Premiers Up in Arms over Budget

[geoffrey]

As the dust settles and day two of the budget comes, we see a few more details... ones that premiers in have-not resource provinces don't like.

The first, the cap on equalisation.

We all know Danny Williams is crazy, and my favourite quote from the responses of the Premiers, ""I don't think an Irishman named Jimmy Flaherty would disappoint so much as he did today. Newfoundlanders and Labradorians are feeling an intense sense of betrayal here by this government."

Those crazy Irishmen.

B.C.'s Revenue minister was also not impressed, "This is more about politics in Quebec and Central Canada than it is about strategic importance for British Columbia and Canada," said B.C. Revenue Minister Rick Thorpe.

The second, the real scope of how much went to Quebec. Just in the big buyout package, the average Quebecker got an effective province tax cut of $100 through the transfer. And who's Federal taxes go most to paying this transfer, without getting that total back annually through equalisation? Alberta and Ontario. We're not going to keep funding Quebec's experiment. It's time for either them or us to go. Alberta and Ontario together (population 14 million) get the same as Quebec (population 7.5mil)... despite receiving $1000 less in Ontario's case and $4000 less in Alberta's per capita than Quebec initially. This doesn't correct the fiscal imbalance!! This makes it far far worse.

So much for incentive in Canada.

Stelmach came out in favour of the budget, which is disappointing. He think's the few million Alberta got tossed it's way is enough. That'll probably cost him my vote next election. In the bigger picture, this budget screws us royally, and see mores taxes collected in Alberta, and more money sent to Quebec. That's completely unacceptable.

Alberta in the budget lost the ACCA, which will see more money flow out of the oilsands. Which would be find if they weren't bankrolling the rest of the country. Do they get a credit for all the Newfoundlanders they take off welfare by paying the unskilled labourers $100k a year to sweep a rig?

Another Tory broken promise... excluding resource revenues. This is actually good for Alberta, but the math and economics of it is a little too drawn out to explain in this thread (you can find plenty of papers on the topic). But it's terrible news for Saskatchewan, Newfoundland and British Columbia (who will no doubt become a have province after this budget). These fledgling economies (with the exception of BC) need the resource dollars to diversify. There is no point in having Newfoundland rich with oil to see another crash and have them back to their current state of affairs.

Non-renewable resources are the jurisdiction of the provinces alone, and all taxation on them is outside the powers of the Federal government. Decreasing transfers because of increased natural resource revenues is in my view a tax, and is unconsitutional. The Federal government should be completly blind to all resource activity. It's the inherent wealth of the province and the government has no business interfering with that.

Flaherty says he has returned to a principles based equalisation forumla. I don't see what's so principled in sending the most per capita dollars to Quebec, a province with the ability, resources and industry to not require equalisation, and putting the rest of us on the hook for it.

Quebecois/Quebeckers should be ashamed for encouraging this behavoir. I hope they enjoy their undeserved tax cuts while the rest of us pay more.

[hiti]

So Steve flip-flopped again. And screwed the ROC in the process.

And he thinks this puts him in majority?

Keep on deluding yourself, Stevie and Flim Flam.

[Topaz]

So Steve flip-flopped again. And screwed the ROC in the process.

And he thinks this puts him in majority?

Keep on deluding yourself, Stevie and Flim Flam.

It looks like Harper is going to have alot of problems come his way. The First Nation isn't happy, the Premiers of Sask and NFLD aren't happy and perhaps when the results of the budgets come out, the only ones happy are Quebecers, the Bloc and the 25-50 with kids. Since the budget is going to pass why should Quebecers vote for the Federalist?? They have their money with the passing of the budget. I would like to see Harper explain that one in Parliament!!

[jdobbin]

Alberta in the budget lost the ACCA, which will see more money flow out of the oilsands. Which would be find if they weren't bankrolling the rest of the country. Do they get a credit for all the Newfoundlanders they take off welfare by paying the unskilled labourers $100k a year to sweep a rig?

Doe Alberta need the ACCA permanently?

I agree that Alberta shouldn't have been singled out. However, I do think that is an expenditure that can be phased out. I would have also phased out or ended Atlantic Opportunities and Western Diversification as well.

I certainly would not have subsidized consumer spending on car purchases.

[Curiouscanuck]

Flaherty says he has returned to a principles based equalisation forumla. I don't see what's so principled in sending the most per capita dollars to Quebec, a province with the ability, resources and industry to not require equalisation, and putting the rest of us on the hook for it.

He is only following the rules. The rules suck. Over time Quebec will continue to require more and more.

Quebecois/Quebeckers should be ashamed for encouraging this behavoir. I hope they enjoy their undeserved tax cuts while the rest of us pay more.

The writers of the 1982 constitution should be ashamed of themselves. They created this situation.

Quebeckers are merely rationally using this unsustainable law to their advantage, at the cost of the have provinces.

[Wilber]

Quebec has the largest land area, is blessed with resources equal to or greater than any other province, including energy by way of it's hydro resources. It is situated close to the major markets in North America and as ready access to the Atlantic Ocean. In spite of all that, the only thing between its piss poor management and bankruptcy is the ROC.

[B. Max]

Stelmach came out in favour of the budget, which is disappointing. He think's the few million Alberta got tossed it's way is enough. That'll probably cost him my vote next election.

Baring something extraordinary in this budget I had already decided that I would not be voting Harper in the next election, and the budget would not get Stelmach my vote. This is the kind of budget I would expect out of the Liberals.

[madmax]

Baring something extraordinary in this budget I had already decided that I would not be voting Harper in the next election, and the budget would not get Stelmach my vote.

It would appear that Separtist Quebecers have Harpers attention and your Separatists movement does not.

[madmax]

The second, the real scope of how much went to Quebec. Just in the big buyout package, the average Quebecker got an effective province tax cut of $100 through the transfer. And who's Federal taxes go most to paying this transfer, without getting that total back annually through equalisation? Alberta and Ontario. We're not going to keep funding Quebec's experiment. It's time for either them or us to go. Alberta and Ontario together (population 14 million) get the same as Quebec (population 7.5mil)... despite receiving $1000 less in Ontario's case and $4000 less in Alberta's per capita than Quebec initially. This doesn't correct the fiscal imbalance!! This makes it far far worse.

Thanks for those numbers.

Another Tory broken promise... excluding resource revenues. This is actually good for Alberta, but the math and economics of it is a little too drawn out to explain in this thread (you can find plenty of papers on the topic). But it's terrible news for Saskatchewan, Newfoundland and British Columbia (who will no doubt become a have province after this budget). These fledgling economies (with the exception of BC) need the resource dollars to diversify. There is no point in having Newfoundland rich with oil to see another crash and have them back to their current state of affairs.

That was a thorough analysis. I haven't even looked at the budget, but I am reading your critique of it so I am taking alot of what you put forth at face value.

I can see those who are dissapointed have a distinct vision of what a federal budget should entail.

This appears to be a very populist budget. It also appears like an election feel good budget if you live in Quebec. I don't know how thrilled I would be if I was Premier of BC Sask or NFLD. At least it isn't a partisan attack. A Liberal, NDP and Conservative Premier have to explain to their electorate why this budget sucks for them.

[Leafless]

Quebec has the largest land area, is blessed with resources equal to or greater than any other province, including energy by way of it's hydro resources. It is situated close to the major markets in North America and as ready access to the Atlantic Ocean. In spite of all that, the only thing between its piss poor management and bankruptcy is the ROC.

Thanks to the Charter, Quebec can perpetually play the irresponsible province game, and dwell on culture forever.

Mr. Harper bit the old Quebec constitutional bait once again and creating at the same time an even more dysfunctional political system.

Majority government, I don't think so!

[Posit]

It appears others are upset too...

And so it begins, the fight is on!

March 20thth 2007

Negotiation or Confrontation, it is Canada’s Choice stated the title of

the

Senate Committee’s recent release of a study on land claims. As

predicted,

in yesterday’s budget announcement the Conservative government chose

Confrontation over Negotiation.

Not only did the Conservatives ignore First Nations for the second time

in

budget priorities, they crippled any foreseeable future budgets by

pledging

at least three years of surpluses to their already announced spending

commitments. Once the budget is passed, it will lock out First Nations

for

at least the next three years because there won’t be any room for any

government to find the money to address First Nation land claims. For

First

Nations, this is a no hope budget, it sets out a confrontation agenda

for

First Nations and this Conservative government.

“If you think that Brian Mulroney mishandled the Oka Crisis just

consider

how stupid Steven Harper will look by the fall of 2007” said Chief

Terrance

Nelson, “This guy has his cowboy hat on too tight, it blocked the blood

flow

to his brain, he had billions of dollars in surpluses to work with,

money

Mulroney didn’t have. We don’t want funding, we want a bigger share of

our

own resource wealth and whatever the cost, we will get control of our

lands

and the wealth of our lands”.

An emergency meeting of Chiefs will take place in early April to put

together a planned response, a response that will make sure voter rich

Ontario will be extremely angry with the Conservatives for escalating

an

isolated Caledonia situation to a national crisis.

For Further Information

Contact Chief Terrance Nelson

204-782-4827

[ceemes]

Like I said, a greasy combination of Televangelist and Used Car Salesman. If any of the current crop who are filling out the ranks of the CPC shakes your hand in the near future, be sure to count your fingers afterwards and check to see that your watch is still on your wrist.

Can't wait to hear the Harperite apologist try to explain this one away.

[Figleaf]

As the dust settles and day two of the budget comes, we see a few more details...

Good post, geoffrey, and not just because I agree. It's well thought out and comprehensive.

[Figleaf]

The writers of the 1982 constitution should be ashamed of themselves. They created this situation.

How do you figure that?

[Michael Bluth]

We all know Danny Williams is crazy, and my favourite quote from the responses of the Premiers, ""I don't think an Irishman named Jimmy Flaherty would disappoint so much as he did today. Newfoundlanders and Labradorians are feeling an intense sense of betrayal here by this government."

Yes, we do know Danny Williams is crazy. But Paul Wells made a very astute argument for why a PM might want to let Danny rant.

Apparently the premier of Newfoundland and Labrador is upset about the booty the recent budget delivers to his province. Here's what nobody seems to have explained to him.

Danny Williams made Paul Martin's life a screaming blue hell for most of a year and a half. Martin turned his government, his most senior staffers and bureaucratic helpers, and the entire tortured logic of Canadian fiscal federalism into pretzels to please Williams. Paul Martin wore himself into a sobbing heap to please Danny Williams.

And his reward was one fewer seat in NL than he had before he went to the trouble.

Why would any prime minister ever again lift a finger to appease Danny Williams?

Harper didn't really lift a finger to appease Williams.

The clip I saw on equalization mentioned that the provinces had the ability to opt-out of resource revenues being included in the equalization formula. Does anybody understand how this will work? It can't be a unitary choice by each province, or you the have-energy provinces would option out and the have-not energy procinces would stay in and scream blue murder...

Stelmach came out in favour of the budget, which is disappointing. He think's the few million Alberta got tossed it's way is enough. That'll probably cost him my vote next election.

Were you supportin' Ted Morton?

So I guess that leaves the Alberta Alliance as your only option provincially?

Alberta in the budget lost the ACCA, which will see more money flow out of the oilsands. Which would be find if they weren't bankrolling the rest of the country. Do they get a credit for all the Newfoundlanders they take off welfare by paying the unskilled labourers $100k a year to sweep a rig?

Come on Geoff. $100k to sweep a rig. Lemme guess, never been on a rig site. Don't fall for the malarkey the money is *that* good. And don't belittle how truly sh*tty the job of being a rig pig truly is.

I could make, and save, much more than I am now. To live in butthole no where, for a dangerous, mind-numbing, hard*ss job. Nooooooooo way man.

[blueblood]

The only fault of Danny Williams that I can see is that he won't drop the corporate tax rate to properly exploit the oil right on his doorstep. Atlantic Canada can be stupid rich and dare I say surpass Alberta. Other than that I think he is an excellent premier and his approval rating is a testament to that. He has excellent leadership qualities and a lot more persona than Harper. He stands up for his province in the wake of environmentalists trying to embarass them on national TV. He has a hot temper, but he's far from crazy.

Stelmach is a good ol' Ukrainian farm boy, he's playing Harper's game and giving him the benefit of the doubt. After all Harper needs some premiers on his side. Had Harper taxed the oil sands, Stelmach would pull a Williams.

Rig pigs get 2 months off in the spring time, plus a week off here and there throughout the year. During their time off they live like kings. Advancement is pretty good out there if your willing to stick it out, but be warned it like any other job is not for everyone.

I'd like to see how some of the armchair economists here would write it.

Me, broad tax cuts and better investments into traditional gov't expenditures and "money makers", cut Quebec and the East off from the trough. Basically what will net Canada the most money.

[August1991]

Flipping thorugh this thread, I have to agree with Bluth:

Harper didn't really lift a finger to appease Williams.

...

So I guess that leaves the Alberta Alliance as your only option provincially?

I hear complaints from Danny Williams (That's new? And as Bluth noted in reference to Paul Wells, sso what?). Saskatchewan too. Sask and NL have what, 17 seats?

Meanwhile Ontario is happy and Harper may well have killed the PQ/BQ, or at least made them a laughing stock.

I'm a little surprised that Alberta is not "up in arms". IME, Albertans are kind of naive about politics. Does that explain it?

Quebec politics are genuinely competitive. Albertan politics seem to be, uh, Cuban.

[blueblood]

Flipping thorugh this thread, I have to agree with Bluth:

Harper didn't really lift a finger to appease Williams.

...

So I guess that leaves the Alberta Alliance as your only option provincially?

I hear complaints from Danny Williams (That's new? And as Bluth noted in reference to Paul Wells, sso what?). Saskatchewan too. Sask and NL have what, 17 seats?

Meanwhile Ontario is happy and Harper may well have killed the PQ/BQ, or at least made them a laughing stock.

I'm a little surprised that Alberta is not "up in arms". IME, Albertans are kind of naive about politics. Does that explain it?

Quebec politics are genuinely competitive. Albertan politics seem to be, uh, Cuban.

I wouldn't write off those 17 seats like that. I think Harper's next majority will be a razor thin one. In order to get his majority, he will need every seat he can get his hands on. Harper will win the next election, but if he wants his majority, he should have the same mindset as his 06 victory in that every seat counts.

Of course quebec politics have to be competitive, that place NEEDS change, it hasn't found a status quo yet.

Alberta on the other hand has a really good thing going for it, why rock the boat?

[Michael Bluth]

Meanwhile Ontario is happy and Harper may well have killed the PQ/BQ, or at least made them a laughing stock.

I'm a little surprised that Alberta is not "up in arms". IME, Albertans are kind of naive about politics. Does that explain it?

Quebec politics are genuinely competitive. Albertan politics seem to be, uh, Cuban.

Hey, easy on the naievete. Believe it or not us Alberta hicks can get us some university learnin' these days...

What is there to be up in arms about?

There are a lot of middle-class Albertans and this budget was targeted at them.

Albertan politics are very much a mirror image of the Federal scene in the 1993 to Chretien retirement era.

A weak, divided left with a succession of weak leaders.

The 1993 election here was damned close.

PC- 44%

Lib - 39%

NDP - 11%

Unfortunately the split wasn't enough to oust the tories, or even lead to a minority government.

Had the Liberal leader of the day, Laurence Decore, not gotten cancer and had to resign there is a very good chance the Liberals would have won that next provincial election.

While it's very easy to make snotty comments about the "Cuban" nature of Alberta's politics it really shows a very superficial understanding of politics in general. Probably explains the deep insecurity that leads to arrogant comments such as "naive" being applied to people from an entire province.

[Figleaf]

Flipping thorugh this thread, I have to agree with Bluth:

Harper didn't really lift a finger to appease Williams.

...

So I guess that leaves the Alberta Alliance as your only option provincially?

I hear complaints from Danny Williams (That's new? And as Bluth noted in reference to Paul Wells, sso what?). Saskatchewan too. Sask and NL have what, 17 seats?

Meanwhile Ontario is happy and Harper may well have killed the PQ/BQ, or at least made them a laughing stock.

I'm a little surprised that Alberta is not "up in arms". IME, Albertans are kind of naive about politics. Does that explain it?

Quebec politics are genuinely competitive. Albertan politics seem to be, uh, Cuban.

I wouldn't write off those 17 seats like that. I think Harper's next majority will be a razor thin one. In order to get his majority, he will need every seat he can get his hands on. Harper will win the next election, but if he wants his majority, he should have the same mindset as his 06 victory in that every seat counts.

Of course quebec politics have to be competitive, that place NEEDS change, it hasn't found a status quo yet.

Alberta on the other hand has a really good thing going for it, why rock the boat?

Harper will never get a majority government. N e v e r. Even if Alberta is pathetic enough to keep supporting him while he teams up with the BQ to ship tax$$ to Quebec, who else will? What's in it for Manitoba or Saskatchewan or British Columbia or the Atlantic Provinces? Will Quebeckers vote tory out of gratitude? Is the middle class bribe really big enough to swing much of Ontario? I doubt it.

[Canadian Blue]

I think when people compare Harper to Dion, most more will likely support Harper.

As for saying people that don't agree with you are pathetic figleaf, that's pretty pathetic in itself.

Apparently the budget can't be all that bad if it's dividing the Liberal caucus.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

[Leafless]

The writers of the 1982 constitution should be ashamed of themselves. They created this situation.

How do you figure that?

Why don't you read the rest of his post, being:

"Quebeckers are merely rationally using this unsustainable law to their advantage, at the cost of the have provinces."

Don't you realize the 1982, 'Charter of Rights and Freedoms' contains parts relating to Quebec that are not only totally undemocratic but fly in the face in regards to 'basic inherent rights' concerning 'all Canadians' that have been won by the British. Canadians were denied those rights by the Liberal party of Canada, pertaining to our system of government as a 'constitutional monarchy' and a 'parliamentary democracy'.

Instead of DENYING Canadians their 'RIGHTS' in participating in constitutional amendments, why don't they do the RIGHT thing and make Canada a REPUBLIC.

BTW- Do you have any idea how much it cost to feed Quebec rights resulting from the Charter 1982 including a multitude of federal programs in Quebec? That total cost is unknown but I have seen estimates over $700-Billion dollars and I am not certain if that includes special federal programs and initiatives in Quebec but only relates to federal official bilingualism and associated cost.

[Figleaf]

The writers of the 1982 constitution should be ashamed of themselves. They created this situation.

How do you figure that?

Why don't you read the rest of his post, being:

"Quebeckers are merely rationally using this unsustainable law to their advantage, at the cost of the have provinces."

I read it; it tells me nothing of what he's talking about. What is there in the constitution that is causing Steve to bribe Quebec with federal money?

Don't you realize the 1982, 'Charter of Rights and Freedoms' contains parts relating to Quebec that are not only totally undemocratic but fly in the face in regards to 'basic inherent rights'...

What parts do you mean?

[Saturn]

Harper lied again. What's new?

Prior to the election Harper made a promise for special treatment for some provinces. Well, he lied! NFLD and Sask can whine all they want - they should have been smart enough not to trust him.

He didn't promise a special treatment for Quebec, but what do you know - we have a new nation in Canada and big tax breaks in Quebec to come thanks to Harper's special handouts.

If there is anything to learn here is that Harper is yet another lying politician, so don't trust his word.

[Canadian Blue]

Prior to the election Harper made a promise for special treatment for some provinces. Well, he lied! He didn't promise a special treatment for Quebec, but what do you know - we have a new nation in Canada and big tax breaks in Quebec to come thanks to Harper's special handouts. NFLD and Sask can whine all they want - they should have been smart enough not to trust him.

So Harper promised special treatment for some provinces, and then gave special treatment to Quebec. As well your tone is very arrogant, please do tell what policy in the election platform Harper reneged.