$3.4 billion for Four Big Airplanes

[August1991]

Gov't inks $3.4B deal to buy Boeing jets : CTV

Updated Thu. Feb. 1 2007 9:31 PM ET

David Akin, CTV News

OTTAWA -- The government of Canada has finally inked a deal with Boeing Co. to buy four C-17 Globemasters, giant jets the Canadian Air Force will use to transport tanks and other large pieces of military equipment all over the world.

CTV News has learned that government officials will announce details of the contract on Friday at Canadian Forces Base Trenton in southern Ontario. National Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor and General Rick Hillier, the Chief of Defence Staff, will be in Trenton for the announcement.

CTV

I guess if we're going to have to send troops around the world, we're going to need planes to get them and their equipment there.

In the next few days, we're going to hear alot about spin-offs, job creation and regional benefits. Ignore it all. The very best "job creation scheme" would be to leave the money in my pocket and let me spend it. To create jobs, money doesn't have to take a circuitous route through Revenue Canada to some airplane factory worker.

But if we need to buy airplanes, then I want the best airplanes and airplane parts according to the quality-price, regardless of where they are made. That's all.

[Canuck E Stan]

But if we need to buy airplanes, then I want the best airplanes and airplane parts according to the quality-price, regardless of where they are made. That's all.

Some Quebecors think they should be built soley in Quebec.

[Ricki Bobbi]

But if we need to buy airplanes, then I want the best airplanes and airplane parts according to the quality-price, regardless of where they are made. That's all.

And I doubt we will hear a credible argument that wasn't the case in this deal

[jdobbin]

I guess if we're going to have to send troops around the world, we're going to need planes to get them and their equipment there.

In the next few days, we're going to hear alot about spin-offs, job creation and regional benefits. Ignore it all. The very best "job creation scheme" would be to leave the money in my pocket and let me spend it. To create jobs, money doesn't have to take a circuitous route through Revenue Canada to some airplane factory worker.

But if we need to buy airplanes, then I want the best airplanes and airplane parts according to the quality-price, regardless of where they are made. That's all.

I just wonder if we got the best price. The sole sourcing and voiding the rules on not interfering in the bidding process lends itself to trouble. Citing national security to it is not really acceptable.

The attempt by Quebec politicians to move the contracts once again out of Winnipeg made many Manitobans wonder why they supported the Tories in the first place.

[Robert777]

I guess if we're going to have to send troops around the world, we're going to need planes to get them and their equipment there.

In the next few days, we're going to hear alot about spin-offs, job creation and regional benefits. Ignore it all. The very best "job creation scheme" would be to leave the money in my pocket and let me spend it. To create jobs, money doesn't have to take a circuitous route through Revenue Canada to some airplane factory worker.

But if we need to buy airplanes, then I want the best airplanes and airplane parts according to the quality-price, regardless of where they are made. That's all.

I just wonder if we got the best price. The sole sourcing and voiding the rules on not interfering in the bidding process lends itself to trouble. Citing national security to it is not really acceptable.

The attempt by Quebec politicians to move the contracts once again out of Winnipeg made many Manitobans wonder why they supported the Tories in the first place.

That is one thing I never understood, always buying off Quebec and forgeting the rest of the country. I agree, we need these planes, I don't agree in always sending the work to Quebec. The Manitobans, as I remember lost the F18 refurish (which was cheaper), and Quebec got the business. The Tories, must want to save Charest's ass in the next provincial election.

PROUD TO BE A REFORMER, BUY A GUN AND PO A LIBERAL! :angry:

[August1991]

Some Quebecors think they should be built soley in Quebec.

Some Manitobans think they should be built in Manitoba.

I say build them in China if it's cheaper and the quality is good.

[HistoryBuff44]

Some Quebecors think they should be built soley in Quebec.

Some Manitobans think they should be built in Manitoba.

I say build them in China if it's cheaper and the quality is good.

Final Assembly for aircraft this large is not done in canada. remember C 17 globemaster is a large aircraft, I suppose some stuff like avionics or landing gear and such will be done here, but it all is shipped to the large assembly hangers in the states.

Part of the cost is a 20 year maintenance contract i beleive. And we do need to be able to resupply ourselves, right now we lease russian or american aircraft to airlift large cargo.

[Canuck E Stan]

I say build them in China if it's cheaper and the quality is good.

I agree,

As long as they come with a 160,000 kilometer/5 year warranty which ever comes first.

[jdobbin]

Some Manitobans think they should be built in Manitoba.

I say build them in China if it's cheaper and the quality is good.

Manitoba has never asked for the whole contract to be serviced in Manitoba. It is, however, the largest Boeing plant in Canada.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/overview/overview5.html

China doesn't build an aircraft that large. The Russians do but the Canadian military ruled it out.

[jdobbin]

Final Assembly for aircraft this large is not done in canada. remember C 17 globemaster is a large aircraft, I suppose some stuff like avionics or landing gear and such will be done here, but it all is shipped to the large assembly hangers in the states.

Part of the cost is a 20 year maintenance contract i beleive. And we do need to be able to resupply ourselves, right now we lease russian or american aircraft to airlift large cargo.

Manitoba does much of the work you describe.

There used to be a Boeing plant in Ontario but it was sold in 2005.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/news/2005...nr_050803g.html

[HistoryBuff44]

Final Assembly for aircraft this large is not done in canada. remember C 17 globemaster is a large aircraft, I suppose some stuff like avionics or landing gear and such will be done here, but it all is shipped to the large assembly hangers in the states.

Part of the cost is a 20 year maintenance contract i beleive. And we do need to be able to resupply ourselves, right now we lease russian or american aircraft to airlift large cargo.

Manitoba does much of the work you describe.

It would be great to see sub contracts all over canada. In fact I think it was part of the negotiated contract with Boeing that some of the work be done here.

[Catchme]

Why do we need 4 of them?

[August1991]

As long as they come with a 160,000 kilometer/5 year warranty which ever comes first.

That's no joke.

Most Canadians spend their money according to the price-quality, regardless of origin. (That's how almost all Quebecers buy cars.) The government should do no different.

The feds are not so demented as to insist that the aircraft in question be constructed entirely in this country. Rather, the winning bidder is obliged to spend precisely the amount of the contract in Canada, whether on the construction of that plane or any other, including passenger planes.

First question: Why the same amount? No reason, except that it looks good politically. It makes it look as if the government had contracted with Canadian suppliers to build planes in Canada, rather than paid a foreign supplier to build planes elsewhere. But Boeing didn’t get to be the world’s largest aircraft manufacturer by doing things for free. If it wanted to spend billions of dollars constructing aircraft in Canada, it would. If it has to be forced to, chances are it doesn’t. But of course it can’t be forced to. The only way the government can make it do what it otherwise wouldn’t is to pay it, by inflating the value of the contract.

Andrew Coyne

IOW, if the feds force Boeing to source in Canada, that will inflate the cost of the planes and we won't be getting value for money.

[HistoryBuff44]

Why do we need 4 of them?

If ever a real hotspot or emergency occured it would take far too long for just one to resupply or reinforce. Of course the argument could be made then that 4 isnt enough either...

each one has roughly 130,000 pound payload, with 4 you can get a pretty steady stream of supplies moving.

[HistoryBuff44]

Final Assembly for aircraft this large is not done in canada. remember C 17 globemaster is a large aircraft, I suppose some stuff like avionics or landing gear and such will be done here, but it all is shipped to the large assembly hangers in the states.

Part of the cost is a 20 year maintenance contract i beleive. And we do need to be able to resupply ourselves, right now we lease russian or american aircraft to airlift large cargo.

Manitoba does much of the work you describe.

There used to be a Boeing plant in Ontario but it was sold in 2005.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/news/2005...nr_050803g.html

Yes, exactly, it says in that article that the plant did some sub- assembly and sheet metal work.

[Catchme]

Why do we need 4 of them?

If ever a real hotspot or emergency occured it would take far too long for just one to resupply or reinforce. Of course the argument could be made then that 4 isnt enough either...

each one has roughly 130,000 pound payload, with 4 you can get a pretty steady stream of supplies moving.

Well, there is a difference between 1 and 4. Why not 2 or 3?

1 dedicated to Dart and 2 for the Military?

And why all 4 in Trenton? Where is DART stationed at?

[jdobbin]

Well, there is a difference between 1 and 4. Why not 2 or 3?

1 dedicated to Dart and 2 for the Military?

And why all 4 in Trenton? Where is DART stationed at?

Trenton is where DART is located.

[jbg]

I say build them using only workers that speak French, and little, if any, English. I say linguistics and culture should outweigh military and quality considerations.

[HistoryBuff44]

Well, there is a difference between 1 and 4. Why not 2 or 3?

1 dedicated to Dart and 2 for the Military?

And why all 4 in Trenton? Where is DART stationed at?

sounds like kingston On. Not really sure why 4, maybe they got a deal from Boeing if they got 4 or maybe that was the number that our military came up with.

[Ricki Bobbi]

It would be great to see sub contracts all over canada. In fact I think it was part of the negotiated contract with Boeing that some of the work be done here.

Yes, they are known as Industrial Regional Benefits. IRBs. For every dollar of the contract Boeing must spend a dollar in canada buying goods and services.

The Bloc Québecois was asking for 60% of the IRBs b/c 60% of the Canadian aerospace industry is in Québec.

According to the CBC Québec will get 30%, the maritimes 10%, with a big chunk of the rest going to Manitoba.

Seems like payback for the CF-18 debacle.

There are three or four seats in MB that could now be in play as Conservative pickups....

[Catchme]

Thanks for the DART info, however why wouldn't at least 1 be stationed on thw west coast?

And are there really going to be that many chances to use 4 of them, or are we going full out military industrial complex war machine?

[Canuck E Stan]

Thanks for the DART info, however why wouldn't at least 1 be stationed on thw west coast?

And are there really going to be that many chances to use 4 of them, or are we going full out military industrial complex war machine?

With Global warming happening we'll need to move people from Ontario to places that are really cool.

[jdobbin]

Thanks for the DART info, however why wouldn't at least 1 be stationed on thw west coast?

And are there really going to be that many chances to use 4 of them, or are we going full out military industrial complex war machine?

I have no idea why. Perhaps the news tomorrow will have some further details.

[geoffrey]

And are there really going to be that many chances to use 4 of them, or are we going full out military industrial complex war machine?

I'm thinking maybe being able to response to a natural disaster in Canada.

Remember how embarassing it was for Bush to have the lack of resources to respond to Katrina? I'm sure the Canadian government doesn't want to be caught off guard. The purchase of these aircraft make moving vast numbers of troops within Canada alot easier, providing a much more timely and comprehensive response to civil emergencies.

It just takes one situation where 4 are needed in an emergency for the government to be called incompetent for only buying 3.

It's a good idea, the price isn't outrageous from what it seems, if it includes a maintenance agreement.

[Saturn]

Some Quebecors think they should be built soley in Quebec.

Some Manitobans think they should be built in Manitoba.

I say build them in China if it's cheaper and the quality is good.

Final Assembly for aircraft this large is not done in canada. remember C 17 globemaster is a large aircraft, I suppose some stuff like avionics or landing gear and such will be done here, but it all is shipped to the large assembly hangers in the states.

Part of the cost is a 20 year maintenance contract i beleive. And we do need to be able to resupply ourselves, right now we lease russian or american aircraft to airlift large cargo.

And renting aircraft costs us less than buying our own. Now why do we need cheaper planes from China when the most cost-effective option is to rent planes when needed and let others take care of the maintenance and risk involved?