian side, and the Lynx was an extra sensor/perimeter platform.

[Figleaf]

...launch an all out offensice against the people and government of Iran.

Kill the women! Kill the children! Kill! Kill! Kill! YAAAAY GENOCIDE!

[Figleaf]

Figleaf has been proven once again to be the only one on these posts who understands what is really going on in this world.

Well Rue, I've decide to report you for stalking and trolling.

Do you report yourself everytime you post one of your assine polls?

You really should.....

Fortunately, your private tastes are not the measure.

Personally I think my polls are brilliant and insightful. Maybe you just don't understand them.

[Army Guy]

Something still stinks here, even with the frig a few klicks away, i'm sure it's combat center had a clear picture of all surface contacts, including those Iranian gunboats, and were plotting thier courses. And knew ahead of time they were headed towards thier boarding party...

Knowing all that where they lacks in thier security measures, "thinking the Iranians don't have the nuts to carry outthis" although i was not there... as a skipper i would have atleast notified the boarding party of possiable threats in the area, and would have had the Lynx check out the contacts...atleast have the helo inform the iranians that they were now in Iraqis waters...and when they got to close to the boarding party inform the gunboats of the operation underway"boarding party" and warn them to keep thier distance...

ROE's have been mentioned here, And i bet a weeks pay that at the very minimum it includes the right to self defense...Siezing a rib full of sailors would definatly fall into that catagory...

So yes the skipper is going to have to answer some tough questions, why did he not have the Lynx move into an aggresive posture until boarding party could withdraw ? and yes that would include a warning shot if the situation escalated... that could have also included the use of the frigs wpns systems...I'm glad i'm not in his shoes...

[M.Dancer]

Figleaf has been proven once again to be the only one on these posts who understands what is really going on in this world.

Well Rue, I've decide to report you for stalking and trolling.

Do you report yourself everytime you post one of your assine polls?

You really should.....

Fortunately, your private tastes are not the measure.

Personally I think my polls are brilliant and insightful. Maybe you just don't understand them.

You are right, I don't have a taste for bait, chum

[Argus]

Imperial/IMF Forces charged with spying

I wonder if many posters think this would actually be ethical- the detainies being imperial / IMF forces.

Rue:As for Figleaf, I am sure he and Polynewbie are going to fly to Tehran to offer their advise and services in defeating the US and Britain and the evil world conspiracy these two Zionist lackee nations are fermenting

You would need to increase your IQ by 50 points to figure out what I would do.

I would think a degree in abnormal psychology would be of more aid there.

[M.Dancer]

We need to pummel those assholes.

Isn't that what the Leonides said to his Spartans?

[Argus]

Why have Iran and Syria's incursions into Iraq gone on without putting them on notice?

Because civilized nations don't immediately pounce on, attack and arrest the military or police forces of a neighbour when they stray across the imaginary border in the middle of an ocean or lake. They simply point out the error, and send them on their way.

The Iranians, of course, are not a civilized nation.

[Argus]

I'm sure I've seen this movie before...

Of course. It's all a conspiracy of the evil capitalist west! Oh if only the glorious freedom loving government of Iran would rescue you and your comrades from the misery of living among these evil capitalist dissemblers and decievers!

[Argus]

"Iva-gone-mad" (or however the Iranian leader's name is pronounced) should be given a choice of either returning the sailors with an apology, of facing arrest and prosecution (at The Hague, preferably). I think 'piracy on the high seas' still is a hanging offence most everywhere.

You seem to be assuming that the British are correct that they were in Iraqi waters. What information do you have in support of that assumption?

One can only use logic in such a situation. The Brits would be unlikely to provoke an incident of this sort. If they did want to provoke an incident I suspect there are lots of better ways - ways which did not leave a their sailors in the hands of the Iranians. The Brits are also a civilized nation, while the Iranians are a collection of savages and religious wackos, none of whom can be counted on to act in anything remotely approaching a civilized or honourable manner.

[DogOnPorch]

Because civilized nations don't immediately pounce on, attack and arrest the military or police forces of a neighbour when they stray across the imaginary border in the middle of an ocean or lake. They simply point out the error, and send them on their way.

Now imagine if Geroge Bush & crew snatched a few Iranians from a ship in their waters...took them to Washington DC then made the "POWs" wear trappings of the Christian culture on TV...or worse, I imagine....the Jewish culture. There'd be riots across the world of Islam...at least that's my bold prediction...lol.

Meanwhile...it is apparently some Iranian law that has Royal Navy sailor Faye Turney dressed in civilian clothes w/ Islamic headscarf.

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Having the critics praise you is like having the hangman say you've got a pretty neck.

---Eli Wallach

[Argus]

Figleaf the Fallacy in argument you are displaying here is called appeal to ignorance. And its irrelevant to kidnapping soldiers. And BTW kidnapping soldiers is an act of war.

Ah, don't be so silly.

If the sailors were in Iranian territorial waters, Iran was perfectly within it's rights to take them into custody.

From the story it is apparent that the Iranians planned this. The two british boats were surrounded by a half dozen armed Iranian boats - which never gather in such numbers, and spirited across to Iran.

Let me enlighten you regarding the way a civilized nation conducts its affairs. If an Iranian boat strayed into Iraqi waters, it would be intercepted, informed it was in Iraqi waters, and told to leave. This has happened any number of times. This is how civilized nations act. Ie, when Soviet bombers strayed into North American air space they were escorted out. When Western airliners strayed into soviet air space they were shot down.

That's not kidnappping, it's self-defense. I sure as hell hope Canada would take Iranian sailors into custody if they were boarding civilian ships off Halifax harbor.

There has been no suggestion from Iran that the Iraqi boat the sailors boared was in Iranian waters. You are simply manufacturing something worse in an attempt to excuse Iran's behaviour because, as evil as Iran is, you vastly prefer them to any western government.

You're such a centrist, right?

[Argus]

Iran has every right to be suspicious. THEY DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO KIDNAP SAILORS!!!!

ANY state finding foreign military personel operating within its territory would take them into custody.

Utter drivel

[Argus]

However, and it's a big however, when one takes prisoners in disputed waters, and then threatens to try them for espionage, that is way way up the escalation ladder. There are a whack of ways to end an intrusion; the most common being to shoo the perceived intruder away and resolve the incident later. This is direct confrontation by Iran.

If these indeed are disputed waters between Iraq and Iran, what business do the British have to take sides in that dispute by implicity endorsing the Iraqi position by treating the waters as Iraqi?

You seem to forget, deliberately, I suspect, that they were operating under the auspices of the UN.

[Argus]

But look, this is a very simple fact -- states have the right to enforce their sovereignty in their own territorial waters. That includes taking foreign military personel into custody when they are engaging civilian shipping.

Uh yes, a time honoured method. But when you resort to this method the other side can do the same. How long would Iran's "navy" last if the British decided to resort to what you evidently consider a perfectly acceptable use of "Might makes right"?

Of course, if the UK did resort to this method you and the other far lefties would be screaming and sobbing and gnashing your teeth and pulling out your hair and decrying the evil warmongering western imperalist capitalists etc. etc.

[Argus]

It's hard to believe, given today's GPS technology and satelite surveillance that it can't be determined and demonstrated exactly were the sailors were.

If they were really in Iraqi water as Britain claims, don't you think the Brits would have fired on them when approached?

The whole thing stinks like a provocation.

The British were in a couple of inflatables. The Iranians were in a half dozen heavily armed gun boats.

You might have been dumb enough to open fire on the Iranians but the British clearly had more sense.

[Argus]

Something still stinks here, even with the frig a few klicks away, i'm sure it's combat center had a clear picture of all surface contacts, including those Iranian gunboats, and were plotting thier courses. And knew ahead of time they were headed towards thier boarding party...

How? You seem to be under the illusion this was a wide, empty, pristine lake. It was not. It was a crowded, busy waterway. What are the normal conditions? Probably freighters, transports, tons of fishing and other small craft everywhere. How long does it take to get from shore to the Iranian "border" in a fast gunboat? Minutes probably.

As for precautions, I agree they were lacking. I would escort such rubber boat patrols with something like Apaches, not a Lynx. But even then, imagine how long they would need to get permission to actually open fire on Iranian Revolutionary Guard vessels unless the latter were actually shooting at them.

[M.Dancer]

I believe the Iranians use boghammers for their coastal patrols. Very fast and heavily armed for their size.

[Argus]

Its my understanding after seeing an interview with the Admiral of the british navy, that the HMS Cornwall, which was the mother ship of the taken British soldiers operates on a GPS system called Xeres. According to the British government, the GPS trackers at the time of the incident put them in Iraqi waters. I guess at this point it is all about who you believe. Iran or Britian

It's always about that. But the far left, people like Figleaf and Polynewbie, will accept at face value, whatever Iranians say, while instantly dismissing whatever a western capitalist nation says as some kind of evil conspiracy drawn up by the military industrial complex, or whatever.

[geoffrey]

As for precautions, I agree they were lacking. I would escort such rubber boat patrols with something like Apaches, not a Lynx. But even then, imagine how long they would need to get permission to actually open fire on Iranian Revolutionary Guard vessels unless the latter were actually shooting at them.

A kidnapping is an act of war. They could have fired back. But we know better, that's far too dangerous to do.

Iran will get what's coming to them in time if they don't smarten up and at least give consular access to the British sailors.

[scribblet]

It's always about that. But the far left, people like Figleaf and Polynewbie, will accept at face value, whatever Iranians say, while instantly dismissing whatever a western capitalist nation says as some kind of evil conspiracy drawn up by the military industrial complex, or whatever.

It also gives more credence to the allegations that the left is often nothing more than apologists for terrorists.

here the http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6506361.stm says Iran's insistence the group was in its waters last Friday saw the UK release GPS evidence to back up its denials.

Naturally Iran says they have an 'incorrect attitude' and now won't release the woman, unless of course the UK admits to being in their waters. Hopefully the U.N. won't wait too long to release its statement calling for the release of the crew. IMO Iran has miscalculated the global reactions and now cannot save face -backed into a corner they could become more of a world threat.

[DogOnPorch]

Hardliners in Iran are calling for things like trials or just plain executions. That'll fix things...

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The worst crime is faking it

---Kurt Cobain

[ScottSA]

Hardliners in Iran are calling for things like trials or just plain executions. That'll fix things...

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The worst crime is faking it

---Kurt Cobain

That will trigger an escalation even Iran probably doesn't want. Mind you, the 12th Imam is waiting in the wings, so who knows?

[scribblet]

Oh Yea, now lets see which is the civilized culture... if Iranian leaders are smart, they'll release them now before the riots start. If those sailors are harmed this could be the beginning of a larger war. Let us hope calmer Iranian heads prevail.

here's the BBC link about GPS data http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6501555.stm

Satellite data proves 15 navy personnel being held in Iran were 1.7 nautical miles inside Iraqi waters when they were seized, UK defence officials s

[M.Dancer]

Remember, they held a whack of diplomats (who are supposed to have immunity) for 444 days. The chances of Iran giving up the opportunity to be one of the top stories on the news every night for the next umpteen months, be seen as standing up to the great and little Satan through out the anti western world, is remote.