Our Incompetent Federal Bureaucracy

[August1991]

Passports, SIN cards, census and immigration are core responsibilities of the federal bureaucracy. They show serious failure to perform. Some of this has come to light because of the recent Audito-General's report, other problems are known because of other studies.

Invariably, the federal bureaucrats will not acknowledge these problems in any meaningful way. They have many reasons to explain the problem. No deputy minister or assistant deputy minister will lose a job. Our currently elected politicians will fire no one.

Social Insurance Numbers:

Ms. Fraser expressed concern about "two serious and long-standing problems" with management of the Social Insurance Number — questionable accuracy of the massive list of number holders and lack of clarity about how federal departments may use the key identifier.

"This is the fourth time since 1998 that we've reported these two problems," she told a news conference. "The government should have resolved them by now."

Agencies rely on the SIN to issue billions of dollars in federal benefits and the number is also commonly used outside government.

Ms. Fraser said strong management of the SIN was "more important than ever" given the growing global incidence of identity theft, fraud and security risks.

...

In examining the federal register of Social Insurance Numbers, she noted that as of last June the number of usable SINs exceeded the estimate of the Canadian population aged 30 and older by about 2.9 million.

That was down from five million in 2002, but still of concern due to the risk of fraud from SINs linked to fictitious names, or multiple numbers under a single identity.

She said Human Resources and Social Development Canada had limited assurance of the "accuracy, completeness and reliability" of SIN register data.

Ms. Fraser also found the Treasury Board Secretariat had not issued updated policies and guidelines on federal use of the Social Insurance Number, leading to "different interpretations and applications."

G & M

SIN cards are problematic. I have heard too many anecdotal stories of people receiving various benefits (disability, pension or other) while living abroad or not being otherwise entitled.

I am frankly suspicious about the bureaucrats' claim that they have reduced the number of "unaccounted for" SINs.

The same article refers to problems of issuing passports to non-Canadians:

The auditor found the agency had not come up with ways to easily check the identity data on birth and citizenship certificates against the documents' original source.

The government acknowledged in November that a man claiming to be Paul William Hampel presented a phony Ontario birth certificate to successfully obtain passports in 1995, 2000 and 2002. Accused of being a spy, he was deported to Moscow.

In the case of passports, I'm more astonished by the waiting time:

So many Canadians are scrambling to apply for passports that officials say you may have to wait up to two months to get the travel document.

The Passport Canada office is averaging 21,000 applications a day -- over 60 per cent more than the system is designed to handle, according to a report.

CTV

The passport office knew about this before. And their claim of two months is just that, a claim. (Anecdotal evidence, depending on city, suggests it's longer.) The passport office now has a fast-track service for "urgent" cases. When a bureaucracy solves wait times by such procedures, it is in serious trouble.

Now, how about the Census:

E-mails obtained by CBC News under an Access to Information request showed the anger felt by Statistics Canada employees. "We are on the verge of creating a major public relations backlash," one e-mail stated.

Other messages complained about unpaid staff. "This is getting out of hand," one said, while another one said, "Bottom line: the pay system is a dog."

Sharon Newton, an enumerator in Chilliwack, B.C., said she didn't get paid for five months and that her managers became so desperate to finish the census that they told her to just count heads and forget the names.

"At the end, they just said, 'We really don't care. As long as you can find out if there [are] three people that live in that house, put down Mickey Mouse, Minnie Mouse and Donald Duck on it. We don't care about a name.'"

CBC

This is bound to become serious because each person counted represents several thousand dollars in transfer payments.

Now, immigration:

Statistics Canada shows that average incomes of recent immigrant cohorts are well below those of Canadians with similar demographic characteristics, even 10 years after their date of immigration. These facts are important because Canada has a pervasive welfare system and it is no longer true that immigrants do not affect the incomes of Canadians directly.

Canada’s welfare system relies on a highly progressive personal income structure and provides universally accessible free government benefits. Because of the low incomes of immigrants, this system has resulted in substantial net transfers of taxpayers’ money from Canadians to the recent immigrants. These costs are estimated to be $1.4 billion in the year 2000 for the cohort of immigrants that arrived in 1990. For all of the immigrants who arrived during the 13 years before 2003, the cost in 2002 alone is estimated to be $18.3 billion.

Fraser Institute

Our federal (and Quebec) bureaucrats don't accept the right immigrants. There are 6 billion people in the world and many would qualify, if they ever made it physically to Canada, under our arbitrary refugee criteria. We must be more hard-headed in choosing who we allow in.

-----

We have discussed some of these issues ad nauseum on this forum. I don't really want to start another thread about immigration.

Instead, I want to make a point about the federal government and our federal civil service. I'm tired of civil servants creating more complex ways to spend my money when they can't even administer properly the core programmes that I expect of them. I'm also tired of civil servants inventing X, Y, Z reason to explain why their complex programmes don't work properly.

Our federal politicians should tell the civil servants they've hired to:

Refuse immigrants until you know how to select good ones that don't go on welfare.

Stop creating complex census forms until you can administer simple ones that count people accurately.

Issue passports quickly and accurately. (Is this too much to ask? We pay separately for this service.)

Ensure the social insurance number list is accurate.

If I learned that my bank was issuing millions of fraudulent credit cards or misplacing account statements, losing money as a result and driving my rates up to cover their losses, I'd cross the street to a more competent bank. If my bank took two months to open a new bank account, I'd find a new bank.

I can't fire civil servants, and I'm not prepared to live in another country. I only have a single vote that will change nothing in the grand scheme of things.

I voted Conservative in the past federal election but I'm seriously thinking about voting for a different party in the next. I'll probably keep changing my choice until a political party clues in to the fact that all I want is competent administration.

I don't want to hear Stephen Harper announcing in a press conference that the "federal government" will give hundreds of millions to the provinces. I want to hear that federal politicians have federal civil servants under control and performing their job well.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear August1991,

That was some rant. Best in a while, from anyone. I have heard the numbers in the news, and I share in your revulsion. However, rather than address any of the points themselves, I would like to point out how close you came to having the answers.

I can't fire civil servants, and I'm not prepared to live in another country. I only have a single vote that will change nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Yet you go on to say that you voted...wishful thinking perhaps? Of course your vote counts, but only in a very small percentage sort of way. Unless, of course, voter turnout next election happens to be...August1991! Mind you, that is still no guarantee that election promises will be honoured.

I voted Conservative in the past federal election but I'm seriously thinking about voting for a different party in the next. I'll probably keep changing my choice until a political party clues in to the fact that all I want is competent administration.

Very similar to your next point, but...

I don't want to hear Stephen Harper announcing in a press conference that the "federal government" will give hundreds of millions to the provinces. I want to hear that federal politicians have federal civil servants under control and performing their job well.

You must consider that how politicians aquire (and retain) their jobs generally isn't based on performance nor results. It is based on votes. Sometimes huge amounts of votes can be lost for doing a job well (or at least, profitably).

Efficiency and accountability in the civil service would mean huge job losses, and it would mean pissing off CUPE. Do that, and they could, in turn (at least in the short term) make everyone's life a living hell. The politicians would then face the wrath of the electorate, The next politician to be elected would have to agree to 'play ball' (nicely) with the civil service and return to the status quo, or be sunk.

[geoffrey]

Efficiency and accountability in the civil service would mean huge job losses, and it would mean pissing off CUPE. Do that, and they could, in turn (at least in the short term) make everyone's life a living hell. The politicians would then face the wrath of the electorate, The next politician to be elected would have to agree to 'play ball' (nicely) with the civil service and return to the status quo, or be sunk.

Alas you arrive at the source of August's (and the rest of the accountability crowd, myself included) problem. The CUPE is just too strong. I've heard of the difficulties in firing someone due to their incompetence, or negligence to their job... it's not difficult, it's impossible. The government essientially has to bring in another person to do the slacker's job and pay both.

It creates massive trouble. I have little problem saying that CUPE could be one of the biggest reasons we have such a corrupt, inefficent beuraucracy in Canada. CUPE represents some of the flithest rationale and power grabbing out of any labour movement I've looked at.

For example, CUPE employes at a Regina care centre are asking for a 17% raise. Now what the hell is that?

I'd love to say fire 'em all and those that want to work can return without a union. But we can't. They are in an invincible position. It's such a massive union that nothing can be done.

Like you eluded to, any cut backs or efficencies in the public service would result in absolute grid lock elsewhere, as all the union workers would start protesting away.... crumbling that government's chance at re-election.

So we're stuck with a terribly inefficient and unresponsive beuraucracy forever. Thanks CUPE.

[Argus]

Efficiency and accountability in the civil service would mean huge job losses, and it would mean pissing off CUPE. Do that, and they could, in turn (at least in the short term) make everyone's life a living hell. The politicians would then face the wrath of the electorate, The next politician to be elected would have to agree to 'play ball' (nicely) with the civil service and return to the status quo, or be sunk.

Alas you arrive at the source of August's (and the rest of the accountability crowd, myself included) problem. The CUPE is just too strong. I've heard of the difficulties in firing someone due to their incompetence, or negligence to their job... it's not difficult, it's impossible. The government essientially has to bring in another person to do the slacker's job and pay both.

It creates massive trouble. I have little problem saying that CUPE could be one of the biggest reasons we have such a corrupt, inefficent beuraucracy in Canada.

Well, yeah, but you don't know what you're talking about. Nor does August

First of all, the union is called PSAC, not CUPE. CUPE is the Ontario civil servants union.

Second, the longstanding problems of disorganization in programs such as the SIN cards are not the responsibility of the rank and file clerks and bureaucrats who make up the union. Those can and should be laid at the feet of exempt civil servants - "exempt" in the civil service means non-unionized. And I'm talking about the executives and, to some extent, managers.

Deputy ministers and assistant deputy ministers, those people, and perhaps those on the next level or two below, are the ones who propose programs, who decide priorities, who massage information to the ministers, who have been around long enough to know the ropes and know how things work. Their hapless ministers often know little or nothing about their departments and must rely entirely on their senior staff to 'guide" them. No one ever makes them accountable for anything. You don't even know their names, but they're often more influential than their ministers.

The TV show "Yes Ministers" was funny in large measure because it was mostly true. Politicians are concerned mainly with political issues. The ADs and their executive staff actually run all departments and agencies. And if they're screwing up, the responsibility to bring them into line lies solely with their political masters.

As far as immigration goes, that has always been a highly political issue with constant dabbling and interference from politicians trying to score political points from ethnic groups. We don't bring in the "wrong" immigrants because immigration bureaucrats can't decide on a better system. We bring in the wrong bureaucrats because politicians (Liberals) want people from those particular ethnic groups which have been shown to support them during election times. And if they go on welfare after they arrive, well, so what, so long as they vote Liberal?

[Charles Anthony]

This sounds like chaos!

So we're stuck with a terribly inefficient and unresponsive beuraucracy forever.

We can change that.

I can't fire civil servants, and I'm not prepared to live in another country. I only have a single vote that will change nothing in the grand scheme of things.

You do not have to go anywhere or you can resign your civil servants. Being in a jurisdiction that has both provincial and federal separatist parties, you are one of few Canadians whose insignificant vote can actually directed us away from this federal bureaucratic absurdity.

John Lennon said "The war is over" but he also said "(if you want it)" too.

[Saturn]

Well, yeah, but you don't know what you're talking about. Nor does August

What's new?

Second, the longstanding problems of disorganization in programs such as the SIN cards are not the responsibility of the rank and file clerks and bureaucrats who make up the union. Those can and should be laid at the feet of exempt civil servants - "exempt" in the civil service means non-unionized. And I'm talking about the executives and, to some extent, managers.

Deputy ministers and assistant deputy ministers, those people, and perhaps those on the next level or two below, are the ones who propose programs, who decide priorities, who massage information to the ministers, who have been around long enough to know the ropes and know how things work. Their hapless ministers often know little or nothing about their departments and must rely entirely on their senior staff to 'guide" them. No one ever makes them accountable for anything. You don't even know their names, but they're often more influential than their ministers.

The TV show "Yes Ministers" was funny in large measure because it was mostly true. Politicians are concerned mainly with political issues. The ADs and their executive staff actually run all departments and agencies. And if they're screwing up, the responsibility to bring them into line lies solely with their political masters.

Don't know where you go that but I'm pleasantly surprised to see you talking reality. The unionized (lower level) civil service are the people who actually do the work and deliver services. The top management and politicians are the ones who decide on programs, priorities, and how money gets spent. Ministers don't know heck about their departments, they just want to get re-elected. Top management knows the issues and what makes good policy but their interest is to make the politicians happy because that's their way to get ahead. As one public service analyst put it: "My job is to protect the public purse from the stupidity of politicians and to come up with good policy." Well, his job got harder and harder as top management became more and more interested only in policy that would make the politicians look good in the last couple of years and he recently quit.

The public service (aside from top management) are neither responsible for not hiring enough staff to handle the enormous volume of passport applications and the increased number of checks required to issue a passport, nor are they responsible for the fact that it's been known for years when new passport requirements for visiting the US would kick in, yet most Canadians couldn't be bothered to apply until the last second. The public service isn't responsible for the fact that StatCan's budget gets cut every year, including a big unexpected additional cut in the census year thanks to Bernier, nor for the fact that a huge number of idiots in Alberta didn't fill out their census forms to stick it to the bastards in Ottawa (when in reality they are sticking themselves and their province in the rear).

[Keepitsimple]

The press always focuses on the negative, so we should take some solace in the fact that the Auditor General's report was reviewing seven key areas that had previosly been cited as "unsatisfactory". Of those seven, five have now improved to "satisfactory" in terms of the improvements that they were asked to make as a result of the last audit. The Toronto Star of course, did not mention this larger context. Regardless, there's lots of work to be done. Here is an excerpt from today's Toronto Sun:

The auditor's findings came within a larger status report on seven government programs and departments that had previously been criticized by Fraser's office.

Only two of those programs, SINs and managing the Coast Guard fleet, received an "unsatisfactory" grade in the auditor general's new report.

"This status report shows that the government has taken satisfactory action in the majority of the areas we revisited this year," said Fraser.

Link: http://www.torontosun.com/News/Canada/2007...pf-3616486.html

[Saturn]

You do not have to go anywhere or you can resign your civil servants. Being in a jurisdiction that has both provincial and federal separatist parties, you are one of few Canadians whose insignificant vote can actually directed us away from this federal bureaucratic absurdity.

Don't worry, provincial governments operate in the same manner (or even worse). Politicians are incompetent/self-interested everywhere.

[August1991]

I have to agree largely with Argus although I find it rather strange that he suddenly blames politicians for the problems in immigration but largely exempts them of blame in other areas.

A fish rots from the head or a tree dies from the top down. Use the expression of your choice.

As a simple voter, I can only hold politicians accountable. It is their job to supervise the civil service. I can't fire senior civil servants.

In the past 40 years, our federal government has become vastly more complex. The disconnect in accountability is of Soviet proportions.

Don't worry, provincial governments operate in the same manner (or even worse). Politicians are incompetent/self-interested everywhere.

That may be true in Ontario but in general it's not. The provincial governments in Regina or Charlottetown, for example, can less easily avoid the reality before them.

The federal government apparatus is a universe unto itself.

[Saturn]

I have to agree largely with Argus although I find it rather strange that he suddenly blames politicians for the problems in immigration but largely exempts them of blame in other areas.

Argus said "The ADs and their executive staff actually run all departments and agencies. And if they're screwing up, the responsibility to bring them into line lies solely with their political masters." I don't see how that exempts politicians from blame, quite the opposite.

As a simple voter, I can only hold politicians accountable. It is their job to supervise the civil service. I can't fire senior civil servants.

I thought you were holding the front-line at the passport office responsible. Didn't see anything in your post about holding the politicians responsible for anything.

[Argus]

I have to agree largely with Argus although I find it rather strange that he suddenly blames politicians for the problems in immigration but largely exempts them of blame in other areas.

I don't believe I've ever exempted politicians from blame in _any_ area. I'm merely pointing out that in this area, those who say the bureacracy is bloated with lazy union members who are responsible for screwing everything up are dead wrong.

The disorganization in the federal public service is due to self-serving, lifer executives, and craven politicians who really only care about short-term political interests - as opposed to the general welfare of the nation - or their ministries. In many cases it's clear what needs to be done, but for political reasons, it's not being done. Too much heat and too much bad publicity - not to mention too little payoff in the end for the politician who fights the good fight.

Why do you think Native Affairs, or whatever we're calling it today, is a consistent mess? Do you think every single government ministers who has held the portfolio over the past thirty years has been entirely ignorant of the problems there? Nope. It's a mess because it would be a huge, multi years long fight to clean it up. And what is the payout years later? Will the voters reward a minister and government who went through the years of strife and fights with native leaders? Nope. They really don't care that much. As long as there's no natives rioting on the TV screen they're happy.

As to immigration, I have always blamed the politicians. And to a lesser extent, the public for the politicians they put in power. Immigration is designed with voting trends in mind, not the welfare of the nation.

[geoffrey]

Well, yeah, but you don't know what you're talking about. Nor does August

First of all, the union is called PSAC, not CUPE. CUPE is the Ontario civil servants union.

Actually CUPE is a Candian civil servants union. http://cupe.ca/locations

But your right, it does appear that the Union in charge of these areas is PSAC, another massive union that could destroy all productivity remaining in the government within 5 minutes of the government bringing in replacement workers or something for another area's strike.

It's far too dangerous to our country to have unions of this size.

So we're stuck with a terribly inefficient and unresponsive beuraucracy forever.

We can change that.

Let's get on that.

[Catchme]

I have to agree largely with Argus although I find it rather strange that he suddenly blames politicians for the problems in immigration but largely exempts them of blame in other areas.

I'm merely pointing out that in this area, those who say the bureacracy is bloated with lazy union members who are responsible for screwing everything up are dead wrong.

The disorganization in the federal public service is due to self-serving, lifer executives, and craven politicians who really only care about short-term political interests - as opposed to the general welfare of the nation - or their ministries. In many cases it's clear what needs to be done, but for political reasons, it's not being done. Too much heat and too much bad publicity - not to mention too little payoff in the end for the politician who fights the good fight.

Excellent post!

Saturn was also correct about the silly Albertan voters who refused to send in their census. All funding from the feds to provinces is based upon the census. Those who do not fill them out are depriving their provinces and themselves of proper funding. They are only penalizing themselves. Ridiculous really.

[geoffrey]

Saturn was also correct about the silly Albertan voters who refused to send in their census. All funding from the feds to provinces is based upon the census. Those who do not fill them out are depriving their provinces and themselves of proper funding. They are only penalizing themselves. Ridiculous really.

I'm sure it's not just Albertans, Catchme, no matter how well that'd play into Canada's psyche.

As well, his main issue with it is Bernier cutting Stats Can's budget. Well, if it can be cut every year and we only have a small problem like this every 4, we're doing good. Every government department could be slashed in half and still be productive if they had private sector non-union pressure to do so.

[Catchme]

Statistics Canada is considering hiring a small army of out-of-province enumerators to chase down the 250,000 Albertans who haven't filled out census forms.

Statistics Canada usually collects the information it needs by mid-July, but this year census staff expect to be working into August, knocking on the doors of tardy Albertans.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/edmonton/story/20...us-alberta.html

[geoffrey]

Statistics Canada is considering hiring a small army of out-of-province enumerators to chase down the 250,000 Albertans who haven't filled out census forms.

Statistics Canada usually collects the information it needs by mid-July, but this year census staff expect to be working into August, knocking on the doors of tardy Albertans.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/edmonton/story/20...us-alberta.html

250,000 Albertans is only slightly below the national average. Of course, this draws a CBC story... people in Ontario just LOVE to come out against Alberta every chance they get, especially when it's over something so pathetic as this. 93% rate of return vs. 96% nationally. Whoop-de-do. Maybe it's because Albertans are busy working, while the RoC enjoys much higher numbers of part-time and unemployed people, with much more time to fill out the form?? Who knows. It doesn't matter. It's 3% lower than the national average.

If we assume the national average applies to Ontario, we have 400,000 there that haven't filled out forms! ARG!! Those bastards!!! Let's make a national symbol out of them and have them be the whipping boy of a ridiculous public employee issue.

One day you'll realise that you should look into news stories a little more and figure out what they are real saying and how much is bullshit spin.

[Saturn]

250,000 Albertans is only slightly below the national average. Of course, this draws a CBC story... people in Ontario just LOVE to come out against Alberta every chance they get, especially when it's over something so pathetic as this. 93% rate of return vs. 96% nationally. Whoop-de-do. Maybe it's because Albertans are busy working, while the RoC enjoys much higher numbers of part-time and unemployed people, with much more time to fill out the form?? Who knows.

What 3% below the national average? Do you realize that less than 10% of people in Ft.Mac had filled out their forms before enumerators had to be flown in to chase them around? Whoop-de-do, it takes 10 minutes to fill out the form but hard-working Albertans can't be bothered to do it. And then you and August whine and complain about the census being late.

Every government department could be slashed in half and still be productive if they had private sector non-union pressure to do so.

They sure could if the ministers and top management stopped handing out contracts to friends in the private sector for nothing. The gun registry, the HRDC boondoggle, the hundreds of millions DND lost, the sponsorship scandal, it's all money that went to private companies who didn't do heck for it. The guys at the passport office didn't have anything to do with that.

[mikedavid00]

In examining the federal register of Social Insurance Numbers, she noted that as of last June the number of usable SINs exceeded the estimate of the Canadian population aged 30 and older by about 2.9 million.

Yes. I've said this over and over that we have a massive amount of illegals and I forcasted about 20,000 a year. People just laughed at me. But this doesn't suprise me in the least. It's just something that I already 'know'.

SIN cards are problematic. I have heard too many anecdotal stories of people receiving various benefits (disability, pension or other) while living abroad or not being otherwise entitled.

Yes I can name 3 people I know of that are in the country illegally. They are everwhere here. The difference is that they have SIN cards and can work unlike the illegal Mexicans.

The auditor found the agency had not come up with ways to easily check the identity data on birth and citizenship certificates against the documents' original source.

That goes without saying. No suprises for me. Almost everyone here is faking papers and English tests to get in.

Statistics Canada shows that average incomes of recent immigrant cohorts are well below those of Canadians with similar demographic characteristics, even 10 years after their date of immigration.

I've pointed this out in many, many other of my posts. Geoffery would still like to believe that many of these people own businesses and want lower taxes. Yes.. maybe 0.8% of them. People are coming here to live, not work.

These facts are important because Canada has a pervasive welfare system and it is no longer true that immigrants do not affect the incomes of Canadians directly.

Again I pointed out a report from the Frasier institute which proved that immigration is having a devistating effect on our welfare state and health services. I've proved this in other posts. Immigration is litteraly bankrupting our country slowly over time. In 10 years we simply won't be able to sustain the people we're letting in .

800,000 are waiting to come here. We do NOT have jobs for these poeple. Oh wait.. we do, they just refuse to work them.

Canada’s welfare system relies on a highly progressive personal income structure and provides universally accessible free government benefits.

I would say that we spend about 70B-100B a year to foster immigrants into Canada. Yes that's right. This is when accounting for schooling, infrastructer, and healtchcare. People are only lookin at welfare alone.

Our federal (and Quebec) bureaucrats don't accept the right immigrants. There are 6 billion people in the world and many would qualify, if they ever made it physically to Canada, under our arbitrary refugee criteria. We must be more hard-headed in choosing who we allow in.

Amen.

We ned labor workers. We need non-skilled laborers on work permits.

We don't need third world Univeristy intillectuals who feel they are entitled to the highest paying white collar jobs. Yes. Jobs that Canada DOES NOT HAVE for even Canadians.

Our federal politicians should tell the civil servants they've hired to:

You live in Canada. You have no say. Go vote, you will only get the same.

This country is corrupt, broken, and out of control. I'm regretting living here daily and would love to leave to the US where I can become a citizen and take part in voting on how my tax dollars are spent.

No one can say the sentence 'Canada is a great country' without either lying or feeling akwarrd saying it.

Canada is not a great country and it's not a country to be proud of.

Why?

Not because of politicians, immigration, policy, and the civil service. But simply because we let our own citizens die on waiting lists.

Oh yeah, all the above ARE directly involved. So yeah.. our country DOES really suck.

[mikedavid00]

Maybe it's because Albertans are busy working

lol..

Last census I got I put it ontop of the fridge and found it a year later when cleaning the house. I didn't fill it out. I was too busy working and getting stuff done to fill it out.

[guyser]

We ned labor workers. We need non-skilled laborers on work permits.

We don't need third world Univeristy intillectuals who feel they are entitled to the highest paying white collar jobs. Yes. Jobs that Canada DOES NOT HAVE for even Canadians.

This country is corrupt, broken, and out of control. I'm regretting living here daily(so are we mike so are we) and would love to leave to the US where I can become a citizen and take part in voting on how my tax dollars are spent.

No one can say the sentence 'Canada is a great country' without either lying or feeling akwarrd saying it.

Canada is not a great country and it's not a country to be proud of.

Why?

Not because of politicians, immigration, policy, and the civil service. But simply because we let our own citizens die on waiting lists.

Oh yeah, all the above ARE directly involved. So yeah.. our country DOES really suck.

Took a break eh mikedavid?

But the more things change the more they stay the same.

So the Feds are plenty incompetent. Whats new about that?

But mikedavid, for the umpteenth time , where is this list of people dying on waiting lists? It is not true and you know it. One or two may have slipped thru, but no more than that.

And that aside, I suspect you to be an astute guy, and astute guys know who to vote for and when to vote for , as I am sure you agree.

Oh...maybe you dont because , mikedavid, you did not vote in the last election. It wasn't because you were overseas, or in the hospital or so far from home you couldn't , it was because you would not get off the couch and line up to vote.

So really, do you think you have a voice ?

[Argus]

Well, yeah, but you don't know what you're talking about. Nor does August

First of all, the union is called PSAC, not CUPE. CUPE is the Ontario civil servants union.

Actually CUPE is a Candian civil servants union. http://cupe.ca/locations

Uhm, yes, which is what I said.

But your right, it does appear that the Union in charge of these areas is PSAC, another massive union that could destroy all productivity remaining in the government within 5 minutes of the government bringing in replacement workers or something for another area's strike.

It's far too dangerous to our country to have unions of this size.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'm not even sure YOU know what you're talking about. PSAC is more a collection of unions. For example, a worker might belong to the Union of Taxation Employees. That is their union. That is what their union card says. But UTE is a member of the Public Service Alliance, so they are members of PSAC through UTE. Second, no one has ever advocated bringing in replacement workers for the civil service. Why would they? And how could they? Most jobs are a little too specialized to employ replacement workers, and the replacements wouldn't have the proper security clearances either. And in my experience, few managers have any idea about what the nuts and bolts of their employees jobs are anyway, so it isn't like they could teach replacement workers.

Second, your big rant about the public service and program inefficiencies can not in any way be laid at the feet of union workers, as I have already explained.

[August1991]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'm not even sure YOU know what you're talking about.

Argus, you have used this argument several times and I find it presumptuous and irritating.

According to you, Ottawa bureaucrats are the experts and the rest of us simply don't understand the complexities (the nuance) of how government works. We can't even get the acronyms right when referring to public sector unions.

I started this thread with several examples of serious incompetence. And you claim that Ottawa bureaucrats are the experts and know what they're talking about? I beg to differ. If they're so competent and professional, why have they issued so many SINs?

Argus, you blame the senior managers or politicians. (I notice that you didn't blame francophone promotion this time.) I hold the politicians accountable (what else can I do?) In fact, having spent time in the federal bureaucracy, I have met my share of space cadet receptionists. If I were to be honest, the Canadian federal government is an atrocious mix of well meaning but incompetent employees working for mindless managers far removed from agenda-obsessed political masters. A dysfunctional family is a Disneyland holiday compared to Ottawa. Or rather, Ottawa is a dysfunctional family's trip to Disneyland believing that Disneyland is the real world.

To be honest, I don't know what the solution is. But I want federal politicians to organize the affairs of the federal government competently. No more billion dollar boondoggles - airports, gun registries and so on.

Canada is a phenomenally rich country. We have every natural resource anyone could want. Canadians have inherited the laws and institutions - and a basic respect of them - that are the basic elements of civilized wealth. We share a continent with peaceful neighbours who represent no threat to us.

And then, our federal bureaucracy pours all these advantages down the drain and ordinary Canadians end up with a standard of living equal to Belgium. That's the simple truth.

Again I pointed out a report from the Frasier institute which proved that immigration is having a devistating effect on our welfare state and health services. I've proved this in other posts.

MikeDave, once again, you entirely miss the point.

This thread is about why our federal bureaucracy is so incompetent. Instead, you turn it into a rant against immigrants.

MD, you are a one-trick pony. You blame immigrants for all the ills in Canada. Global warming? Immigrants. Terrorism? Immigrants. Metric system? Immgrants.

Leafless is also a one-trick pony except he blames Quebec for all the ills in Canada. Global warming? Quebec. Terrorism? Quebec. Metric system? Quebec.

[Argus]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'm not even sure YOU know what you're talking about.

Argus, you have used this argument several times and I find it presumptuous and irritating

It's my response to a rambling rant replete with mistakes and poorly based assumptions.

According to you, Ottawa bureaucrats are the experts and the rest of us simply don't understand the complexities (the nuance) of how government works.

I realize English is your second language, but could you possibly find anywhere in there where I said anything which even begins to approach this? Perhaps you're having difficulties translating.

We can't even get the acronyms right when referring to public sector unions.

If someone is going to rant about the federal union and they don't even know what it's called, why would I attach any importance to the complaints? Clearly the writer has no clue what they're talking about.

I started this thread with several examples of serious incompetence. And you claim that Ottawa bureaucrats are the experts and know what they're talking about?

No, August, you wrote a rant about federal programs you say don't work, and then blamed it on "civil servants", then Geoffrey rote another rant blaming it on the rank and file workers and their union. That was just plain dumb. Anyone with any knowledge of bureaucracy knows the problems of policy and program failures lay with leadership, not the rank and file who implement those policies and programs. And NONE of the managers are unionized. I did not exempt them from blame. I merely tried to point out to you where the blame should lie.

I beg to differ. If they're so competent and professional, why have they issued so many SINs?

Because the problems in the system which caused extra SINS to be issued would require an expensive fix which the upper layers of management - and almost certainly the politicians - are unwilling to commit to.

Argus, you blame the senior managers or politicians. (I notice that you didn't blame francophone promotion this time.) I hold the politicians accountable (what else can I do?)

But you didn't hold them accountable. You blamed the "civil servants".

In fact, having spent time in the federal bureaucracy, I have met my share of space cadet receptionists.

No kidding? I hope they at least spoke French.

I have found a lot of space cadets out there in every possible service and job. Do you expect the federal public service to be different, for some reason?

If I were to be honest, the Canadian federal government is an atrocious mix of well meaning but incompetent employees working for mindless managers far removed from agenda-obsessed political masters.

Most of them actually are quite competent. There are some space cadets, true, but most of those are in HR - which seems to be a magnet for every overeducated nitwit who ever graduated from a social science course at a second rate Canadian university. Everything about HR is hideously expensive - in the name of fairness, lack of bias, equality, etc. etc., all the lefty buzzwords. And that means it takes a year to hire anyone - even as clerk. And promotions are based not on skill or talent but on ones ability to pass psychological tests put together by committees of social science graduates.

Everyone is hemmed in by rules, policies and procedures, however, which come down from above, and which often have something other than efficiency in mind. The new purchasing rules and policies which have come down since Chretien's Sponsorgate scandal, for instance, probably waste more money every year than he ever managed to steal.

To be honest, I don't know what the solution is.

Unsurprising. You don't really know how to define the problem. How could you have a solution?

But I want federal politicians to organize the affairs of the federal government competently. No more billion dollar boondoggles - airports, gun registries and so on.

Then elect smarter, more honest politicians, because those boondoggles are invariably their fault.

[Drea]

I think those who don't fill out the census form should forgo anything they get from the govt'. Their children should be pulled from school, their provincial medical cut off, etc. Because if one does not fill out the census one does not exist in the eyes of the govt and therefore should not need any govt services or funding.

The cenus is done so that federal transfer payments, etc can be accurately doled out. You are shooting yourself in the foot by not participating as your community stats would not accurately represent the community. For example, if a town with 4000 people, only 1000 filled out the census, then the govt believes that the population of the town is 1000 and services for 1000 (not the actual 4000) would be provided.

It's baffling that right wingers think it's perfectly ok to collect personal info from the internet or wiretap phones, but they draw the line at the census. I shake my head at the hypocracy.

[Remiel]

The world is coming to an end. It is certain. On one, tiny issue, I agree more with Argus than I do with August. If that isn't proof, I don't know what is.

Well, you're both kind of partly right, but in terms of the fault Argus is more correct. If you assume there are basically four different kinds of people in the system, good managers, bad managers, good employees and bad employees, the problem is that there are too many bad managers who are not dealing properly with the bad employees. Firing the good employees because of the bad employees would be stupid and suicidal. You either have to force the bad managers to become good managers, or you have to fire the bad managers. The issue of bad employees would be brought to an acceptable level if we could deal with the bad managers. Bad employees are the sympton, bad managers are the disease.

As for the argument on the name of the unions, it does neither of you credit, so why don't you just lay off it and stick to the issue of management?