British Navy Sailors

Canadian Blue · March 31, 2007

Not true at all....there are many "patriots" who oppose or support war, for many different reasons. However, those who oppose war yet benefit from the same society that wages war have some other issues to deal with. Leaving forever is one solution, but most just stay and live with the cognitive dissonance.

No, all people who oppose war at every turn are enemies of society. One only has to look at ScottSA's posts.

Some wars have no benefit, one only has to look at Vietnam. While some wars are just, many have been proven to be nothing more than a waste of lives.

bush_cheney2004 · March 31, 2007

No, all people who oppose war at every turn are enemies of society. One only has to look at ScottSA's posts.
Some wars have no benefit, one only has to look at Vietnam. While some wars are just, many have been proven to be nothing more than a waste of lives.

Logical fallacy....the issue was "patriot". Citizens and Japanese aliens interned in Canada and USA during WW2 may or may not have opposed war, but all were considered/treated as potential "enemies of society".

Just war (e.g. St. Augustine theory) is necessary rationalization for failed pacifists.

Wilber · March 31, 2007

Japanese aliens interned in Canada and USA during WW2 may or may not have opposed war, but all were considered/treated as potential "enemies of society".

The large number of those Japanese "aliens" were citizens. Many of the younger ones were born here. The same wasn't done to Germans and Italians, it was based on race, not nationality. Hopefully we are beyond that.

Canadian Blue · March 31, 2007

Wilber, it looks like we aren't beyond that.

bush_cheney2004 · March 31, 2007

Japanese aliens interned in Canada and USA during WW2 may or may not have opposed war, but all were considered/treated as potential "enemies of society".

The large number of those Japanese "aliens" were citizens. Many of the younger ones were born here. The same wasn't done to Germans and Italians, it was based on race, not nationality. Hopefully we are beyond that.

My original post included "Citizens"....it was not based on race, but nationality with racial overtones. Koreans and Chinese were not interned...census records aided in the roundup and internments.

DogOnPorch · March 31, 2007

During the war before joining the Canadian airforce, my father had rocks thrown at him daily due to his German heritage.

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We have two evils to fight, capitalism and racism. We must destroy both racism and capitalism.

---Huey Newton

Canadian Blue · March 31, 2007

Their is absolutely nothing wrong with interning a whole group of people simply because of the irrational fears of the majority. Why can't the left accept that.

Figleaf · March 31, 2007

We need to pummel those assholes.

Isn't that what the Leonides said to his Spartans?

Stop that -- you'll hurt Scott's feelings.

Figleaf · March 31, 2007

From the story it is apparent that the Iranians planned this. The two british boats were surrounded by a half dozen armed Iranian boats - which never gather in such numbers, and spirited across to Iran.

WTF do you know about Iranian naval procedures?

Let me enlighten you regarding the way a civilized nation conducts its affairs.

I doubt you're capable of enlightening anyone about anything.

There has been no suggestion from Iran that the Iraqi boat the sailors boared was in Iranian waters.

That is the obvious and necessary implication of capturing the sailors in Iranian waters at the end of the boarding operation.

You're such a centrist, right?

I'm to the left of you and to the right of Jack Layton.

Figleaf · March 31, 2007

You seem to forget, deliberately, I suspect, that they were operating under the auspices of the UN.

"SEEM"? Seem how?

I don't forget it. The UN auspices don't provide for any violation of Iranian waters. Ergo, IF they were in Iranian waters, the UN mandate doesn't help them at all.

Figleaf · March 31, 2007

But look, this is a very simple fact -- states have the right to enforce their sovereignty in their own territorial waters. That includes taking foreign military personel into custody when they are engaging civilian shipping.

Uh yes, a time honoured method. But when you resort to this method the other side can do the same. How long would Iran's "navy" last if the British decided to resort to what you evidently consider a perfectly acceptable use of "Might makes right"?

You always spew such complete tripe. It's not might makes right. The right arises in regard to the sovereign territoriality of the waters. Britain has a right to use it's navy to protect civilian shipping in its territorial waters. So does Iran.

... you and the other far lefties ...

Please clean the shit out of your sensory intakes and pay attention: I'm not 'left' (either far or otherwise).

Figleaf · March 31, 2007

It's always about that. But the far left, people like Figleaf and Polynewbie, will accept at face value, whatever Iranians say, while instantly dismissing whatever a western capitalist nation says ...

Moronic comment, again.

One, I'm not leftist. It would require a sub-par intelligence or a supremely uniformed arrogance to truly believe that I am.

Two, nowhere on this thread have I indicated that I accept the Iranian claims, nor have I dismissed the British claims. Tragically faulty literacy would be required for someone to think otherwise.

Figleaf · March 31, 2007

A kidnapping is an act of war.

Technically, kidnapping is not an act of war, it's a crime.

The act of war would be crossing into Iraqi (or Iranian depending on who you believe) territorial waters with military forces and interfering with legitimate marine traffic.

Figleaf · March 31, 2007

Now if those already indentified contacts marked as Iranian started to move pick up speed, thier course could be plotted and indentified well in advance...I guess the piont is nothing could happen on that water way that the frig did not know of within seconds of it happening...plenty of time to have ordered the helo into a blocking postion, and have the boarding party disembark for the frig....
I believe they were taken in their boats on their way back to the HMS Cornwall after inspecting a Japanese frieghter thought to be carrying cars. You should read more before speculating.

You should read more closely before correcting someone, since your purported correction didn't actually bear on anything AG actually said.

DogOnPorch · March 31, 2007

He seems to be under the impression the British were still on the frieghter. But, thank-you for your concern.

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Those who are slow to know suppose that slowness is the essence of knowledge

---Friedrich Nietzsche

DogOnPorch · March 31, 2007

Technically, kidnapping is not an act of war, it's a crime.

The act of war would be crossing into Iraqi (or Iranian depending on who you believe) territorial waters with military forces and interfering with legitimate marine traffic.

Like British motor launches doing UN sanctioned searches?

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The man that sets out to carry a cat by its tail learns something that will always be useful and which will never grow dim or doubtful.

---Mark Twain

scribblet · March 31, 2007

I like this from the NP, it is time to hand the hostages over, or....

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/is...bf-a39b509371bc

How we can fight Tehran

The Iranian seizure of 15 British naval personnel is an outrage -- and an opportunity. Iran invaded Iraqi territorial waters, attacked British naval personnel enforcing resolutions of the UN Security Council and committed an act of piracy and kidnapping.

Iran then displayed its captives on national television and compelled them to read coerced political statements. It forced the captured female sailor to wear the Islamic hijab, a violation of her Geneva Convention right to practice her own religion.

These violent and lawless actions have shocked British and European public opinion. But they should not have surprised anyone.

This latest crisis, however, opens a chance to mobilize European opinion to action.

One of their own has been attacked and threatened with the prolonged abuse of its military personnel. The story will appear on television night after night after night. The longer it continues, the more British people and other Europeans will wonder: Is there anything we can do? And the good news is: Yes, there is.

-snip-

The bullying, blustering bravado of the Iranians should not conceal the truth that Iran is massively vulnerable to international pressure. For example:

- Iran's decrepit refineries cannot produce enough gasoline for Iranian drivers. So, although Iran is a major oil exporter, it must import 40% of its gasoline. An international embargo on gasoline sales to Iran would inflict

stignasty · March 31, 2007

Some wars have no benefit, one only has to look at Vietnam. While some wars are just, many have been proven to be nothing more than a waste of lives.

To be fair, it's easy to look with hindsight. At the time the cold war was raging and Vietnam seemed like the best place to stop the dominoes from falling. I remember reading that western leaders were concerned that all of Asia to India would fall to communism. If the US hadn't become involved, who knows if Cambodia would have remained the edge of communism or if it would have spread further.

DogOnPorch · March 31, 2007

To be fair, it's easy to look with hindsight. At the time the cold war was raging and Vietnam seemed like the best place to stop the dominoes from falling. I remember reading that western leaders were concerned that all of Asia to India would fall to communism. If the US hadn't become involved, who knows if Cambodia would have remained the edge of communism or if it would have spread further.

Aye, good point...and who knows...with some proper use of forces, perhaps Pol Pot would have been something you buy at Sears in the kitchen department rather than the Asian version of Hitler.

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Will the last soldier out of Viet-nam remember to turn the light out at the end of the tunnel? Thanks.

---Outhouse Graffiti, Viet-nam.

Figleaf · April 1, 2007

He seems to be under the impression the British were still on the frieghter. But, thank-you for your concern.

That's not the impression I have of his impression, but I guess I see where you got that impression.

Figleaf · April 1, 2007

Technically, kidnapping is not an act of war, it's a crime.
The act of war would be crossing into Iraqi (or Iranian depending on who you believe) territorial waters with military forces and interfering with legitimate marine traffic.

Like British motor launches doing UN sanctioned searches?

Exactly. (As long as they were within the terms of the mandate and not in someone else's territorial waters).

blueblood · April 1, 2007

Technically, kidnapping is not an act of war, it's a crime.

The act of war would be crossing into Iraqi (or Iranian depending on who you believe) territorial waters with military forces and interfering with legitimate marine traffic.

Like British motor launches doing UN sanctioned searches?

Exactly. (As long as they were within the terms of the mandate and not in someone else's territorial waters).

Except it's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they were in Iraqi waters.

Figleaf · April 1, 2007

Iran...forced the captured female sailor to wear the Islamic hijab, a violation of her Geneva Convention right to practice her own religion.

How the fuck does the National Post pretend to know that she was 'forced' to wear a hijab? Answer: they don't know that. They simply made it up out of whole cloth (so to speak). And the National Post purports to be a newspaper! Pathetic.

Hello NP ... How about TRYING to stick to facts???