EchoesofMourning Posted March 15, 2007 Report Posted March 15, 2007 Which doesn't make him look like a particularly nice god. You think the Christian god is nice?! He kind of has a history of smiting - there was the sacrafice of children, the whole biblical plague thing, etc... The god of Christianity is not what you would call a 'good neibour'. Quote
Adel Posted March 15, 2007 Author Report Posted March 15, 2007 The creator does NOT interfere - usually - in human actions. If he did, one’s responsibility would be only on his intentions and what actions he has already taken. For example, if a person decides to rob a bank, and God – for a specific wisdom - does not want this to happen, He would interfere - in His ways – to prevent that… Another contradiction. It seems, acording to you, god manipulates events so as to pre-empt free choice. He's a puppet master. Thus, we must assume that evil actions-let's say, the Holocaust- are part of God's plan. Which doesn't make him look like a particularly nice god. I said the Creator sometimes interfere for the good of all including people who have bad intentions. He never interferes to prevent good deeds… I imagine a person is being planned to be killed and he is a good person. His parents and his family need him badly. For these reasons or others, God does not want him being killed. Then He interferes, which is good for all people including the one who planned to kill that persons… But these are very rare situations and if God did not mention them in the holy books we would not even know about them. Other situations people are given complete freedom to do whatever they want and they will hold responsibility for their actions… Holocaust or other tragedies are people’s actions and people involved are responsible. There is a big difference between whether God LIKES or ALLOWS bad deeds. The general role is that God allows almost everything to happen to give everyone complete and free choice. But this does not necessarily mean that He likes that. It is clear that He said in his holy books that He hates those actions and - unless they regret- people who committed that will be punished… One more point, here we are not taking about some people’s God. We are talking about The God. The ONLY creator to this world… Quote
Black Dog Posted March 15, 2007 Report Posted March 15, 2007 I said the Creator sometimes interfere for the good of all including people who have bad intentions. What about all those times he doesn't interfere? Why does he allow some evil acts to occur, but prevents others? He never interferes to prevent good deeds… How do you know? The general role is that God allows almost everything to happen to give everyone complete and free choice. But you say he will sometimes interfere. Mighty arbitrary, your god is. By the way: You don't address the contradiction. If everything has a creator, then who created god? If god does not require a creator, then not everything requires a creator and therefore god is uneccesary. If god has existed forever, then who's to say that the universe itself has not existed, in some form or another, forever? Simply restating that God has always existed doesn't resolve that contradiction. Quote
Adel Posted March 15, 2007 Author Report Posted March 15, 2007 I said the Creator sometimes interfere for the good of all including people who have bad intentions. What about all those times he doesn't interfere? Why does he allow some evil acts to occur, but prevents others? He never interferes to prevent good deeds… How do you know? The general role is that God allows almost everything to happen to give everyone complete and free choice. But you say he will sometimes interfere. Mighty arbitrary, your god is. By the way: You don't address the contradiction. If everything has a creator, then who created god? If god does not require a creator, then not everything requires a creator and therefore god is uneccesary. If god has existed forever, then who's to say that the universe itself has not existed, in some form or another, forever? Simply restating that God has always existed doesn't resolve that contradiction. There is a very big topic in religion called ‘Prayers’ . So whether prayer is just one asks the God for something or it does include physical movements while praying, people ask God for many things… He is the ONLY one who can allow or disallow any thing to happen…. In one of the holy book you can read “Oh Man, if all people, from the first one to the last one on this earth gathered together to do something for you, they would not be able to do that if I don’t allow it. And if you gathered together to prevent something that I have allowed they would be able to do that”… If there is sick person that doctors said no known medicine is there for him. And he or any one - his mother for example – asked the God to cure him and God accepted her prayer, he would interfere and cure him. I am sure you heard about many incidents like that that some people were cured without any apparent reason after all doctors determined he would never recover… Again this is due to His wisdom and does not prevent people from having free choice Quote
guyser Posted March 15, 2007 Report Posted March 15, 2007 Which doesn't make him look like a particularly nice god. Come on , lets get it right. God is not a He, it is a She...and she is black. Quote
marcinmoka Posted March 15, 2007 Report Posted March 15, 2007 Do not tell me “NATURE” changes our chromosomes also to create parts of our bodies’ parts the way they are. Why not? Why does "The creator" not always get it right, i.e deformities. After all, such anomalies are accounted for in genetics. Life is a big dice game. Quote " Influence is far more powerful than control"
Melanie_ Posted March 15, 2007 Report Posted March 15, 2007 The Riddle of Epicuris: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? He is the ONLY one who can allow or disallow any thing to happen….~snip~ In one of the holy book you can read “Oh Man, if all people, from the first one to the last one on this earth gathered together to do something for you, they would not be able to do that if I don’t allow it. And if you gathered together to prevent something that I have allowed they would be able to do that”… ~snip~ Again this is due to His wisdom and does not prevent people from having free choice You are not making any sense, Adel. You say he is the only one who can allow or disallow anything to happen, but still maintain that he doesn't prevent free choice. This needs a much better explanation than what you have given. Also you talk about prayer, as if it makes a difference to pray about anything. You have just said that he will do what he chooses - is he really swayed by people asking him to do things? If he has such complete wisdom, prayer is meaningless because he already knows what he will do regardless of what anyone asks. And I find it offensive to think that, if he had such wisdom and power to prevent suffering, he would only act if asked to do so. Perhaps you should clarify which holy books you keep referring to? Quote For to be free is not merely to cast off one's chains, but to live in a way that respects and enhances the freedom of others. Nelson Mandela
August1991 Posted March 16, 2007 Report Posted March 16, 2007 I'll take issue with you now , Black Dog. So everything heeds to come from something except the creator? That's junk. Why not just say the universe has always existed and cut out the middle man?You haven't cut out the middleman. You've just changed the name. Instead of calling it the Creator/God, you now call it the Universe.A rose by any other name... Look, the problem with religious people is not that they believe in God. The problem is that they believe some humans have had contact with God and hence have some kind of inside knowledge. You can have faith in God but it's quite another thing to have faith in some guy who claims to have spoken to God. When someone (Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, the Pope) goes around telling me what to do, I call that politics not religion. I don't care whether he claims to be inspired by God - in fact, such inspiration is reason to be doubtful. I disagree with Kurt Vonnegut on many things but I think he got this right: Take care of the people and let God Almighty take care of Himself. What stops a charlatan from making the same claim?That is a very valid question...Anyone could come up and pretended he was a prophet... and actually this happened.... Through history, these are the characteristics of true prophets : etc. Adel, that's interesting. You admit that a charlatan could claim to be a prophet and then you suggest ways to know whether someone is a true prophet or a charlatan.You are employing the scientific method (rather badly) to decide. I applaud your efforts and suggest you carry them to their logical conclusion. If you do, you will realize that this God that impresses you so is far more wonderful and complex than any so-called prophet has ever understood. IMV, Mohammed (and Jesus Christ) were just politicians. End of story. (Admittedly, others view them differently but to me, that's a political issue.) You are not making any sense, Adel. You say he is the only one who can allow or disallow anything to happen, but still maintain that he doesn't prevent free choice. This needs a much better explanation than what you have given.Melanie, replace the word 'Universe' with the word 'God' and your questions and quotes will make more sense. Also you talk about prayer, as if it makes a difference to pray about anything. You have just said that he will do what he chooses - is he really swayed by people asking him to do things? If he has such complete wisdom, prayer is meaningless because he already knows what he will do regardless of what anyone asks. And I find it offensive to think that, if he had such wisdom and power to prevent suffering, he would only act if asked to do so.Prayer. I have always figured that prayer means talking to one's self. Inside all of us, there is a constant conversation. For some, this is called prayer. The basis of good mental health (I think June Callwood used to write about this) is that this internal conversation is a pleasant and enjoyable conversation. Quote
Charles Anthony Posted March 16, 2007 Report Posted March 16, 2007 The Riddle of Epicuris:Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? Answer: God is an anarchist. That explains everything. Quote We do not have time for a meeting of the flat earth society. << Où sont mes amis ? Ils sont ici, ils sont ici... >>
Black Dog Posted March 16, 2007 Report Posted March 16, 2007 You haven't cut out the middleman. You've just changed the name. Instead of calling it the Creator/God, you now call it the Universe.A rose by any other name... Except I'm not saying the universe has always existed. But there's no more reason to belive that then there is to believe in God. Dig? Come to think of it, though, a perpetual universe is still a damn sight more probable than the whole supreme being thing. Quote
August1991 Posted March 16, 2007 Report Posted March 16, 2007 Except I'm not saying the universe has always existed. But there's no more reason to belive that then there is to believe in God. Dig? Come to think of it, though, a perpetual universe is still a damn sight more probable than the whole supreme being thing.Perpetual universe? Supreme being? Same difference. Quote
theloniusfleabag Posted March 16, 2007 Report Posted March 16, 2007 Dear August1991, Perpetual universe? Supreme being? Same difference.Not exactly, for the universe is merely a 'being', a thing. A 'God' is more than that, since we apply personification to the notion. The 'universe' (as we know it now) may be only a part of 'existence'. 'Being' is the grandest notion. As Melanie points out, Adel is quite full of crap. A good theologian would put forth much more convincing arguments. Black Dog and melanie have thus far slaughtered Adel's first year theology rubbish. Quote Would the Special Olympics Committee disqualify kids born with flippers from the swimming events?
August1991 Posted March 16, 2007 Report Posted March 16, 2007 ...the universe is merely a 'being', a thing. A 'God' is more than that, since we apply personification to the notion. The 'universe' (as we know it now) may be only a part of 'existence'. 'Being' is the grandest notion.Can you please run that one by me again? Quote
BC_chick Posted March 16, 2007 Report Posted March 16, 2007 The age-old something doesn't come from nothing argument. Therefore ther MUST be a God. Except for the fact that something did come from nothing when "God" was created. Quote It's kind of the worst thing that any humans could be doing at this time in human history. Other than that, it's fine." Bill Nye on Alberta Oil Sands
theloniusfleabag Posted March 16, 2007 Report Posted March 16, 2007 Dear August1991, Can you please run that one by me again?Sure, I did't really have time to explain too much. the universe is merely a 'being', a thing.Merely an object, with boundaries, (separating it from the infinite surroundings of 'that which does not be') thus giving it the parameters needed for it to qualify as 'existing'. However, that does not make it the sole thing that 'does be'. It may be one of several, or even an infinite amount. If there is infinity, then all things should happen. (for example, what are the odds of you rolling a 1 on a six sided die on the first roll? 0.167... what are the odds of rolling a million 1s on the first roll of a million dice? astronomical...but, what are the chances of rolling a million ones of the first roll of a million dice if you are given an infinite number of chances? 100%) This means, August1991, that all possibilities will come to pass. A singularity may blossom (or explode) into a universe and appear unique to us, but only because we are inside of it. (on a wacky sidenote)... Above all the things in nature humans have mastered, the most valuable and the most inexorable has eluded us...time. A 'God' is more than that, since we apply personification to the notionI mean this in the prose sense, (giving inanimate objects or notions human qualities) as rebuttal to your statement...Perpetual universe? Supreme being? Same differenceThe '+' sign is missing. Perpetual universe +personification = Supreme being and this... 'Being' is the grandest notion.Name one thing that can be accomplished without this prerequisite. Quote Would the Special Olympics Committee disqualify kids born with flippers from the swimming events?
noahbody Posted March 16, 2007 Report Posted March 16, 2007 If someone's head is up their own ass, God put it there for a reason. Quote
Adel Posted March 16, 2007 Author Report Posted March 16, 2007 Do not tell me “NATURE” changes our chromosomes also to create parts of our bodies’ parts the way they are. Why not? Why does "The creator" not always get it right, i.e deformities. After all, such anomalies are accounted for in genetics. Life is a big dice game. I can safely assume that the biggest obstacle from thinking clearly is: Habits 1- When you get used to something long enough (thousands or millions of years for mankind), people assume this is the only way things must be. Anything else is does not make sense. 2- Just because living cells are “living”, people really get into thee illusion that those cells DO think and judge and modify and plan… by themselves. 3- Analogy 1: If every human being finds a letter in his/her mailbox everyday since birth until death, almost all people will consider this normal and ‘logical’. We do not need to assume that SOMEONE sends or delivers those letters…Do you say ‘No’’...then ask yourself who created food for living beings ready for them? 4- Analogy 2: If you ordered food and someone delivered it not covered or had dirt, you get angry “How can I eat food like that”. But having fruit created with wonderful peels or skins, we people – habits’ salves – say “Oh that is normal. Fruit knew that by itself and skinned banana – for example – so neatly that living beings can eat it!!!! ” We need to get out of our habits and start asking ourselves about the things we take for granted and fully ignore the ONE who created them… Quote
Figleaf Posted March 16, 2007 Report Posted March 16, 2007 It's amazing how unconvincing such bumf is, considering how many people are still suckered by it. Quote
Adel Posted March 16, 2007 Author Report Posted March 16, 2007 The Riddle of Epicuris:Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? He is the ONLY one who can allow or disallow any thing to happen….~snip~ In one of the holy book you can read “Oh Man, if all people, from the first one to the last one on this earth gathered together to do something for you, they would not be able to do that if I don’t allow it. And if you gathered together to prevent something that I have allowed they would be able to do that”… ~snip~ Again this is due to His wisdom and does not prevent people from having free choice You are not making any sense, Adel. You say he is the only one who can allow or disallow anything to happen, but still maintain that he doesn't prevent free choice. This needs a much better explanation than what you have given. Also you talk about prayer, as if it makes a difference to pray about anything. You have just said that he will do what he chooses - is he really swayed by people asking him to do things? If he has such complete wisdom, prayer is meaningless because he already knows what he will do regardless of what anyone asks. And I find it offensive to think that, if he had such wisdom and power to prevent suffering, he would only act if asked to do so. Perhaps you should clarify which holy books you keep referring to? Good point… When I said “the only one who can allow or disallow anything to happen”, I meant no-one at all can do anything if He does not permit that… But the missing point here is that He had already decided to leave complete choice to human beings to think and commit actions. It is because He allowed them to do that not because they have the genuine ability to do that… The creator created the whole universe having no options but to follow His orders. He just made the exception to mankind examine their behavior and actions. The living creatures are two categories: 1- Having choice living beings (mankind...) – will be judged… 2- Not having choice and will not be judged (Angles – plants – animals…etc) The creator decided to honor some creatures and give them the mind and full choice and in return they will be responsible for their choices and good or bad deeds... As for prayers, of course the creator knows what he does and will do because he is above time and place… Past, present, and future are the same for Him. The creator is the most merciful for his creatures as He created them. Actually all the mercy we have and mothers have towards their kids is just a small fraction of His mercy towards His creatures… When one of His creatures is in trouble and calls Him sincerely, He answers his/her prayers… Quote
Charles Anthony Posted March 16, 2007 Report Posted March 16, 2007 IMV, Mohammed (and Jesus Christ) were just politicians. End of story. (Admittedly, others view them differently but to me, that's a political issue.)Now you must say tell us: what distinguishes a charlatan from a politician? Otherwise, you have just changed the name too. Instead of calling him a prophet, you now call him a politician. Quote We do not have time for a meeting of the flat earth society. << Où sont mes amis ? Ils sont ici, ils sont ici... >>
Figleaf Posted March 16, 2007 Report Posted March 16, 2007 When I said “the only one who can allow or disallow anything to happen”, I meant no-one at all can do anything if He does not permit that… But the missing point here is that He had already decided to leave complete choice to human beings to think and commit actions. It is because He allowed them to do that not because they have the genuine ability to do that… How can you be oblivious to the nonsensical quality of that statement? The creator decided to honor some creatures and give them the mind and full choice and in return they will be responsible for their choices and good or bad deeds... How can it be an honour when it was unearned and could not be appreciated? Why say 'in return' when there was no consultation or agreement? When one of His creatures is in trouble and calls Him sincerely, He answers his/her prayers… But then why go thru the sadistic exercise of letting him get in trouble in the first place? Quote
Adel Posted March 16, 2007 Author Report Posted March 16, 2007 When I said “the only one who can allow or disallow anything to happen”, I meant no-one at all can do anything if He does not permit that… But the missing point here is that He had already decided to leave complete choice to human beings to think and commit actions. It is because He allowed them to do that not because they have the genuine ability to do that… How can you be oblivious to the nonsensical quality of that statement? The creator decided to honor some creatures and give them the mind and full choice and in return they will be responsible for their choices and good or bad deeds... How can it be an honour when it was unearned and could not be appreciated? Why say 'in return' when there was no consultation or agreement? When one of His creatures is in trouble and calls Him sincerely, He answers his/her prayers… But then why go thru the sadistic exercise of letting him get in trouble in the first place? Thanks for your reply… The God is not that bad… He created us in a very good shape, gave us everything we need, prepared the earth for us, gave us minds to think and invent, protect us from outer space, sent us many may prophets who suffered enough just to guide people and delivered the messages… Love, mercy, intelligence, caring, understanding…etc are from Him not created from some stones and gases under high intensity of heat!!!! It is amazing how dare we are when talking about the creator of the whole universe. This might be because we do not know Him well. Maybe this is some of the meanings of one verse in one of the creator’s holy books. He said “Only scientists are those who fear God most….” There is a big difference between braveness and ignorance. If someone never experience touching a bare electric wire and he never knew anything about electricity, he will not hesitate touching it. No-one will call that braveness. … The more you know about the creator of this universe, the more you know how mighty He is, how merciful He is… Probably when we stop playing the role of the universe masters and think of ourselves as creatures, then we will think more rationally… Quote
Black Dog Posted March 16, 2007 Report Posted March 16, 2007 Perpetual universe? Supreme being? Same difference. So you're saying an inanimate object (which, essentially, is what the universe is), the "behaviour" of which is subject to various restrictions is the same as an animate, concious, sentient, omnipotent and omniscient entity that exists completely outside the bounds of what we know as reality? Look, if you were arguing that God is merely a human term to describe the mysteries of the universe and the infinite possibilities it contains (including the possibility of this universe being one among an infinite number)-IOW, shorthand for "all the shit we can't really fathom with our puny minds"- fine. But that's not what most people, including the O.P, are talking about. Quote
Figleaf Posted March 16, 2007 Report Posted March 16, 2007 When I said “the only one who can allow or disallow anything to happen”, I meant no-one at all can do anything if He does not permit that… But the missing point here is that He had already decided to leave complete choice to human beings to think and commit actions. It is because He allowed them to do that not because they have the genuine ability to do that… How can you be oblivious to the nonsensical quality of that statement? The creator decided to honor some creatures and give them the mind and full choice and in return they will be responsible for their choices and good or bad deeds... How can it be an honour when it was unearned and could not be appreciated? Why say 'in return' when there was no consultation or agreement? When one of His creatures is in trouble and calls Him sincerely, He answers his/her prayers… But then why go thru the sadistic exercise of letting him get in trouble in the first place? Thanks for your reply… The God is not that bad… He created us in a very good shape, gave us everything we need, prepared the earth for us, gave us minds to think and invent, protect us from outer space, sent us many may prophets who suffered enough just to guide people and delivered the messages… Love, mercy, intelligence, caring, understanding…etc are from Him not created from some stones and gases under high intensity of heat!!!! It is amazing how dare we are when talking about the creator of the whole universe. This might be because we do not know Him well. Maybe this is some of the meanings of one verse in one of the creator’s holy books. He said “Only scientists are those who fear God most….” There is a big difference between braveness and ignorance. If someone never experience touching a bare electric wire and he never knew anything about electricity, he will not hesitate touching it. No-one will call that braveness. … The more you know about the creator of this universe, the more you know how mighty He is, how merciful He is… Probably when we stop playing the role of the universe masters and think of ourselves as creatures, then we will think more rationally… I can't help but notice that your reply doesn't touch on any of the actual content of my reply. Quote
guyser Posted March 16, 2007 Report Posted March 16, 2007 The God is not that bad… I know of a ton of people who would dispute this He ... protect us from outer space, sent us many may prophets who suffered enough just to guide people and delivered the messages… From outer space ? WTF ? You get loonier with each post. Ahh the "profits" , how come NONE come since we have cancorders, cameras...you know all those things that can establish "proof" . Naw, that would be too easy, better we try and brainwash some minds. It is amazing how dare we are when talking about the creator of the whole universe. This might be because we do not know Him well. Maybe this is some of the meanings of one verse in one of the creator’s holy books. He said “Only scientists are those who fear God most….” Or....It is amazing how those that have faith never stop and think for themselves that there are more than a billion stars in the universe, it takes more than 200 years travelling at the speed of light just to cross a galaxy.....and oh yeah...one person did this in seven days. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigght. There is a big difference between braveness and ignorance. And quite frankly religions are sorely lacking in braveness and have heaps of ignorance. Probably when we stop playing the role of the universe masters and think of ourselves as creatures, then we will think more rationally… Yes, lets give up the master idea and instead give it up to religious leaders who can and do F the populace over. Quote
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